Explanation for SJs dislike of change [Si vs Ne/Ni/Se]

[Snow Turtle]

I'd love to hear some opinions from others regarding this idea. Forgive me if this has already been discussed many times or seemed very obvious.

Si understanding of the world is gained through storage of data. We know that SJs are more concerned with practicalities and capturing reality. Whenever change occurs. We end up having to update our system by finding out new information and how it fits with reality. This is obviously exhuasting.

Ni - this function is more free to float around with different models. It's not as attached as the Si to capture reality physically. NJs would not need to reset their main model as often and thus do not mind change as much.*

This would mean that Se is the least against change, followed by Ne.

* This part feels rather shoddy in reasoning. There's the high possability that NJs do mind as much as SJs. Someone please correct me in this area.

Now for the criticism. Please?

 

[Jack Flak]

It follows. Nice to hear something related to functions which actually seems to have bearing.

I propose arguing against your own hypothesis with contradictory alternates, to see if it holds up in your mind.

 

[redacted]

Neither introverted perceiving process likes change. The reason Ni seems less resistant to change is that it isn't focused on concrete stuff.

So Ni dislikes abstract change -- change in their concept structure -- change in their model of understanding the world. Si dislikes change in the kind of sensory data they take in.

 

[edcoaching]

Barger and Kirby did a huge study on what people want during change. SJs ask very reasonable questions like

• How much is this going to cost?
• If we do this, what aren't we going to do anymore? As in what wil you take off our plates?
• Has this worked somewhere else? Why do you think it will work here?
• Where is the time coming from to make this happen?

These needs are almost never met and voila--resistance. If you meet their informational needs they aren't any more resistant than other types, but often in times of change the SJs are pains rather than sources of wisdom...

Everyone will resist if their needs during change aren't met.

 

[Usehername]

Barger and Kirby did a huge study on what people want during change. SJs ask very reasonable questions like

• How much is this going to cost?
• If we do this, what aren't we going to do anymore? As in what wil you take off our plates?
• Has this worked somewhere else? Why do you think it will work here?
• Where is the time coming from to make this happen?

These needs are almost never met and voila--resistance. If you meet their informational needs they aren't any more resistant than other types, but often in times of change the SJs are pains rather than sources of wisdom...

Everyone will resist if their needs during change aren't met.

So basically all the difference is with Si users is that they're focused on tangible/practical frustrations, and because we can't escape the fact that we have bodies and live on a physical world called Earth (where Si dominion reigns), we see their frustration played out more?

 

[edcoaching]

So basically all the difference is with Si users is that they're focused on tangible/practical frustrations, and because we can't escape the fact that we have bodies and live on a physical world called Earth (where Si dominion reigns), we see their frustration played out more?

Yeah, and basically the rest of teh world is telling them, "Trust me, it'll work" and they know from experience that it won't.

Ran into a fantastic example this week. A school district just adopted a new "research-based" math curriculum, convinced it'll work wonders. Teachers only had a few days of training on it and no more funds are available for additional days. The curriculum depends entirely on depth of teacher knowledge in content--you can't teach it if you don't know how students develop understanding of fractional concepts, for example. The teachers lacked this knowledge with the prior curriculum and the new curriculum training only explained the how's--using the online tutorials, how to read the teachign guide, new manipulatives, extra problem sources, etc...the SJ teachers KNOW they don't know enough to use it. The last time this happened, several of teh SJs continued to teach with the old curriculum, hiding their books from administrators, and got just as good results because at least they knew what that curriculum could/couldn't do.

If anyone had listened to those SJs (and they wrote articulate letters to administrators about their needs/questions/concerns) the professional development could have targeted the real needs of the teachers...

 

[Jae Rae]

Math curricula are notorious for this. The pilot studies always have lots of money, but there's far less for implementation. So after a few years (sometimes only 1 year) they go back to the first way. Then in a year or two a new way is touted as THE way.

 

[The_Liquid_Laser]

I'm supposed to be the type that likes to do everything differently, but overall I think the more traditional method of teaching math is one of the best (better than most others I've encountered). The main problem I see with the old way is that there needs to be more technology incorporated into math education compared to the most traditional way of teaching math. However you can introduce too much technology too soon and hamper the students ability to grasp the fundamental ideas. Even technology is a balancing act, so overall I think the old way is preferable to most of the new ways.

 

[edcoaching]

I'm supposed to be the type that likes to do everything differently, but overall I think the more traditional method of teaching math is one of the best (better than most others I've encountered). The main problem I see with the old way is that there needs to be more technology incorporated into math education compared to the most traditional way of teaching math. However you can introduce too much technology too soon and hamper the students ability to grasp the fundamental ideas. Even technology is a balancing act, so overall I think the old way is preferable to most of the new ways.

Actually what students need to learn math varies phenomenally by the quadrants of the type table (IS, IN, ES, EN) with a kicker thrown in for the T-F dichotomy that without the proper environment, F's will more likely develop math anxiety. We're doing a double-blind research study right now filming students doing math tasks and the differences are striking enough to even get math teachers to change their practices

 

[EJCC]

Actually what students need to learn math varies phenomenally by the quadrants of the type table (IS, IN, ES, EN) with a kicker thrown in for the T-F dichotomy that without the proper environment, F's will more likely develop math anxiety. We're doing a double-blind research study right now filming students doing math tasks and the differences are striking enough to even get math teachers to change their practices

Firstly, your avatar is awesome.

Secondly, I think you're right. In high school, one of my friends, an INFJ, had serious issues in math class because of the environment, whereas all I ever needed in a math class were 1. a textbook, 2. assignments, and 3. someone to answer my questions. I never really needed a "teacher" as such - just an advisor.

Thirdly, I kind of agree with your point about meeting needs (What's the point in changing a method of doing things when both the current method AND the potential method are flawed?), but I always thought of it as a kind of security blanket, or a fear of new things. I think SJs are really cautious people, and their fear of change has something to do with that instinct.

 

[edcoaching]

Thirdly, I kind of agree with your point about meeting needs (What's the point in changing a method of doing things when both the current method AND the potential method are flawed?), but I always thought of it as a kind of security blanket, or a fear of new things. I think SJs are really cautious people, and their fear of change has something to do with that instinct.

Part of my practice is coaching teachers and I can get the SJs to change if i meet their needs (actually this is true for any of the types). Part of the problem is that ENs love to try anything new and are really vocal about it, which makes anyone who is hesitant, even if for very good reasons, look afraid...

The STJs often look to me for exactly what I would do to make the change. The SFJs want me there while they try it. The STPs want me to hand over something that'll work tomorrow. If it works, they're fastest on board. The SFPs want to coteach with me for more than one try if i have time...

 

[The_Liquid_Laser]

Actually what students need to learn math varies phenomenally by the quadrants of the type table (IS, IN, ES, EN) with a kicker thrown in for the T-F dichotomy that without the proper environment, F's will more likely develop math anxiety. We're doing a double-blind research study right now filming students doing math tasks and the differences are striking enough to even get math teachers to change their practices

This probably depends somewhat on what material is being taught. I used to (re)teach college students algebra I & II, and I was surprised how many did not know their multiplication tables. As a result the kids had no idea if their answers looked reasonable. I think this is my biggest pet peeve with elementary math education. Kids would have a much easier time in later math classes if they all had their addition, multiplication, etc... tables memorized.

 

[edcoaching]

This probably depends somewhat on what material is being taught. I used to (re)teach college students algebra I & II, and I was surprised how many did not know their multiplication tables. As a result the kids had no idea if their answers looked reasonable. I think this is my biggest pet peeve with elementary math education. Kids would have a much easier time in later math classes if they all had their addition, multiplication, etc... tables memorized.

The tasks we're filming are rich tasks designed to reveal student thinking and which can be done in multiple ways. Think about this: not one Sensing student has tried using numbers/equations to solve the tasks. Almost all the Intuitives did. They all had approximately the same standardized test scores and instruction...

And elementary math...remember the majority of the teachers are Sensing and Feeling, most likely to have math anxiety although many love math. When the math-anxious teachers work with teh constructivist curricula, they are nervous because, well, the students are so unpredictable. The skill drill is embedded in the games and extra activities and a lot of this is skipped because they want to be through with math. So it's there in every curriculum. The problem is teacher training, to which the US for the most part devotes neither time nor money. Those who teach elementary math in China, for example, get 3 hours a day to prep, review student work, and confer with colleagues if a student isn't understanding. IN the US teachers have an hour at most to contact parents, correct papers, plan lessons, etc...

 

[pure_mercury]

I am excellent at arithmetic, but I have a problem with more abstract mathematics. Also, I get frustrated when I see too many numbers and letters smooshed together on a page. I found myself having to re-read things all the time in my Calculus and Statistics classes in college.

 

[Jack Flak]

Also, I get frustrated when I see too many numbers and letters smooshed together on a page. I found myself having to re-read things all the time in my Calculus and Statistics classes in college.

Couldn't have said it better myself. I do abstract, but I hate looking at equations, man, hate it. My mind is perfectly suited to geometry, not algebra.

 

[edcoaching]

I am excellent at arithmetic, but I have a problem with more abstract mathematics. Also, I get frustrated when I see too many numbers and letters smooshed together on a page. I found myself having to re-read things all the time in my Calculus and Statistics classes in college.

...I'm filming 6th graders who are 1-2 years behind in math.

If there's too many #s on a page then more Sensing is required. I loved it all through calculus, then I knew I'd never use the stuff and opted for more literature classes

 

[The_Liquid_Laser]

The tasks we're filming are rich tasks designed to reveal student thinking and which can be done in multiple ways. Think about this: not one Sensing student has tried using numbers/equations to solve the tasks. Almost all the Intuitives did. They all had approximately the same standardized test scores and instruction...

I could see type mattering a lot more once you get to algebra. It could also stand to be overhauled more than arithmetic IMO. The way algebra is designed is basically to be a bridge into higher level math courses. Ironically most students who take algebra will probably never get beyond algebra II. If they take college algebra when they get to college it's basically more of the same. The only reason I could give for teaching it, is that it prepares people for statistics. (But you really don't need algebra II to prepare for stats.)

 

[edcoaching]

I could see type mattering a lot more once you get to algebra. It could also stand to be overhauled more than arithmetic IMO. The way algebra is designed is basically to be a bridge into higher level math courses. Ironically most students who take algebra will probably never get beyond algebra II. If they take college algebra when they get to college it's basically more of the same. The only reason I could give for teaching it, is that it prepares people for statistics. (But you really don't need algebra II to prepare for stats.)

It actually matters phenomenally in arithmetic. The films get teachers/professors/curriculum coordinators to fall off their chairs as they see the very different ways the students make sense of the problems. And we've seen how students respond when tutored using the methods that appeal to their natural preferences. The light in their eyes as they finally have hope that they can learn is unbelievable. When you're three years behind in math and only 11 years old, finally grasping a concept after years of feeling stupid is pretty powerful.