[ESTJ] ESTJ traits

[Southern Kross]

My sister is almost certainly an ESTJ and I want to know more about the type. Being an INFP and the opposite type, we have tended to clash a bit in the past but we are getting to a place where we get along better. She's not someone that is all that interested in MBTI so it would be nice to discuss the type here. And I find most of the descriptions a little unimaginative, saying little more than " very organized" and "a natural leader" in a variety of different ways.

If you are an ESTJ or know one well, tell me about yourself/them. What are some ESTJ traits beyond the obvious stuff? What would we be surprised to know about ESTJs? I'm looking for more positive stuff but the odd insightful flaw is welcome.

To start off, here is a little about my sister. She:
- is a natural leader ( ) and whatever situation she is in somehow she ends up in positions of authority
- is lively and sociable people person and a bit of a party girl
- has high expectations for herself and holds others up to the same standards.
- is extremely loyal but unfortunately people often fail to reciprocate this.
- is hard-working, responsible and reliable even when she doesn't want to be. She often gets unfairly used by others for this reason.
- has strong values and sticks to them resolutely. This can cause problems when she won't allow exceptions to the rule.
- thinks she is not good enough in some way, that she is not what she should be. This feeling particularly seems to arise when around our ESFJ cousin.
- is very laid back and easy-going in general but if someone crosses her they experience the full force of her wrath.
- is very assertive and not afraid of verbal confrontation.
- has a great sense of humour and has a rather silly streak.
- is a mix of toughness and soft femininity.
- practically every guy that knows her is at least a little bit in love with her.
- not easily tempted to getting into relationships. When she does she is a really excellent, understanding and fun girlfriend.
- likes to makes sure the people she cares about are taken care of.

Anyone identify with these qualities?

 

[Southern Kross]

Come on people! Help me out here. Everyone must know an ESTJ. They make up around 10% of the population!

 

[JocktheMotie]

Sounds like my gf, who is an ESTJ. Don't really know what you want to know...the Ask an ESTJ thread is great, EJCC does a wonderful job answering questions.

I will say, that ESTJ women are probably confused for Fs because they play the social game very, very well. And ESTJs are typically typed as people's bosses even if they aren't, simply because people are idiots.

 

[INTPness]

- not easily tempted to getting into relationships. When she does she is a really excellent, understanding and fun girlfriend.

Anyone identify with these qualities?

Every ESTJ I have known, man or woman, has undoubtedly been the boss in the relationship = not always fun for the other person. I would even go as far as to say that in most of these cases, the other person was oppressed.

I looked up the word "oppressed" to make sure it was the word I really wanted to use. It was:

op·press   /əˈprɛs/ Show Spelled[uh-pres] Show IPA
–verb (used with object)
1. to burden with cruel or unjust impositions or restraints; subject to a burdensome or harsh exercise of authority or power: a people oppressed by totalitarianism.
2. to lie heavily upon (the mind, a person, etc.): Care and sorrow oppressed them.
3. to weigh down, as sleep or weariness does.
4. Archaic . to put down; subdue or suppress.
5. Archaic . to press upon or against; crush.

Surely, there are people in relationships with ESTJ's who find them fun. I've just seen (in my handful of examples) that as time goes on, the demands of the ESTJ often increase and the relationship becomes much less fun for the partner. Other than that one glaring difference, I agree totally with the many wonderful qualities that you listed about them.

 

[miss fortune]

my best friend is an ESTJ female

some quirky little traits of hers here

- she takes very good care of her clothes... to the point where she has shirts and such from high school that look brand new

- she loves movies, and therefore reads up on the new ones coming out, keeps her collection well organized and updated and anticipates the Academy Awards every year!

- she loves historical fiction books and cookbooks... and works on perfecting recipes and makes notes about how she did it so that she can make the most perfect versions of the food possible

- she's a stickler for matching wines and foods... meaning I got a phone call when she was on her honeymoon asking what cheese she should match with a specific wine they'd picked up in Napa Valley

- she loves to travel, and never forgets to pick people up souvineers while there

 

[ChocolateMoose123]

I don't understand the oppressive status of ESTJ's. I've never felt this way with any ESTJ I've known. I've felt more oppression from a couple ESFJ's IRL than anyone else. I'm not acting the right way for their satisfaction.

Anyway good list. I'd add:

-able to stand up for what they believe in even though it's not the popular opinion. They make valiant underdog fighters.

 

[INTPness]

I don't understand the oppressive status of ESTJ's.

Again, I'm not ESTJ-bashing here. I think the list in the OP listed some great traits - all of which are true of ESTJ's.

But, what I've observed is that the ESTJ oppression tends to really wear their partners down over time. I know an ESTJ male who tells his ESFJ wife (when she wanted to get a job) that she'll never be able to get a job after having been a housewife for so many years. Basically: "LOL. Think about it. You don't have any skills. Who in their right mind would hire you?"
Or, "all you have to do all day is clean, do laundry, and cook a decent meal, and you can't even do that right. This meal sucks." This kind of stuff - very frequently.

I know an ESTJ female who does similar things to the ESFJ male she is with. When he says, "I'm going to apply for that job!" She will say something like this in a very condescending tone: "Ha ha. Honey, you couldn't even get the last job you applied for and the qualifications for this one are much higher, so how in the world do you think you'll get this one? Come on now, be more realistic honey." And it's not like "honey" - I love you. It's more like "honey" - you're a stupid, freaking moron.

I know another ESTJ female who basically lays down the law with any boyfriend she has. She dictates what goes on and you get the feeling that the boyfriend(s) wants more of a voice. I've wanted every boyfriend she has had to "grow a pair" and stand up to her when she talks down to them.

Over the course of 10, 20, 30 years, hearing these types of things every day can wear you down. It can take the confidence right out of you, to the point to where you literally don't believe in yourself anymore. You start to think that you absolutely need the ESTJ because you can't do it on your own - because you have no skills, you don't do things right (ever), and you're basically a big lame-tard. I can't say it's characteristic of every ESTJ, I can just say I've seen it first hand in these examples and it aint pretty.

Friends of these ESTJ's don't always see it. It's the family members and those that are in the home on a regular basis that see it going on. Neighbors, for instance, think these ESTJ's are "great providers, good people". And they are! But, yeah, that's the "oppression" I'm talking about. Again, I can't say it's characteristic of all ESTJ's. But, I can say I've seen it first-hand with 3 of them (and signs of it with many others I've known).

 

[miss fortune]

I don't know what sort of ESTJs you know, but those aren't common traits in the ones I know

my ESTJ that I'm closest to never nags anyone or oppresses them... we used to be roommates with an ENTJ as well... the ESTJ one was the chill one who'd let me be my happy ESTP self as long as my piles of books didn't get onto her desk space, which was something I could comply with just fine! The ENTJ was the nut job of the living arrangement... she tended to yell at BOTH of us because she never saw us working but we got better grades than she did

Never felt the slightest oppressed by ESTJs... I'd never screw one over, but I feel comfortable in their presence and trust them to treat me well

 

[Aleksei]

I have two ESTJ cousins. They both have a great sense of humor and are a blast to be around, but they're both control freaks. One of my best friends is ExTJ (either a balanced ESTJ or an ENTJ, probably the former), and he's extremely chill. The only problem with this one is that I hardly ever see him, because he's always working.

 

[Fidelia]

- concerned about image
- very responsible
- know where things are and are good at keeping up with unpleasant tasks
- find it difficult to relax when things are left undone
- find it hard to pass responsibility to someone if they are not sure it will be done correctly
- excellent at taking care of their things
- lovers of food and enjoy trying new things. Pleased to introduced loved ones to new stuff.
- love travel
- enjoy investing
- usually have very extensive music collections and they have a wide knowledge base about the eclectic music they listen to.
- tend to seek solitude under stress
- can be the life of the party
- initiator rather than responder
- need to be prepared for every eventuality can make them rather pessimistic about their expectations for people's behaviours
- dislike having major decisions left up in the air and will choose hastily without enough thought to implications rather than leaving it hanging.
- avoid potentially emotional situations most of the time, if they are not sure how to proceed or if they believe things could get awkward.
- don't usually stay in contact after a relationship is over
- what is, is kind of mentality. Can't see the point of wasting energy in what could have been or should be if it's not straightforward to change.
- good with taking orders from someone over them
- expect compliance without too much questioning from those under them
- surprisingly easy going about a lot of things
- competent at a wide variety of skills, curious and lifelong learners, independent
- not always sensitive to what needs to be said at the moment so much as saying what they perceive as true. May wish to get on to the solution, where they have something to contribute, rather than listen to the preliminary stages of people talking about the problem
- sometimes a little impulsive or quick in decision making, but stick with whatever they've chosen and follow through
- like to choose practical, needful gifts of high quality
- prefer to have less stuff, but have it be very high quality
- take pride in seeing how much use they can get out of something, feel guilty just buying needless items on a whim
- unsentimental about the past
- good documenters. Foresee times when having a longterm record will be useful and necessary
- more interested in people and things within their immediate scope of control/involvement
- appear more confident than they may be. More open to changing opinions than they may seem on the outside (but usually won't tell you that you changed their mind!) Need more reassurance than they may seem to, but even those close to them often are not aware of that. Find it difficult to state emotional needs particularly (maybe are somewhat unaware of them until they all come out and then it is embarrassing?)
- much harder on themselves than you'd know
- like to take care of people they are close to in particular
- not much tolerance for people who dress or act outside of what is ordinary for the group/culture they are part of
- vocal about opinions and state them bluntly.
- younger ones particularly are partiers and they like to be the hub of a social circle. They are the organizer of social events or catalyst for them having them. They enjoy feeling that they are part of a group/culture/community of people.
- frugal themselves, but can be very generous with other people if the occasion warrants it.

 

[EJCC]

To start off, here is a little about my sister. She:
- is a natural leader ( ) and whatever situation she is in somehow she ends up in positions of authority
- is lively and sociable people person and a bit of a party girl
- has high expectations for herself and holds others up to the same standards.
- is extremely loyal but unfortunately people often fail to reciprocate this.
- is hard-working, responsible and reliable even when she doesn't want to be. She often gets unfairly used by others for this reason.
- has strong values and sticks to them resolutely. This can cause problems when she won't allow exceptions to the rule.
- thinks she is not good enough in some way, that she is not what she should be. (<-- Exactly. One of my philosophies in life is that, even though I'm not perfect, I need to try to be, out of principle.) This feeling particularly seems to arise when around our ESFJ cousin.
- is very laid back and easy-going in general but if someone crosses her they experience the full force of her wrath.
- is very assertive and not afraid of verbal confrontation.
- has a great sense of humour and has a rather silly streak.
- is a mix of toughness and soft femininity.
- practically every guy that knows her is at least a little bit in love with her. (<-- I have no way of knowing if this is true, but it would make me so happy if it were )
- not easily tempted to getting into relationships. When she does she is a really excellent, understanding and fun girlfriend.
- likes to makes sure the people she cares about are taken care of.

Anyone identify with these qualities?

I bolded the things that I identify with. And I REALLY identify with them - not just a little bit.

I also relate to practically all of fidelia's post... as per usual.

Some more additions to the list...

- Appear confident 24/7, to the point that even close friends don't realize that they have moments when they need reassurance
- Because of that confidence, may seem arrogant when they're often the exact opposite
- Seem so opinionated that many are afraid to debate them, even though they're much more easily convinced than you'd think
- Will almost NEVER admit defeat
- Contrary to popular belief, if they don't recognize a rule as being important, necessary or just, they probably won't follow it
- Very vocal about anything that they see as unjust, stupid or nonsensical*
- Have a strong innate talent for not thinking about things
- Easily embarrassed, especially by friends/family who draw a lot of attention
- Not very good at being teased sometimes (sometimes accused of "taking things too personally" or told that they "need to lighten up")
- Tendency to avoid strong painful emotions, and angriness at people who make them feel that way


*This happened to me in a cafeteria, when I heard about a "stupid" rule, got all hot and bothered, and practically interrogated the manager until I saw that the rule made sense.

Sounds like my gf, who is an ESTJ. Don't really know what you want to know...the Ask an ESTJ thread is great, EJCC does a wonderful job answering questions.

Thanks!

 

[sui generis]

It sounds to me like INTPness has had the misfortune of encountering immature/unbalanced ESTJs. The ESTJs that s/he describes sound a lot like me when I was younger. "Pushy" would have been a polite way to describe my younger self. Empathy and compromise were not things that came naturally to me, and as I've gotten older I've gotten better at them. I won't lie, I'm sure I'm intimidating to some people, but fairness is a very important value in my life. It took me a while to grow into my personality, but I think that the more I grow up and the more I deal with other people, the less pushy and more empathetic I become.

I was actually talking about people's ideas of ESTJs with one of my loved ones (an INTJ) last night. She said, "You're not intimidating... except when you know you're right." That's exactly the thing. The older I get, the more I'm inclined to realize that I don't, in fact, know everything.

Still, I think that ESTJ is an acquired taste for many people. We're not for everyone- I know I'm too intense for some people, and the older I get, the more I'm OK with that. The people who get close to me (us?) are the people who aren't scared off by the intensity, who aren't afraid to go toe-to-toe with me and wrestle around with ideas. I have hella respect for people who will stand up to me and be honest, even if their honesty is also somewhat hurtful.

Some people see me as friendly and an open book, some people see me as contentious and blunt. I don't think any of them are wrong. It depends on the situation.

Also, these apply to me:

- concerned about image
- very responsible
- know where things are and are good at keeping up with unpleasant tasks
- find it difficult to relax when things are left undone
- find it hard to pass responsibility to someone if they are not sure it will be done correctly
- excellent at taking care of their things
- lovers of food and enjoy trying new things. Pleased to introduced loved ones to new stuff.
- love travel
- usually have very extensive music collections and they have a wide knowledge base about the eclectic music they listen to.
- tend to seek solitude under stress
- can be the life of the party
- need to be prepared for every eventuality can make them rather pessimistic about their expectations for people's behaviours
- dislike having major decisions left up in the air and will choose hastily without enough thought to implications rather than leaving it hanging.
- avoid potentially emotional situations most of the time, if they are not sure how to proceed or if they believe things could get awkward.
- surprisingly easy going about a lot of things
- competent at a wide variety of skills, curious and lifelong learners, independent
- good documenters. Foresee times when having a longterm record will be useful and necessary
- more interested in people and things within their immediate scope of control/involvement
- appear more confident than they may be. More open to changing opinions than they may seem on the outside (but usually won't tell you that you changed their mind!) Need more reassurance than they may seem to, but even those close to them often are not aware of that. Find it difficult to state emotional needs particularly (maybe are somewhat unaware of them until they all come out and then it is embarrassing?)
- much harder on themselves than you'd know
- like to take care of people they are close to in particular
- vocal about opinions and state them bluntly.

- is lively and sociable people person and a bit of a party girl
- has high expectations for herself and holds others up to the same standards.
- is extremely loyal but unfortunately people often fail to reciprocate this.
- is hard-working, responsible and reliable even when she doesn't want to be. She often gets unfairly used by others for this reason.
- has strong values and sticks to them resolutely. This can cause problems when she won't allow exceptions to the rule.
- thinks she is not good enough in some way, that she is not what she should be. This feeling particularly seems to arise when around our ESFJ cousin.
- is very laid back and easy-going in general but if someone crosses her they experience the full force of her wrath.
- is very assertive and not afraid of verbal confrontation.
- has a great sense of humour and has a rather silly streak.
- is a mix of toughness and soft femininity.
- not easily tempted to getting into relationships. When she does she is a really excellent, understanding and fun girlfriend.

- [M]ay seem arrogant when they're often the exact opposite
- Seem so opinionated that many are afraid to debate them, even though they're much more easily convinced than you'd think
- Contrary to popular belief, if they don't recognize a rule as being important, necessary or just, they probably won't follow it
- Very vocal about anything that they see as unjust, stupid or nonsensical
- Not very good at being teased sometimes (sometimes accused of "taking things too personally" or told that they "need to lighten up")
- Tendency to avoid strong painful emotions, and angriness at people who make them feel that way

 

[Southern Kross]

I don't understand the oppressive status of ESTJ's. I've never felt this way with any ESTJ I've known. I've felt more oppression from a couple ESFJ's IRL than anyone else. I'm not acting the right way for their satisfaction.

Yeah I agree. Like someone else said, I think the domineering approach is more of the unhealthy version of the type. My sister has been very pushy in the past but isn't so much now. Stress and frustration can bring out this side but this happens with most people.

...

Still, I think that ESTJ is an acquired taste for many people. We're not for everyone- I know I'm too intense for some people, and the older I get, the more I'm OK with that. The people who get close to me (us?) are the people who aren't scared off by the intensity, who aren't afraid to go toe-to-toe with me and wrestle around with ideas. I have hella respect for people who will stand up to me and be honest, even if their honesty is also somewhat hurtful.

Wow. That is so true for my sister. As a child she was often teased because of her expressive intensity. I think it was the biggest problem socially until recent years (when she better learned to control it and/or to become a little more resigned). But as different as we are, I always understood and forgave her for her outbursts (certainly no one else did). I have a similar intensity and passionate beliefs but it was more hidden and internal. Even though we spent most of our childhood at war, I tried to shield others from seeing her like that to spare her the teasing. And it really hurt her when they did.

Other traits mentioned that are really spot on for my sister (bolded are especially so):

-able to stand up for what they believe in even though it's not the popular opinion. They make valiant underdog fighters.

- know where things are and are good at keeping up with unpleasant tasks
- lovers of food and enjoy trying new things. Pleased to introduced loved ones to new stuff.
- usually have very extensive music collections and they have a wide knowledge base about the eclectic music they listen to.
- tend to seek solitude under stress
- like to choose practical, needful gifts of high quality [gifts are her specialty!]
- appear more confident than they may be.
- much harder on themselves than you'd know
- vocal about opinions and state them bluntly.
- younger ones particularly are partiers and they like to be the hub of a social circle. They are the organizer of social events or catalyst for them having them. They enjoy feeling that they are part of a group/culture/community of people.

- Will almost NEVER admit defeat
- Contrary to popular belief, if they don't recognize a rule as being important, necessary or just, they probably won't follow it
- Very vocal about anything that they see as unjust, stupid or nonsensical
- Easily embarrassed, especially by friends/family who draw a lot of attention
- Not very good at being teased sometimes (sometimes accused of "taking things too personally" or told that they "need to lighten up")

I love what you said EJCC about not following illogical rules. Its so true! My sister begins a righteous crusade against the rule in such situations - it just galls her so much she has to do something about it! She only cares about following rules when they are functional and realistic.

And as for never admitting defeat: can you imagine a subborn INFP arguing with a stubborn ESTJ?!

 

[sui generis]

And as for never admitting defeat: can you imagine a subborn INFP arguing with a stubborn ESTJ?!

:steam: One of my best girl friends is an INFP and we're both stubborn as hell! It's frustrating, and surprisingly I am usually the one who backs down when we're having an argument. (Usually the arguments are about issues or ideas-- I don't think we've ever had a fight in ten years of friendship!) Preserving my friendship with her is more important than being right-- even if only slightly.

 

[INTPness]

It sounds to me like INTPness has had the misfortune of encountering immature/unbalanced ESTJs. The ESTJs that s/he describes sound a lot like me when I was younger. "Pushy" would have been a polite way to describe my younger self. Empathy and compromise were not things that came naturally to me, and as I've gotten older I've gotten better at them. I won't lie, I'm sure I'm intimidating to some people, but fairness is a very important value in my life. It took me a while to grow into my personality, but I think that the more I grow up and the more I deal with other people, the less pushy and more empathetic I become.

I was actually talking about people's ideas of ESTJs with one of my loved ones (an INTJ) last night. She said, "You're not intimidating... except when you know you're right." That's exactly the thing. The older I get, the more I'm inclined to realize that I don't, in fact, know everything.

Still, I think that ESTJ is an acquired taste for many people. We're not for everyone- I know I'm too intense for some people, and the older I get, the more I'm OK with that. The people who get close to me (us?) are the people who aren't scared off by the intensity, who aren't afraid to go toe-to-toe with me and wrestle around with ideas. I have hella respect for people who will stand up to me and be honest, even if their honesty is also somewhat hurtful.
Some people see me as friendly and an open book, some people see me as contentious and blunt. I don't think any of them are wrong. It depends on the situation.

Also, these apply to me:

Good post. And the bolded part is a great bit of information for me. When I was a child and a teen and a very young adult, I saw the ESTJ "pushiness"/bluntess (even mean-ness, as I saw it - and often times it was downright mean) - but I saw it as the ESTJ saying "you need to back down right now! We're going to do this MY WAY!" I was always kind of afraid (again, when I was younger) to fire back with Ti because I knew how harsh my inner thoughts could be. As a kid, when I let Ti off its leash, I would hurt the feelings of even adults sometimes. It really can put people in tears. And so, when ESTJ adults in my family would be "up in my grill" or telling me off, I didn't want to hurt them (because they were my family), so I would just shut up and take it. And if I had enough and stood up to them, I would say something really horrible and ending up feeling really bad that I said that to them.

But, as I've gotten older, I've seen what you're saying in action. When I've stood up to ESTJ's, it almost seems like they respect me more. Which was strange to me, because I always thought that by standing up to them, that it would be a no-win situation because they would just shout louder and it would get real ugly. So, it's good to hear an ESTJ actually say, "yes, stand up to me more and I will respect you. Don't let me walk all over you." Cuz Ti has lots to say. Ohhhhh, does it have things to say. But, it usually avoids conflict with Te-users because it knows that both parties will probably end up wounded (I don't mean physically) if it gets out of hand. So, it would rather keep the peace. But, good to know that you'd rather us stand up to you (if we believe in what we are saying, of course - not just for giggles).

 

[INTPness]

^Was thinking more about this and maybe that's where I owe ESTJ's in my life a big fat apology. I have never seen you guys as people who wanted me to speak my mind. I've always thought that you guys just want other people to "shut up and do what I say". I mean that's really been my experience with ESTJ's. And I think this thread has helped me realize that part of that is my problem and the way I have wrongly perceived them.

It sounds simple, but it's pretty eye opening for me because I've struggled so much with ESTJ's. And it's because of my perception of them - that they don't want you to go against them - they just want you to bow down and do what they say and nitpick every single, little thing you do wrong in their eyes. It can drive people crazy when you guys are in your "anal mode", but it's crazy how I went so long thinking you guys are just a bunch of anal jerks who want everything your way, when in fact you actually respect it when people stand up to you. Cuz that's exactly what I always thought the ESTJ's in my life needed most - was someone to stand up to them.

 

[sui generis]

I'm so glad that what I've said, or what we've said, has helped you understand the ESTJ mindset!

When I've stood up to ESTJ's, it almost seems like they respect me more. Which was strange to me, because I always thought that by standing up to them, that it would be a no-win situation because they would just shout louder and it would get real ugly.

Yes, I totally respect people more when they stand up to me! And beyond a certain age or maturity level, we don't have shouting matches anymore.

 

[Stanton Moore]

I get along with ESTJ's. They seem to have a strong code and value system, which I can relate to.

 

[sui generis]

I get along with ESTJ's. They seem to have a strong code and value system, which I can relate to.

Quite! I don't know if I can speak for ALL ESTJs, but I've got an overactive conscience. It's one of my favorite things about myself.

My INFP best friend and I often come to the same conclusions about issues (especially politically) but come around to them by using a completely different train of thought.

 

[Stanton Moore]

Quite! I don't know if I can speak for ALL ESTJs, but I've got an overactive conscience. It's one of my favorite things about myself.

My INFP best friend and I often come to the same conclusions about issues (especially politically) but come around to them by using a completely different train of thought.

Yep. I've had several ESTJ and ESTP friends, and guess what we bonded on? Similar interests, and similar values. Hmm...Sure, we had different perspectives, but that's a good thing in my mind.