Fe Fakeness

[Ginkgo]

[MENTION=8031]Ginkgo[/MENTION]'s evil plan worked.

 

[highlander]

To be honest, I wouldn't expect it to happen or be anywhere nearly as overt if or when it does happen, if the Fe-user is an ISFJ.

In my experience (which is narrow but deep), it is there. There is an expectation for one to do, think and feel as one ought to. Disapproval is subtle but is absolutely felt by others.

you guys are calm and sensitive and sweet.

Yes, yes and yes.

 

[Lord Guess]

If TJs and FPs only use Fi, and Fi invariably causes Fi users to assume that displays of emotion are fake, then are demonstrations of Fe fake?

I don't think so, but it would explain a lot in my dealings with a lot of people I now think are Fi users.

 

[Ginkgo]

but it would explain a lot in my dealings with a lot of people I now think are Fi users.

y

 

[Lord Guess]

y

Just because I seemed somewhat insincere to them; we'd usually get along quite well, but they would often feel as though I wasn't expressing what I really felt, or that I never had all my cards on the table. Actually, more like they could never see how big my hand was, if that makes sense.

 

[Giggly]

The ESFJs' description read: "The ESFJ really cares that you really care about how their day went."

That doesn't sound very Fe.

 

[uumlau]

That doesn't sound very Fe.

It's entirely true for ESFJs. My ESFJ ex-wife would regale me with tales from her work. She would be miffed if I gave any indication that I might not be paying close attention (though she'd be so into her narrative that she'd often not notice). Then she would want to hear about my day. Her workdays usually map well to (Fe-style) narratives, interacting with people, griping about people, expressing how things went well or badly with people. My workdays don't map that well: my work is 80% all in my head, where I'm trying to solve problems that most others would be disinclined to even contemplate. There are maybe one or two short meetings, and otherwise I'm trying to make things work right. Asking me to tell a story about my workday is equivalent to telling me to do all that work again (by thinking about it), but also to go through the chore of translating it into words that others might have a chance of comprehending. And so, she would feel alienated from me because I couldn't share my workday in that way.

I would guess that it's an Fe-Si thing. Remember that for introverted perceiving and extroverted judging, if the introverted perceiving comes first, then it's "reflect, then do". If extroverted judging is first, it's "do, then reflect." Fe dominant is of quite a different degree than Fe aux, much more intense.

 

[011235813]

In my experience, much of [MENTION=9310]uumlau[/MENTION]'s post seems to apply to ENFJs as well, in the sense that they also get offended if they realise you're not paying attention to them and that they also emphasize the importance of reciprocity. What they expect in terms of reciprocity is slightly more loosely defined because they seem to make some allowances for different thought and communication styles. In my experience, that can possibly be even more invasive, especially when they're trying to extract ideas from you that haven't fully matured yet. Being able to draw those sorts of revelations out from others seems to be a very important part of their self-validation, so being persistently cagy can leave them feeling slighted, especially if they're close to you.

 

[sculpting]

I agree, mostly, yes ... but I didn't frame it well either as to my meaning either ...

I am not talking about any kind of manipulation here, and it wouldn't be without an abundance of passion.

And this isn't for the small stuff, the little daily things that just need a gentle nudge here and there.

Anyhoodle, I'll try to explain later but for the moment, I just wanted to share that I somehow didn't explain myself well up there and will come back to this.

On no worries Miss PB! Later on after some thought I realized that all you would need to do is communicate the Fi cause..I'd either agree and then help you. or disagrre and discuss. Additionally, i have also been taking the slightly less direct route myself nowdays, depending upon the topic. I dont prefer it, but it can be more effective-it is all about the auidiance, I suspect.

I understand this now. I'm sorry you've had to go through that.

I just don't do these sorts of things to others in my real life (but it's done to me sometimes and it really hurts so I truly do understand) so I'm unable to help in any way here. I guess my Fe is just different than that. The other problem is I'm just not well versed in typology stuff, in order to help. The INFJs are better versed in it than me, so I just let them handle it. But yeah, I guess I am a little sensitive, and it doesn't help that I'm never thinking about typology or the fact that blanket judgments happen.

Awww, thanks for understanding-that is more than enough honestly. I also think, as you noted, that we can be senstive to others, without really understanding why, and not fall into some of these I spent about five years with an ISFJ as an office mate and she was so different from me, but also really wonderful. In retrospect, some of the differences could have been pedicted by the Fi/Fe divide, but I always ignored tham as individual preferences, and loved her all the same for being a beautiful person. In the same way, she really loved me and would give me advice, but it never felt hurtful. I suspect she held back at times, ignoring little things I did that were annoying as they were just "me". Without any silly theory, we could just sort of co-exist and care for each other...

Additionally, as much as we bemoan the hurts we feel at Fe, the Fi folks do things that hurt our FJ and TP friends very often, although we dont realize it at the time-we tend to neglect those continous emo bonds and invalidate the Fe values you guys hold as valued, since we dont always understand them. My entp often share how loist she feels when trying to live in a house of ISTJs-she cant find the emotional connection she needs. She has been my primary motivation fro learning Fe skills as I want to give her the type of emotional interaction that she needs from our friendship...lol, but it is so funny at times as it is like trying to speak spanish.

 

[Eric B]

It's entirely true for ESFJs. My ESFJ ex-wife would regale me with tales from her work. She would be miffed if I gave any indication that I might not be paying close attention (though she'd be so into her narrative that she'd often not notice). Then she would want to hear about my day. Her workdays usually map well to (Fe-style) narratives, interacting with people, griping about people, expressing how things went well or badly with people. My workdays don't map that well:

I can certainly testify to this too.

 

[Glycerine]

[MENTION=4398]Giggly[/MENTION].... no you turned to the dark side.

 

[Glycerine]

In my experience, much of [MENTION=9310]uumlau[/MENTION]'s post seems to apply to ENFJs as well, in the sense that they also get offended if they realise you're not paying attention to them and that they also emphasize the importance of reciprocity. What they expect in terms of reciprocity is slightly more loosely defined because they seem to make some allowances for different thought and communication styles. In my experience, that can possibly be even more invasive, especially when they're trying to extract ideas from you that haven't fully matured yet. Being able to draw those sorts of revelations out from others seems to be a very important part of their self-validation, so being persistently cagy can leave them feeling slighted, especially if they're close to you.

guilty.... reciprocation is key for me. If people aren't close to me, I couldn't give a rat's ass though. Not in a guilt trip-y sort of way by any means but since I try to give my full attention to the other person, I sort of expect it back from them... if I actually care about them (I'm only close to 1.5 people.... LOLZ). I am not sure about the self-validation thing on my part. Can you please elaborate on that?

 

[Giggly]

Awww, thanks for understanding-that is more than enough honestly. I also think, as you noted, that we can be senstive to others, without really understanding why, and not fall into some of these I spent about five years with an ISFJ as an office mate and she was so different from me, but also really wonderful. In retrospect, some of the differences could have been pedicted by the Fi/Fe divide, but I always ignored tham as individual preferences, and loved her all the same for being a beautiful person. In the same way, she really loved me and would give me advice, but it never felt hurtful. I suspect she held back at times, ignoring little things I did that were annoying as they were just "me". Without any silly theory, we could just sort of co-exist and care for each other...

Additionally, as much as we bemoan the hurts we feel at Fe, the Fi folks do things that hurt our FJ and TP friends very often, although we dont realize it at the time-we tend to neglect those continous emo bonds and invalidate the Fe values you guys hold as valued, since we dont always understand them. My entp often share how loist she feels when trying to live in a house of ISTJs-she cant find the emotional connection she needs. She has been my primary motivation fro learning Fe skills as I want to give her the type of emotional interaction that she needs from our friendship...lol, but it is so funny at times as it is like trying to speak spanish.

You're a sweetheart.
I guess all we can do is keep working on it. It helps a lot when there are two willing people instead of just one or none.

[MENTION=4398]Giggly[/MENTION].... no you turned to the bad side.

Nu uh. Fe 4 lyfe.
I posted about what I understand. There are still things I don't understand.

guilty.... reciprocation is key for me. If people aren't close to me, I couldn't give a rat's ass though. Not in a guilt trip-y sort of way by any means but since I try to give my full attention to the other person, I sort of expect it back from them... if I actually care about them. I am not sure about the self-validation thing on my part. Can you please elaborate on that?

I think they get upset that reciprocation is expected when it wasn't their idea in the first place (at least for the husbands and ex husbands). I get the feeling that they don't really need that sort of attention, and therefore, don't want to be saddled with the expectation to give that sort of attention, and worse, be blamed when they aren't giving it. It wasn't their idea because they probably don't value that anyway and they show that they care in a completely different way, and wish for the difference to be acknowledged and accepted.

the funny thing is, my INTJ did like attention but not necessarily an excessive amount or he'd grow uncomfortable, but what he liked even more was giving me his full attention and he would get upset with me if I DIDN'T ramble on endlessly about my day and harass me to do it more if I didn't have much to say.

 

[Glycerine]

[MENTION=4398]Giggly[/MENTION]: hmmm.... interesting. Are we talking about reciprocating in a general sense or for specific instances of emotional bonding? I bet there are some gender differences here too. I could see myself in Senza's description for describing the dynamic between me and a couple people but my ESFJ dad could care less about that stuff.

 

[Giggly]

[MENTION=4398]Giggly[/MENTION]: hmmm.... interesting. Are we talking about reciprocating in a general sense or for specific instances of emotional bonding? I bet there are some gender differences here too.

I thought there might be gender differences too but I'm really not sure, considering that such a large percentage of females are Fe users. I'm not sure what female Fi users are like. Maybe they don't do that. I don't know.

I would think that an Fe user would consider mutually connecting under any circumstances with a mate part of emotional bonding as well. So it follows that if you're not "sharing", then you're overriding an opportunity to emotional bond in her mind.

When you disagree, she might take that as an erosion of the bond (assuming there is a bond in the first place) and overreact, thinking something valuable between you two has been lost.

 

[Redbone]

That doesn't sound very Fe.

True but it sounds very ESFJ.

 

[ThatGirl]

Why did an icy icy chill just run down my spine?

 

[Giggly]

Why did an icy icy chill just run down my spine?

I don't know, why?

True but it sounds very ESFJ.

I read your earlier post in this thread and I also remember your other response about your ex in my thread about... whatever the heck that thread was about. I'm curious, did you ever feel close to your ex?

 

[ThatGirl]

I don't know, why?

 

[Glycerine]

I thought there might be gender differences too but I'm really not sure, considering that such a large percentage of females are Fe users. I'm not sure what female Fi users are like. Maybe they don't do that. I don't know.

I would think that an Fe user would consider mutually connecting under any circumstances with a mate part of emotional bonding as well. So it follows that if you're not "sharing", then you're overriding an opportunity to emotional bond in her mind.

When you disagree, she might take that as an erosion of the bond (assuming there is a bond in the first place) and overreact, thinking something valuable between you two has been lost.

ok, I don't relate to this thing you call "emotional bonding". I fail the Fe-domhood. enneagram 5 FTW.... haha, not really.... I typically feel uncomfortable.