[MBTI General] ESTP & INFJ shadowdance

[Reverie]

What are your experiences with ESTPs?
I have worked closely in a group with a person I believe to be an ESTP. All in all I found the co-operation quite disturbing. I had a very strong instant gut reaction that I should keep away from this person and this person has never been comfortable with me either, so feeling must be mutual, though more deeply felt from my part I suspect.
On occasion we get along ok, sometimes even famously, as we are both jokers and get up to all sort of mischief. I usually provide the bad idea and this person eggs everyone on to implemet it... I've had loads of fun with this person.
Other than that though I genuinely do not trust her and I do think she's superficial and not particularly innovative, and she, I think, thinks my heads too big for my shoulders, I'm a stick in the mud, I think too highly of myself and I believe she really just can't understand what people see in me and my work in general. She has actually said this accidentally in a heated moment.
But live and let live... until I found out my team wanted to replace me with a friend of hers. I was shocked as I had worked with these people for some years and had opened up to them...in an INFJ way atleast. I had a meltdown and left and got severely depressed. While I was in this state this person was the only one who kept regular contact with me. I was in my lowest lows and thought "Maybe I have misjudged this person. When I was scared to leave my house this person even THREW ME A PARTY and gathered all my friends, took care of everything etc.. !!!! My inner voice still kept warning me. Now I just came to realize as I got better that in the group I used to work in it was actually this person who had promoted and maneuvered my replacement. The introverts in the group had not even been consulted, the other extrovert and one of the three force factors in the group (me being one, but only because of the value of my creative input) is a "talk it to ya straight" kind of a person and said it only seemed like a good idea because she was convinced by this persons persuasion that if I was to go the group morale would improve...and she said it was a mistake and apologized. ...so I just feel utterly used for being so grateful for the person who plotted my downfall in the first place. Plotted as in vilified my character to everyone to the point where though nothing was said at first the atmosphere of hostility was so intense that I actually had to excuse myself on a few occasions because I was about to have a panic attack at work.
Are there irreconsilable differences between our personality types, or was it just a one off? What are your experiences with ESTPs?

 

[Phantonym]

I wouldn't put the blame on the type, but the person in question.

 

[The Outsider]

I don't know what this thread is about, but Shadowdancer is a pretty cool prestige class in 3.5 edition of DnD.

 

[Reverie]

I suppose I rambled a fair bit. I'm a little tired and stressed.
Just wanted to know what kind of experiences other INFJs have had with ESTPs. How the two types usually relate to each other as types. Wether there are some general difficulties people have experienced or some especially positive aspects to the interaction.
I know no type is "bad", and that this said individual is not representative of the type. I just wanted to assess wether some of the friction was caused by possible type to type misunderstanding.

 

[Jaguar]

One of my pals in the forum is an ESTP. He's happily married to an INFJ.
By the way, invite the ESTP to join the forum so I can get their side of the story.

 

[cascadeco]

One of my best INFJ friends was married to an ESTP for 5 years, but they divorced.

They loved one another, but were never able to communicate effectively/understand each other. The last two years my INFJ friend tried many various things, tried counseling, took both to counseling, tried to make it work, but the ESTP was not 'there' - was not receptive to it. It took the divorce itself and his learnings from that to get to that maturity point and realize what happened. He was blind to the dynamics prior to that end. I realize this is one-sided, but even two years after the divorce, she wanted further clarity and they got together a few weeks ago and she really wanted to know what she did wrong, where things slipped from his perspective, why it didn't work when he clearly and obviously loved her, why he didn't listen when she was saying things weren't going well, what happened. He mentioned a few things that made communication difficult, but said point-blank 90% was his fault. With them, it was a belated syncing up, and the syncing up didn't occur until he was slammed with the reality of it being over. It's like.. he didn't see any of it prior, or didn't want to see it, or didn't take her seriously when she said things needed to be fixed/addressed.. and he certainly didn't take the counseling seriously, which was her final straw where she threw up her hands and said it was over. I want to make it clear I don't think he's a bad guy, and she obviously played a role too, and obviously they both loved one another as they got married. He wasn't manipulative/bad/whatever in the slightest; he by all counts adored her - he was just completely and utterly clueless to the relationship crumbling under his feet, and never thought there was a problem until it was too late.

I think ESTP+INFJ *can*work, because there's an obvious attraction and chemistry and the two can complement, but I think it is much harder than many matchups due to the fact that in the end, the two have very different driving forces & motivations. So I think there is more to overcome / more stumbling blocks than in some other relationships. But in the end, all relationships require maturity, common ground/vision, and both parties being willing to put forth the effort, understanding, and work.

 

[SilkRoad]

It sounds to me like the OP had a bad experience with an "unhealthy" person, rather than it being particularly type-dependent. ESTPs often get characterized as "amoral" or "manipulative". I suspect that if they chose to be manipulative, they would probably be past-masters at it. However, if you spend time on this forum you'll find that there is someone or some people here who've had problems with manipulative people of every single type, certainly including INFJs.

The ESTP who Jag mentioned who's married to an INFJ, Halla (at least I'm pretty sure that's who he meant!) is a super-cool guy and obviously would do anything for his family and his INFJ. He's also been very open about the fact that he and his wife had many challenges for years, which were helped eventually by marriage counselling. A lot of those challenges sounded like they were related to type and communication - much in the way that Cascade mentioned above with the people she knows.

I'm not sure if I've known any ESTPs - very likely, but I wouldn't be able to identify them for sure. In theory, as far as romantic pairings go, they sound pretty sexy to me. But I imagine there could be a ton of communication and outlook issues to negotiate. It also seems to be well-documented on this site that INFJs and ESTJs have quite a strong attraction but also have a great many difficulties regarding communication, outlook and approach.

 

[Agent Jelly]

I was friends with a INFJ on and off for 2 years. She was a lesbian (idk if this had anything to do with it). But if I payed attention to anyone other than her she'd get extremely jealous and send me texts saying, "well I guess we shouldn't be friends anymore since you've replaced me". It always left me puzzled. I valued our friendship we talked about a vast majority of things and did a lot of random things together. One day she texted me and told me that I needed to delete her number and forget she ever existed and she'd do the same. Because we are too different and our friendship wasn't going to work. I really don't know what she was alluding at! But anyhow she borrowed the first two seasons of trueblood from me and never gave them back

I don't know if this experience helps you at all. I think it was an odd one. My husbands sister is a INFJ (i think a very unhealthy one) and we do not get along very well. She is very high maintence and overly critical and expects the whole world to do whatever she wants however she wants. And then will brood if things don't go her way (which they rarely do). I think if she weren't so depressed I'd enjoy being around her.

 

[Agent Jelly]

I was friends with a INFJ on and off for 2 years. She was a lesbian (idk if this had anything to do with it). But if I payed attention to anyone other than her she'd get extremely jealous and send me texts saying, "well I guess we shouldn't be friends anymore since you've replaced me". It always left me puzzled. I valued our friendship we talked about a vast majority of things and did a lot of random things together. One day she texted me and told me that I needed to delete her number and forget she ever existed and she'd do the same. Because we are too different and our friendship wasn't going to work. I really don't know what she was alluding at! But anyhow she borrowed the first two seasons of trueblood from me and never gave them back

I don't know if this experience helps you at all. I think it was an odd one. My husbands sister is a INFJ (i think a very unhealthy one) and we do not get along very well. She is very high maintence and overly critical and expects the whole world to do whatever she wants however she wants. And then will brood if things don't go her way (which they rarely do). I think if she weren't so depressed I'd enjoy being around her.

 

[Reverie]

I think in my friends perspective I would be high maintenance, as I tend to only communicate "heavy" subjects to people I'm friends with in one on one situations to and I feel she felt perhaps felt it to be a tad "suffocating". I admire her drive and effectiveness and being able to make atmospheres pleasant for people to be in. I just don't think she gets my Ne at all and that is pretty much the motor of my being and consequently misses the main point in me. If you take that out of my persona there's not much left really. Not that I can understand Se... I mean I occasionally walk into trees and lampposts when I go out and I'm definitely not in the present now as much as sowing seeds for tomorrow. I can see the INFJ-ESTP relations being tricky and I would say more so for the INFJ.
This person I'm speaking of has done things I would class as immoral to other people too though, so maybe it's her, not her type. That said I confess to having the typical INFJ weaknesses which generally irk people. Brooding on past transgressions being one of them...as witnessed. No one deserves to be treated like I was though. There would have been fairer ways to handle things.

Edit: As for what her beef with me is it would revolve around the same grievances that most people have with INFJs in general: Being too serious and grave about things, having an air of arrogance and perfectionism. Being too introverted and sullen at times and super serious about having to have a serious "meaning" behind what we were doing. Being impatient when things are tested out (I have a really good internal way of testing various options in my head and knowing what will work and what wont because I've already performed a "testdrive" in my head in a few seconds. It's hard for me to wait while others repeat the very same same operations in real life, which takes a heck of a long time...) <---Coming back to air of arrogance...but certainly I was not working with a choir of angels and I feel that I have a fair deal of understanding when it comes to other's faults, but also what are people's saving graces, talents and special abilities.
I just wonder from the P.O.V of an ESTP experience what would be the general irritants that they encounter with INFJs, so I get a better idea of how I might have rubbed her the wrong way. What are the main motivations in life and concerning friendships and all that jazz. Maybe it just really really wasn't such a big deal for her. If I would ever have done that to someone it would have required a massive amount of malicious intent.

 

[Reverie]

...actually that's it probably...maybe that's what the crux of my grievance is with this person. She most likely did not have huge malicious intent when she did what she did. This person is a master strategist and plays people too. That said It is most likely that it was not because she hates me with a vengeance: She thought I was replaceable and with someone she felt would have the same standard of work I did and would be easier for her to get along with and someone she would not have to negotiate so much. But as things are generally not as "epic" for her as things are in my world, she thought there was no reason why we couldn't still be friends socially and since I got mopy she'd throw me little shinding to cheer me up. Now if you're like me, if I were to pinpoint a person in my work team I had a hard time getting my way with (she'd be one) and systematically criticise her to the rest of the team with the precise intent to get my guy in top replace them from a project they'd invested years in once it was proving to be successfull, and knowing that this person was 100%invested in this project, a workaholic and done tons of integral work on it. Well I'll tell you what, I'd be able to do that only if I really really hated their guts with a vengeance. I now do actually believe she hasn't got the eye to see the impact her actions always have on other kind of people... the emotional intelligence perhaps.

 

[miss fortune]

I wouldn't suggest judging ALL ESTPs based on your interaction with one ESTP... my sis is an INFJ and other than the fact that she is incredibly stubborn about EVERYTHING, I get along with her perfectly fine. We grew up together and went to the same college and managed not to kill one another.

Of course you post this when I'm considering firing an IxFJ at work for refusing to put in adequate effort, but it's nothing personal- it's because she isn't doing her job (and I've already talked to her about it a few times!)

 

[ThatGirl]

They smell like cookies.

 

[Jaguar]

Oh, no. It's the alpha male cookie monster routine.

 

[ThatGirl]

Well it is true!

 

[Reverie]

I wouldn't suggest judging ALL ESTPs based on your interaction with one ESTP... my sis is an INFJ and other than the fact that she is incredibly stubborn about EVERYTHING, I get along with her perfectly fine. We grew up together and went to the same college and managed not to kill one another.

Of course you post this when I'm considering firing an IxFJ at work for refusing to put in adequate effort, but it's nothing personal- it's because she isn't doing her job (and I've already talked to her about it a few times!)

No definitely not judging based on one example. The last comment was specifically about my experience with one specific person and our differences. I guess I just have to delve into the ESTP profiles online to research some on the type, since I'm now intrigued.
In any case karma took care of the actual situation i was in because the whole project ended up falling apart right after I left. I was the glue that held it together, mediating between cliques playing diplomat. In this case it was also a little crazy to drive me away because it was a creative project and I was actually the person who created the content and gave it identity. She did PR. Others admin type functions and sales type functions...What is PR for if you have no quality content? The replacement she had for me was an interpreter of content, not creator of content. My friend weirdly enough did not grasp the difference...so it came around and bit her on her own you know what, and subsequently all our years of effort went down the drain, save for learned skills. ...but this is really just sharing my experience with this random person I know.

I guess I just have to hit the books unless someone wants to give me a lowdown on what makes ESTPs tick. Maybe I'll go poke around on the ESTP forum.

 

[gromit]

Halla is awesome and he is married to an INFJ.

 

[Reverie]

Halla is awesome and he is married to an INFJ.

That's what people tell me. I'm new here. I'm sure he's a wonderful person. He is surely well loved.

As I just said I was talking about a specific case and people have already informed me that the way this person conducted herself did not sound like behaviour characteristic of ESTPs... so in that sense my thread is now pointless.

I don't know who smells like cookies... me like cookies though...

 

[nomoreshallwepart]

My best friend is an ESTP, we are on different wavelengths at times but we have been friends for 10 years now.

 

[Idealatious]

I had the most crushing crush on an ESTP once. He was sooo smooth. *swoon* And our conversations just flowed, like rapid, but shallow rivers. I made him take a personality test and he wasn't interested; he only made jokes about ESP, since I hadn't been sure of the T yet. ...yeah. *cough*

But I concede mixed feeling towards ESTPs. I admire my dad, who straddles the border between ESTP and ENTP, for his wit and spontaneous competence in the world, his persuasive capabilities and seeming ease as he navigates a world that suddenly becomes dangerous and thrilling as he goes through it - but I loathe his poor decision-making, his inability to appreciate silence and see what I consider reality, his occasional fakeness and preoccupation with his unrealistic plans that never work out. But obviously, he could be N, and this is just my experience. I haven't gotten close to any other identified ESTPs.