[NT] Fe and Fi, the NT version

[Oaky]

I shall be boring and quote sources
This is for understanding the Fi

As a Tertiary Function, Fi typically leads ITJs to retreat into solitary actions that have no constructive worldly effect but are aimed at providing a justification for calling themselves good people. Another example is obsession with the purity of one's soul. For example, being a vegetarian while working at Taco Bell--not out of any great love for animals (the person might hardly know anything about what cows are like), but to be able to say, "Well, at least I never ate any animals." Or engaging in pointless acts of honor, like maintaining super-self-control or "doing one's duty" or going down with the ship. Nothing is gained by going down with the ship; it's a hyper-introverted act aimed at providing a rationalization for one's goodness without regard to real-world consequences. Nearly all of these tertiary-Fi acts involve refraining from action viewed as unethical rather than taking positive action that would accomplish something. They're a retreat from the world--or rather, a rationalization for disregarding worldly matters.


As an Inferior Function, Fi typically leads ETJs to acts of self-destructive hedonism, creation of opera-like drama in their lives and the lives of those around them, obsession with "integrity" (like going down with the ship), instant and irresponsible abandonment of anything they don't like (the opposite of going down with the ship), and bizarre solitary acts of atonement for the harms they've done to others. Sometimes inferior-Fi leads ETJs to preach and even practice a sort of hyper-selfishness, e.g. Ayn Rand and the Landmark Forum. "I'm doing fine, so why should I give a damn about you?" (Very different from highly developed Fi, which leads you to see all people as connected and the highest joy of life as the experience of that connection.)

 

[BlahBlahNounBlah]

Very different from highly developed Fi, which leads you to see all people as connected and the highest joy of life as the experience of that connection.

But I also think all people are connected and there's joy in experiencing that connection (in theory). Is the "in theory" part what makes me not an Fi?

 

[Athenian200]

Nearly all of these tertiary-Fi acts involve refraining from action viewed as unethical rather than taking positive action that would accomplish something. They're a retreat from the world--or rather, a rationalization for disregarding worldly matters.

Funny... I think we came to the opposite conclusion in the other thread.

Oh! Okay, I get it. For INTJs, moral codes are about performing actions that produce positive results, whereas for me a moral code is about avoiding actions that produce negative results. Basically, I consider inaction to be inherently more moral than action (thus an action is something that can be immoral, while failing to act isn't), whereas INTJs seem to have the opposite prejudice.

Yes, you got it. Though your view of morality as being about avoiding negative results is absolutely alien to me. Failure to act seems quite immoral to me (in many situations). We are clearly on very different sides of a divide there.

Weird.

 

[BlahBlahNounBlah]

^^^ I think morality is relative. Inaction can cause as much harm as action and vice versa, so they're all the same to me. It's important to be aware of when each is necessary.

 

[matilda]

Would Fi mean you care that Woody Allen married his daughter? Or would Fe care about that? Or would they care for different reasons? (Fe because it's considered destructive to society? Fi because ...?

It doesn't sit right with you? It feels wrong. Internal moral compass, that sort of thing.

I think you got Fe right.

 

[wildcat]

I'm not so sure that's Fi. I have a similar thing, where I get mad if someone starts talking about a person I really hate. I'll go "Don't even mention that name around me! Do you know what they did to me? Well, let me tell you..." There's a chance I might go on a tirade about everything I hate about that person at that point. They usually don't mention the person again after that.

I usually don't get disgusted by things so much, though it can grate on my nerves if people continually talk about sex, bodily humor, and other gross/crude things. Once or twice isn't a big deal, but if they keep at it, it can get old fast. It's because I'm annoyed by the inappropriate behavior and accompanying attitude rather than actual disgust, though. I don't feel a visceral response in my gut or anything.

It is Fi all right. A key is a counter lock.

In a dichotomy there is the agent and the object.
A dichotomy manifests in the framework of a counter dichotomy only.
IFP = Fi Ne; Fi Se.
IFJ = Ni Fe; Si Fe.

A paradox is not the alternative to reason.
It is the alternative to dogma.

 

[Ace_]

I can only describe my Fi.

I tolerate people until the final drop. When they reach that point of no return they are crossed off and they no longer exist in my life. I know that these people are wrong and that interaction between us will never bring anything good. It's a strong conviction and I give them no second chance.

I believe feelings are something sacred which should be hidden until there's a perfect moment to express them. And they always have to be 100% true and genuine. I have a fear of expressing them because I'm very sensitive about it appearing sappy and superficial, or even worse, getting rejected or not receiving the appropriate response. ESFJs sometimes make me sick because of their fake and excessive Fe. There's a perfect word in my language for it but I don't know if there's an English word for it.

To people with Ti, Te seems superficial. It's the same with Fi users, Fe just doesn't seem as deep as Fi.

I also believe that emotions should be controlled and I'm a master of controlling my emotional responses. But that's because Fi is my 4th function.

 

[entropie]

I liked those two descriptions:

Extraverted Feeling

Introverted Feeling

What I found intresting is how they phrased the description of Fe:

p. 40: "When we use Feeling in an Extraverted way, it facilitates a complex social vocabulary, by which we express and recognize the values we hold in common with others."

p. 318: "...organizing data by relatedness to ourselves."

p. 318: "Extraverted Feeling is conceptual and analytic. It encourages us to make rational choices, to measure our options for relationship against an external standard of behaviors. What distinguishes this function from Extraverted Thinking is the fact that relatedness involves human beings, not impersonal abstractions."

That gave me the idea that for example having high morales about some things, mustnt be a certain indicator for someone to be a NF or SJ for example. It is tho, after that description, possibly an indicator for Fe.

 

[Grungemouse]

Here's what I've seen.

INTP, inferior Fe:

1. A sudden need for emotional support under extreme stress.
2. Building frustration finally erupting in a virulent personal attack.
3. A tendency to assume that other people's personal opinions/rules of etiquette are meant to eliminate/devalue independent thought.

Those are my guesses, anyway...

1. True. During exam and coursework season, my stress led me to impulsively initiate a meet up with a group of friends I hadn't spoken to in a year. During this time I had a sudden demand for acceptance in an online community I've been a member of for 3 years. I also wanted to spend a lot more time with my parents than usual.

2. I'm not sure about this one. This may be due to the fact that it's been years since I've felt strong negative emotions against another person. My dad is an INTP however, and he has problems with displacing negative emotions on other people.

3. My friends want me to join Facebook. This may sound pathetic and irrational, but I strongly refuse because I feel they just want to keep track of my life, so I have no privacy of my own. And then there's the whole, "I don't want to do it because everyone else is doing it" thing.

 

[Ace_]

Fe users are the people who preach about morals. Fi users realize that morals are relative.

 

[bcvcdc]

ENTPs might not even exist, except as a concept.

Exactly this.

 

[Dying Acedia]

Huh, I wonder my personality agrees with the INTP concept then. My need for emotional connection seems deeper than what was mentioned though.

 

[Grungemouse]

Huh, I wonder my personality agrees with the INTP concept then. My need for emotional connection seems deeper than what was mentioned though.

Everyone has a need for deep emotional connections. How often or in what quantity depends on the person. I personally like deep connections with those I bond with, but in small doses every now and again.

 

[Asterion]

I've found that Fi in an ENTP will leave them unsure of the psychological distance between them and others (which has probably been seen in some profiles about the place). I read it a while ago and thought: wtf? It seems to mean that you don't really know how others see you or your actions without them saying it, it results in not knowing where you stand in a relation, and you probably end up crossing some borders that you shouldn't.

Fe supposedly makes us want to build a sort of atmosphere (or is what we use to build an atmosphere? not sure). It might be responsible for encouragement of others to get involved.

I've often completely ignored my convictions of others, and I've been just as friendly to them as I would anyone else, no idea what functions would cause that.

 

[jenocyde]

Here's what I've seen.

This is a great list, Ath. I've seen all of these in action.

You mean you're telling me that your previous experiences with someone and the emotional impression that they left on you doesn't effect you at all every time you interact with them?

Not at all. If you are in my life, I am accepting you as a whole, not as a series of events. Everyone has an off day or two. And like Blah said, I mostly just forget.

I've found that Fi in an ENTP will leave them unsure of the psychological distance between them and others (which has probably been seen in some profiles about the place). I read it a while ago and thought: wtf? It seems to mean that you don't really know how others see you or your actions without them saying it, it results in not knowing where you stand in a relation, and you probably end up crossing some borders that you shouldn't.

Fe supposedly makes us want to build a sort of atmosphere (or is what we use to build an atmosphere? not sure). It might be responsible for encouragement of others to get involved.

I've often completely ignored my convictions of others, and I've been just as friendly to them as I would anyone else, no idea what functions would cause that.

All of this, especially the bolded. Just last night I was reminded of how bullying my innocent questions can be. It is hard for me to read signals and if you don't tell me verbally to stop, then I will never stop. I fail.

 

[Gewitter27]

My Fe is a tube sock that fell behind the dryer.

 

[The_Liquid_Laser]

I'm having difficulty understanding what Fi is, and every time Fi vs. Fe is discussed in the NF forum, the distinctions get messy because they take every attempt at definition as personal attack (and in many cases, they are personal attacks).


So, For ENTP/INTP/ENTJ/INTJ, what do Fi and Fe actually do? How would I more easily recognize these functions in NTs in every day life?


Would Fi mean you care that Woody Allen married his daughter? Or would Fe care about that? Or would they care for different reasons? (Fe because it's considered destructive to society? Fi because ...? I don't know what Fi is so I don't know how to finish that, and I'm not certain I got Fe right, but I tried to imagine why I might care about that, and that was what I came up with. I don't care, by the way.)


So anyway ... a little help?

Here is my take on this whole thing. Feel free to be offended and take this as a personal attack if you like.

All people use all eight functions. Our type simply describes which functions we prefer. For example my type, ENTP, says that I'm an extravert who prefers Intuition the most. It also says I prefer to use Ti over Fi to support my intuition. That is all it means to be an ENTP. You can tell me what my tertiary and inferior functions are supposed to be, but the introverted or extraverted aspects of these functions are largely irrelevant.

Let me elaborate. My personal preference for functions as an ENTP is really Intuition -> Thinking -> Feeling -> Sensing. I say Ne is my dominant function because I am an extravert. Once you get to supposed tertiary and inferior functions the introversion/extraversion aspect is so subtle that it doesn't really matter. Type only describes preference and not ability, and in reality when we use the 6 other functions that we don't particularly prefer it is because real life demands we do so. When I use a clock or a tape measure I rely on Te. When someone throws me some keys I rely on Se to catch them. When I see starving children on TV my heart goes out to them and that is Fi. When I buy my wife flowers to show her I appreciate her, that is Fe.

All I can really say about Fe, Fi, Se and Si is that I prefer Feeling over Sensing. I prefer both Fe and Fi over Se and Si. However I since my first two preferences are Intuition and Thinking the introversion/extraversion aspect of Feeling and Sensing doesn't really matter to me. We all use all eight functions, and our type only describes the two we prefer the most.

 

[tinkerbell]

All I can really say about Fe, Fi, Se and Si is that I prefer Feeling over Sensing. I prefer both Fe and Fi over Se and Si. However I since my first two preferences are Intuition and Thinking the introversion/extraversion aspect of Feeling and Sensing doesn't really matter to me. We all use all eight functions, and our type only describes the two we prefer the most.

I have to say I struggle big time around here with people trying to identiy how they use a whole bunch of detailed functions. Yout thoughts above make total sense to me and the bigger brushed view actually is easier to get your selection process. Yes there will be times when the other fuctions show their weekness but thats is true of everyone, what is strong for one type is weak for another...

 

[Athenian200]

I've often completely ignored my convictions of others, and I've been just as friendly to them as I would anyone else, no idea what functions would cause that.

Sounds like Fe to me, though I could be biased.

Not at all. If you are in my life, I am accepting you as a whole, not as a series of events. Everyone has an off day or two. And like Blah said, I mostly just forget.

This is a good explanation of why I prefer Fe to Fi in the long run. Because I would rather people forgot about my past mistakes and accepted me as a whole person. So, I try to do the same for them. It can be harder if their past mistakes make me feel personally threatened, but that has less to do with Fi and more to do with Ni paranoia.

 

[Matthew_Z]

Here's what I've seen.

Why is it that you've written Inferior Fi and Fe in a significantly more negative light then Tertiary Fi and Fe?


Anyways, for my note comparison:

INTP, inferior Fe:

1. A sudden need for emotional support under extreme stress.
2. Building frustration finally erupting in a virulent personal attack.
3. A tendency to assume that other people's personal opinions/rules of etiquette are meant to eliminate/devalue independent thought.

1. I'm not I can at all relate to this one. Extreme stress appears to be a point where I attempt to remove emotions from the equation. Letting anyone near my possibly fragile emotions seems like the LAST thing I'd want to happen.
2. I'm not entirely sure what you mean by "personal attack." If you mean in the sense that I'd be questioning the integrity or whatnot of another individual, this would be another point I can't relate to. I've learned by now that personal attacks, especially in a formal debate, are always moot points. Sure, I may analyze a person to figure out why they believe what they do and how I should try to get through to them, but I've more than realized by now that a personal attack simply doesn't work. I prefer to fall back on my STRONGER weapons when the initial approach doesn't appear to be working.
3. Assume? Oh what a lethal word. At this point in life, I've realized that everyone has goals that they seldom go against. These goals reflect what a person believes to be "right." I've yet to meet a person that seriously believes eliminated independent thought is "good" or "right." Any action that appears to be using that motivation is usually just an attempt to accomplish another goal, a goal nearly always not mutually exclusive from independent thought.