Family Dynamics

[skimpit]

...

 

[Agent Washington]

...Very rare to see INTJ that identifies as Empath, given they're thinking sorts. Not that I'm questioning their typing. Merely remarking on rarity. I assume you know them better.

Either way, I suppose... Not getting along doesn't have to be a type thing. I suppose she's feeling sad because she's got these ... uh, hm. Preconceptions about roles. It is difficult to get along with people sometime. And that argument strikes me as if she's either not using Te (What you said appeals to common sense, IMO, but sometimes people don't react well to common sense for whatever reason, usually sentimental) or something, which is plain odd to me. Maybe she just wants to feel like a parent or something. Lots of parents somehow forget that their children are adults who can do things for themselves.

Uh. I guess I'm no help here. Just letting you know that you're not alone in having screwed up family dynamics.

 

[Totenkindly]

So this might turn into more of a type-me thread than I would like. But I will give information where applicable.

I'm not sure what type I am, so I'll give some background on how I think to show why it's important in the context of familial relations. I'm pretty sure I'm an introverted sensor, and as a result I can be quite stubborn. But my parents are also quite stubborn -- in their own ways -- and we tend to fight a lot.

So when my mom is telling me, "We have to go to the store," I instantly think, "Why?" and ask as much. She responds, "We need milk." And I say, "Why? We just bought a gallon last week." And she responds, "We need to buy some because your sister's coming into town and she uses a lot of it when she's here." So I respond, "Why can't she just buy some? She can't expect you to buy her all the milk when she uses up every last drop." And she responds, "Because that's what mothers do." So I say, "But why?"

And she gets frustrated, to the point of just shutting down and telling me, "End of conversation" and brooding quietly.

Well, she shut down on "Because that's what mothers do" and the rest is just filler.

She could be withdrawing from the conversation for various reasons, honestly. She might agree with you but feel she can't change because of her own expectations or your sister's. She might just feel like you both argue about everything, where she didn’t even plan to have an argument when she said “we” had to go to the store. She might not know what to say because she has no good answer to your question. She might feel that a mother and host should be providing food for visitors regardless, it's a sign of politeness and concern, and she doesn’t grasp why you don’t agree with that. She also might feel like she is doing all the prep work for this visit without help and this argument is just adding more frustration.. Or other reasons.

I mean, I don’t know your relationship with her and how/if she is manipulating you in this scenario, so that would change your response if that is the case. But maybe if you preface stuff with a guess about the good reasons your mom might want to do this – “Mom, I know you just want both of us to have what we need, you want to provide for us to show us you love us. But getting ready for her visit is a lot of work, and this is something that my sister could do on her way in since she’s the one who will be drinking a lot of the milk and you could focus on other things. She wouldn’t mind doing it.” – I mean, you’d have to tailor that, but basically acknowledge positive reasons why your mom might be doing this, then your suggestion would reinforce her understanding that you know she loves you both and that you’re trying to help her not burn out, versus arguing.

I naturally need to know why she's feeling sad and what I can do to fix the situation, so I want to poke her. But I also know if I poke her she'll get even more mad.

Yeah, it can all simply be how you set up the comment honestly. So that it is not a poke -- you arguing with her plan of action -- but instead of you working with her... you care about her, she's overworked / trying too hard, and you can acknowledge that up front and then in effect be saying, "It's okay, she'll understand you love her even if you need her to bring some milk to the house herself. After all, she is also the one using most of it."

My dad tries to be the mediator of these conflicts and explain the why, but I still need the why to match either a universal or internal sense of logic. It never does, and I just end up frustrated. My parents call me negative, a perfectionist, and too critical. I can't stop it, though. I just want things to make sense.

I think you understand the milk situation and who should be responsible for what... but the comment above doesn't address the emotional reality / priorities driving your mom in this situation. If you address those, she might be more open to your alternate solutions.

Your mom doesn't sound very INTJ in her response, she sounds like more of an SFJ type. I wouldn't know, but definitely more F and it's typical Si-Fe focus.

 

[skimpit]

...Very rare to see INTJ that identifies as Empath, given they're thinking sorts. Not that I'm questioning their typing. Merely remarking on rarity. I assume you know them better.

Either way, I suppose... Not getting along doesn't have to be a type thing.

I don't know what my sister is, honestly. She's consistently gotten Ni in her results, though.

Do I need a "not type related" badge on my post? Feel free to slam it on there, I don't mind

 

[Fidelia]

If it were me as your mom, I'd feel like 1) as a mother and a host, it's something I want to provide 2) you're neither paying for it or being that inconvenienced, so why is a bit of milk for your sister such a big deal 3) a couple of why's is fine. Several seems like just enjoying an argument for the sake of it, which feels self indulgent and pointless to engage in 4) I hate being inconvenienced by being out of stuff that I use, so even if your sister could pick milk up, by doing it myself I have some control over circumstances for myself.

I have no idea if your mom would feel remotely any of those things. However, I guess I wonder, is there an underlying reason other than understanding the WHY that's driving you that hard?

 

[Tilt]

It sounds like being interrogated over a simple thing that your mom wants to do. As a Ni user, I would do the same thing as your mom because it would make me feel prepared and comfortable for my guest. That type of questioning would just feel like judgement and criticism for how I would want to go about things... like there is something inherently wrong with how I operate.

 

[Fidelia]

I've been mostly an only child too, with siblings sic and eleven years older. I'm not sure that that totally explains it.

Do you feel like there's care or consideration available for your sister that you don't feel is available for you? In other social situations, would you usually ask someone five or six why's in a row? If so, how do people generally respond to that? If not, what makes inter family exchanges different in that way?

I'm not suggesting that I know those answers, but am just bringing up possibilities to pose to yourself, because I think it's got more to do with your perspective than with your mom's response.

If your mom is feeling sad, it may be more efficient to ask her directly about it instead of poking her in a more roundabout way, which could be misinterpreted.

 

[Fidelia]

I think explaining why it helps you to understand is helpful in making people less dismissive or defensive. However, either at work or at home, sometimes you need to get those answers with some less overt detective work rather than beating a dead horse or consistently prioritizing your own need to know over their needs.

 

[Yuurei]

There is being an 'introverted sensor' and just being contrary. It sounds like you're the later. Don't argue with everything, it's exhausting. Just go with it, it wont hurt you.

 

[Tilt]

How do I not do it? At some point I might've thought it was cute, but it literally won't leave my mind that I should be doing this.

It's like, "If I don't ask why at certain points (whatever I feel is necessary), am I a sheep? What is a sheep, anyway? Do they exist? Maybe I should just let it go..." But I can't stop.

I realize it drives people nuts. It drives me nuts.

I think I'll just retreat to my little corner where I can be contrary in my own mind, and not let anybody hear it.

Ok if you must really know how someone is thinking, think of a few potential possibilities and ask about the most innocuous one. If you end up being incorrect, the other person will often clarify without getting defensive. However, if they seem to get agitated, leave them alone...respect other people's boundaries.

It honestly sounds like you have an anxiety issue and you are trying to seek certainty to quell it by figuring out why why why. I wouldn't be surprised if you are a little threatened that your mom was going out of her way to help your sister because maybe your mom isn't consistent or really emotionally there for you. Or the possibility of sharing your mother's affections is difficult because she's distant. There's got to be reason why you so invested in dissecting human interactions to that degree.

What is the ultimate question that you are trying to get to the bottom of?

 

[Fidelia]

It sounds like what you've been doing has not been effective in getting more answers, being assured of people's underlying meaning, or in becoming better at reading between the lines.

Perhaps it is time to look at alternative ways to approach those situations that would yield better results for you, and not irritate those around you. What you're describing goes quite a ways beyond the bounds of being simply inquisitive, especially for someone who is not a small child.

 

[Tilt]

I always thought it was because I wanted to be more logical and have certainty, because I didn't have any. In my family it's pretty common for my parents and me to call each other stupid and about 78% of the time mean it. Of course, they say it with a general malice, but a smiling or joking tone at times, so I get confused. I need people to say what they mean. I like to figure out deeper meaning, but I'm no good at it. At some point when I was younger, I realized I wasn't good at thinking in grey (instead of black and white), and couldn't read between the lines, didn't have tact... etc. There was a lot from my internal processes that most "normal" people seemed to have that was missing, and I tried to add it back in like a retcon by following that haunting "why" in the back of my mind to an obsessive degree. Usually I got nowhere, and I was no better at reading people's emotions. It was just a fun experiment, and it frustrated me that it was just "fun" and didn't produce any results: no empathy, no better facial reads, no connection with other human beings. I can laugh at other people's jokes, for instance, but unless it has a pre-defined meaning I'm familiar with or expect, I'm lost and I look like a dumb blonde. Some people (close to me) will be crying and I won't know why they're crying unless I think hard, and I can't comfort them. If I had to describe my experience, I'd say it's extremely disconcerting because I want so much for myself and I can see I'm lacking in so many areas, but I can never reach the goals I set. People are always telling me to stop asking why, to stop thinking about my own motivations and beliefs. And that's what I thought you were supposed to do. Be self-aware. But, of course, I could be wrong. And that would make me mad too since I would've liked to come to that conclusion on my own.

*sigh*

There's a balance. Too much rumination has actually been shown to increase anxiety and depression and distort one's perceptions. The thing about people and certainty is that there is none... people are kind of nuts.

Your family dynamic sounds rather toxic. No wonder why you cope that way...in a way, it gives you a sense of more stability and control if you feel like you understand things. However, when it comes to people, it rarely is completely black and white and even the most seemingly consistent people will end up shocking you at times.

I think once you move out and do your own thing, the obsession to understand why will subside or be redirected into more productive things like work, higher education/trade school, hobbies.

Why not redirect that energy into your self-defined goals? Because YOU are the ONE AND ONLY person that you have control over.

 

[SearchingforPeace]

The quest for certainty to a false quest, usually. Learning to be comfortable with uncertainty is a good thing. It usually takes time to develop.

Children, especially young children, often ask questions of their parents regarding certainty related issues. Often, their parents do not have a definite answer because they really don't have a definite answer. "When are we getting there?" asked about a place the parent has not been before, and the parents knows there may be stops of indeterminate length like food, fuel, and restroom breaks, plus traffic and road construction and accidents and car troubles, etc.

Brene Brown talks about the need to let go of certainty, among other things. I highly recommend reading her books, starting with Gifts of Imperfection.

The search for certainty and control is a quest based upon fear. Moving beyond fear helps us grow, though it is difficult in the face of ongoing challenges.

 

[Fidelia]

Yes, I think we all in different ways seek out security and certainty to help us feel better. But really, the best things happen to us when we are able to accept that we can't always know or be certain of anything, so we have to be present and learn to develop skills not to control or prevent or understand every situation, but to figure out how to respond well and grow from it. As we loosen our grip on those needs, we can accept other people better because they don't threaten our security, we are more open to new feedback or information, we can accept constructive criticism as information to work with and sort, and we become better able to improvise and adapt to new situations. I think happiness then also depends less on our surroundings or circumstances or how people act, and more on what our response is, which gives us a sense of healthy agency.

 

[Tilt]

In general, I have noticed that that type of intense questioning, even in adults, often stems from emotional volatility from childhood/homelife. However, as a person distances from the source of stress and engages in fulfilling activities, it tends to become less of a hindrance. On the plus side, it can help hone one's analytical skills. I don't think the questioning is the issue here, in itself. The OP just needs to add other things to her arsenal of coping skills in addition to her inquisitiveness: naps, jogging, meditation, etc.

Good luck, OP!

 

[Agent Washington]

I always thought it was because I wanted to be more logical and have certainty, because I didn't have any. In my family it's pretty common for my parents and me to call each other stupid and about 78% of the time mean it. Of course, they say it with a general malice, but a smiling or joking tone at times, so I get confused. I need people to say what they mean. I like to figure out deeper meaning, but I'm no good at it. At some point when I was younger, I realized I wasn't good at thinking in grey (instead of black and white), and couldn't read between the lines, didn't have tact... etc. There was a lot from my internal processes that most "normal" people seemed to have that was missing, and I tried to add it back in like a retcon by following that haunting "why" in the back of my mind to an obsessive degree. Usually I got nowhere, and I was no better at reading people's emotions. It was just a fun experiment, and it frustrated me that it was just "fun" and didn't produce any results: no empathy, no better facial reads, no connection with other human beings. I can laugh at other people's jokes, for instance, but unless it has a pre-defined meaning I'm familiar with or expect, I'm lost and I look like a dumb blonde. Some people (close to me) will be crying and I won't know why they're crying unless I think hard, and I can't comfort them. If I had to describe my experience, I'd say it's extremely disconcerting because I want so much for myself and I can see I'm lacking in so many areas, but I can never reach the goals I set. People are always telling me to stop asking why, to stop thinking about my own motivations and beliefs. And that's what I thought you were supposed to do. Be self-aware. But, of course, I could be wrong. And that would make me mad too since I would've liked to come to that conclusion on my own.

*sigh*

Not to be an armchair psychiatrist, but... This reads familiar to some degree. Have you heard of Asperger's Syndrome? Not having tact, taking things literally, having trouble reading between the lines, needing certainty, etc... All of these are part and parcel of having Asperger's. People with AS are literally wired a different way than many people.

What you are describing is difficulty with theory of mind. The good news is that you can generally compensate for it in other ways. (imo typology is one of the things that could help.)

 

[skimpit]

Not to be an armchair psychiatrist, but... This reads familiar to some degree. Have you heard of Asperger's Syndrome? Not having tact, taking things literally, having trouble reading between the lines, needing certainty, etc... All of these are part and parcel of having Asperger's. People with AS are literally wired a different way than many people.

Yes, when I wrote that it did sound like that to me.

I've considered that diagnosis for myself in the past. I've suggested it to my parents and each time I mention it, they vehemently shut it down with, "No. You are perfectly fine." Although, one time my mom "accused" me of being autistic, and I asked her, "If I was autistic, how come you didn't notice if you work with people 'like me'?" And that shut her up right quick.

I don't want to continue describing myself 'cause it rubs me the wrong way, but I spend a large part of my existence fighting to think differently and to connect with people. I tend to think really innocently and simply, and I am like an idiot, basically. People always say, "Don't treat yourself like that! Focus on your strengths." But I'm so simple it's really hard to find something that would be good for society.

I appreciate your insight, though.

 

[Agent Washington]

Yes, when I wrote that it did sound like that to me.

I've considered that diagnosis for myself in the past. I've suggested it to my parents and each time I mention it, they vehemently shut it down with, "No. You are perfectly fine." Although, one time my mom "accused" me of being autistic, and I asked her, "If I was autistic, how come you didn't notice if you work with people 'like me'?" And that shut her up right quick.

I don't want to continue describing myself 'cause it rubs me the wrong way, but I spend a large part of my existence fighting to think differently and to connect with people. I tend to think really innocently and simply, and I am like an idiot, basically. People always say, "Don't treat yourself like that! Focus on your strengths." But I'm so simple it's really hard to find something that would be good for society.

I appreciate your insight, though.

Well, it sounds like your mother is defensive about autism, i.e. thinking there's something "wrong" with people who are neurodivergent. And there's always the possibility of parents making mistakes -- in my parents' day there was no such thing as asperger's, you grew up just like everyone else and fit in or else. So that world view got passed on to me. I only discovered the diagnosis much later and got it confirmed. I suggest not shutting down the possibility based on arbitrary circumstances and look at proof-based literature, especially works by people who have the syndrome (Temple Grandin's a good start) or people who actually do work with them on their own terms. It is difficult to get a glimpse of your family dynamics because it seems quite complicated... You can also message me if you want.

Anyway, it does sound like you have problems with theory of mind - it can be quite difficult to be vulnerable like this when you don't view yourself in high esteem. Just keep in mind that there's ways to compensate for such problems - presumably you'll grow older and gain more experience with social issues. Neurotribes is a good book that explains why neurodiversity is important. Even if you don't have autism, it does matter how people view people who are different -- because it doesn't have to be derogatory. Have a read. NeuroTribes - Wikipedia

 

[Yuurei]

I always thought it was because I wanted to be more logical and have certainty, because I didn't have any. In my family it's pretty common for my parents and me to call each other stupid and about 78% of the time mean it. Of course, they say it with a general malice, but a smiling or joking tone at times, so I get confused. I need people to say what they mean. I like to figure out deeper meaning, but I'm no good at it. At some point when I was younger, I realized I wasn't good at thinking in grey (instead of black and white), and couldn't read between the lines, didn't have tact... etc. There was a lot from my internal processes that most "normal" people seemed to have that was missing, and I tried to add it back in like a retcon by following that haunting "why" in the back of my mind to an obsessive degree. Usually I got nowhere, and I was no better at reading people's emotions. It was just a fun experiment, and it frustrated me that it was just "fun" and didn't produce any results: no empathy, no better facial reads, no connection with other human beings. I can laugh at other people's jokes, for instance, but unless it has a pre-defined meaning I'm familiar with or expect, I'm lost and I look like a dumb blonde. Some people (close to me) will be crying and I won't know why they're crying unless I think hard, and I can't comfort them. If I had to describe my experience, I'd say it's extremely disconcerting because I want so much for myself and I can see I'm lacking in so many areas, but I can never reach the goals I set. People are always telling me to stop asking why, to stop thinking about my own motivations and beliefs. And that's what I thought you were supposed to do. Be self-aware. But, of course, I could be wrong. And that would make me mad too since I would've liked to come to that conclusion on my own.

*sigh*

It’s important to remember that critical thinking is a very important skill.

But simply doing the opposite of everything your told isn’t critical thinking, it isn’t rebellious. It’s just blindly following the other side.
Taking this to the extreme is how you get anti-vaxxars and flat-Earthers; there is no logic involved, and any real questioning leads to “ this is wrong”. Yet people -surprisingly, a great many, follow such movements purely out of distrust fir the majority rule. Often times their ‘ arguments’ consist of things like “ Oh I see, you just do hat your guvment tells you to!” A healthy skeptiscm is fine, it can be good even but sometimes the majority is in fact based off of knowledge and experience and the better of all.

I think knowing what and when o question is something you just sort of have to figure out on your own, with time ( or maybe I’m just a horrid teacher) but I think a good place to start is in understanding the consequences of what you choose to question.

When it comes to daily mundane things, like, say, going to the store with your Mother it just comes off as obstinate to question “ Why?” Why? Because she asked you to and it’s good to out of the house. Just go along with it and you’ve made your Mother feel respected and appreciated as a human being. There is no morally grey area to going, you are very unlikely to cause harm to others in doing so, your Mother probably does not have some grand and evil agenda.

Now, if in front of that store is someone holding a clipboard and asks you to donate to...God knows what but they do tell you “ It’s for the children!” questioning them is a good idea. These sorts of people are often vague and “ saving the children” could mean anything from more taxes going to fund schools to rolling back child labor laws.
People in my area fell for this, they voted to “ Save the children!” and what they got, rather, lost, was the YMCA community and senior centers to make room for private schools.
Tangent aside, consequences; far-reaching and grand in scale verses a slight inconvenience, I think is really where you really need to focus your attention when questioning...whether or not to question.

Does that help at all?

 

[Fidelia]

I think in most cases, try to be considerate of the person in question, but assume that it's not necessarily about you. In fact, more often than not, it's something else. You can say something like, "You don't seem quite like yourself. If there's anything I can do for you, please let me know". That way you've allowed her to still make a choice about whether you are involved, but expressed enough concern that she realizes maybe there's something bothering her and that you care.