[MBTI General] ENTJ needs help with ESFP!!!

[riddler79]

I will try to be concise. I am a really easy guy to get along with, but I tend to have problems with ESFP's that are in positions of authority over me. I tend to be straighforward, accurate, and clear when I speak, but I also share my opinion on situations. Tactfully. How do I get along with you? I take really believe that my bosses feel like either I threaten the their positions, or just that I dont respect them, since I am always suggesting things, or questioning what truly doesn't make sense. How do I tailor my responses so that I dont always get punished in a passive aggressive way, and punished for what I didn't even know doing was offensive? It's like I never get a real response from them(either ESFP boss), they always try to act cool to my face,and they try to destroy me behind my back. What should I do?

 

[Jeffster]

Buy them beer?

 

[INTPness]

IME, either:

(a) Just stop challenging/questioning things and just do what they say without much input, or (and this is a much better option),

(b) Start your own business and then hire them to work for you.

 

[Kingfisher]

straightforward and honest, stand your ground, don't back down - forcefulness and willpower - i always think that is the best way to deal with any boss.

i love it when people working under me come up with suggestions. i love when they come up with a project on their own, and i can set them loose on it with just some loose supervision. that is my heaven of management++
"destroying someone behind their back", that is so much WORK and such a time-investment... i couldn't do that. if i have an issue with an employee i always destroy them to their face. leave NO ROOM for misunderstanding. if there's been a problem it's got to be pulled out into the open and dealt with in plain words. i CAN'T STAND that quiet stewing, those disagreements/people that just hold SECRET GRUDGES and fester in the dark somewhere.

if your boss feels threatened by you that is just because they are insecure.
i don't think this is a type related problem.

Buy them beer?

definitely!

i have always had the problem of getting way too chummy and friendly with employees and bosses. oh well!

 

[stellar renegade]

I was quoting Kingfisher's post but EVERYTHING he said is perfect. Especially the part about suggestions and loose management and getting chummy with everyone. OMG. He knows what it's like to be an Artisan (SP) boss for sure. I know because I've been one, too.

Either these bosses are not actually SPs (very possible!) or maybe you need to change your approach. Or you just didn't give us enough info besides your speculations about their motives. Because what SP is going to not accept suggestions because their position is "threatened"?? Hoo boy! LAME-O's!

Seriously, either we don't care about that possibility or we're too cocky to think that somebody could actually snatch the rug out from underneath our feet like that.

Can you give us more specifics? Y'know, concrete things we can sink our teeth into?

 

[ChocolateMoose123]

It's possible that the ESFP doesn't like your delivery of being straight forward, accurate and stating your opinions. What's normal for you is too forceful for them.

I've found the ENTJ's that I know to be very forceful when doing these things. It's not personal. Just the way they are. But I can see how someone who values tactfulness and niceness can be turned off or even scared by it.

Also, If you state your opinions and they are opposed to the ESFP and you do this publicly - then you may have issues and the ESFP thinks there's a threat and it's fair game to get you out of there. Almost any boss I know would.

 

[awwsha]

I think it can all be on the delivery.

I would most likely get offended if I felt like the way you were suggesting things, even if meant in the best possible way, came across as a personal attack on my character. I hate feeling pin-pointed or critiqued for my way of doing things.

But ultimately I do like if people know what they are doing, so if the suggestions are shared in the right way I am most certainly going to think its great.

if i have an issue with an employee i always destroy them to their face. leave NO ROOM for misunderstanding. if there's been a problem it's got to be pulled out into the open and dealt with in plain words. i CAN'T STAND that quiet stewing, those disagreements/people that just hold SECRET GRUDGES and fester in the dark somewhere.

+1

I really think there is nothing worse in the whole world then quiet stewing. I dont even understand it.

 

[stellar renegade]

A+ to what everyone after me said.

Two interesting facets to an SP's personality:

1) We LOVE new practical solutions. I mean love, love, love. BUT:
2) We take open challenges to be fights. If there's no reason to fight, just smooth it over.

I have an ENTJ best friend. Before our personalities really developed (we both acted differently then) we got along great. Afterwards, we had fights pretty much constantly. Just about everything he says rubs me the wrong way, because he's so concerned about being blunt that he doesn't seem to care much for tact, or when he does, it's like he's trying to use the "facts" to push his particular agenda.

Now, I'm an in-charge type and that already pisses me off. But take an ESFP who is a collaborator more into suggestions? Oh boy. I'm sure that can give them a very bad feeling. And you know what kinds of reactions fear can produce.

 

[riddler79]

Hmmmm. I appreciate the feedback. I guess it is hard to say. Part of me gets annoyed with the fact that I feel like it is impossible to know which of these guys is the real person. It always seems like they are playing a part. As such, I have to rely on body language and microexpressions to know whether or not I am about to be attacked. It always seems to come via their boss, or rather, they tattle and try to make me look bad to their boss, when I am following what they said, but they say they didn't. One was lying so mucH, I ended up recording our conversations, and when he tried to fire me, I played those recordings for his boss, amd he just stated that wasn't what he meant.
I am rambling.
Hmmmm. I feel like there is great insight here, and dont want to waste it, it just seems hard to pinpoint situations, because it is every situation. I never know if a knife is gonna be shoved into my chest in some bottled up fit of rage.
Do I sound totally rediculous?

 

[stellar renegade]

You sound just like my friend. I almost wondered if you were him, hah. Except he's not into typology.

All I know is that either you guys know some REALLY f---ed up people, or you're paranoid. Seems like my ENTJ dad could turn plenty of molehills into mountains, too.

I dunno, judging from the experience I had with him, he's overly dramatic, which he also admits to. Not trying to judge your situation in that light, I've just had bad experiences.

 

[Kingfisher]

Two interesting facets to an SP's personality:

1) We LOVE new practical solutions. I mean love, love, love. BUT:
2) We take open challenges to be fights. If there's no reason to fight, just smooth it over.

definitely.
but yeah, i think for ESxP types, we have a real need to see things out in the open, to see conflicts out in the harsh light of day.

either we don't care about that possibility or we're too cocky to think that somebody could actually snatch the rug out from underneath our feet like that.

haha, EXACTLY++
well said.
haha.

 

[Black Phoenix]

Sometimes is not what you are saying, but the way you say things.

For example, i can take any critisicm or advice if told in a good way. But say it in an angry way, and I bet any ESFP will not take it in a good way.

Also, if your boss talks behind your back... he's just a cowardly ass. He shouldn't manage anything.

 

[stellar renegade]

Definitely. The only time I've talked behind anyone's back is when I knew that the immediate consequences of talking to their face would be too great (usually when they're an authority figure) and I needed support, and then I usually end up talking about it to them about it anyway (so it's kinda like brainstorming, too ). 99.9% of the time I prefer hashing things out to someone directly. It's all about getting it straight out of the horse's mouth, and confronting the problem head-on.

But I typically don't talk about people. It's too boring. If you're not right there, I probably forgot about you already and I'm onto something else. When people start complaining about managers I yawn, unless they're just seethingly vapid monsters from the black lagoon of hell or something. Give me a real problem, like a rule we need to break, and then I'm talking. But most of all I'm doing.

 

[Black Phoenix]

Well, there is an easy rule I follow regarding that:

If you don't have anything good to say about someone, don't say anything at all.
If you DO have something nice to say about someone, tell it to everyone you can.

 

[stellar renegade]

Well, there is an easy rule I follow regarding that:

If you don't have anything good to say about someone, don't say anything at all.
If you DO have something nice to say about someone, tell it to everyone you can.

I don't think any rule should be taken as absolute, though. Not saying anything would just pen up frustration. I generally just criticize someone's actions and always leave room for them to improve, even if only in the far distant future. It's not who they are, it's how they're acting, capisci? It would be terrible to just write them off as completely irredeemable. I don't think anyone deserves that.

 

[defragmybrain]

I'm surprised to see ESFP in managerial / higher up position (not that we can't, but it seems out of place and i feel like esfp woudl be too disorganized by nature to manage much..).
and this:
definitely.
but yeah, i think for ESxP types, we have a real need to see things out in the open, to see conflicts out in the harsh light of day.
OH MY GOD YES. so many poeple dont see that sometimes the best way to go about it is to JUST EFFING SAY IT OUT LOUD.

I've been known to tell people that i don't like them, straight up. In a very real way though, not confrontationally, just,
"Hey, so I don't think we should be communicating anymore. I really don't think we have much in common, and i'm not feelin' it. You don't offer me anything. I don't feel good, you don't inspire me, etc. Good bye".

 

[man]

if a esfp is givin u crap u just gotta smack them

sincelerly,
man (a fellow entj )

 

[stellar renegade]

I've been known to tell people that i don't like them, straight up. In a very real way though, not confrontationally, just,
"Hey, so I don't think we should be communicating anymore. I really don't think we have much in common, and i'm not feelin' it. You don't offer me anything. I don't feel good, you don't inspire me, etc. Good bye".

I've recently (finally) told my now ex-best friend shit like that. Ungh, that dude. :steam:

You're a fox, btw. Happy belated bday!

 

[Kingfisher]

I'm surprised to see ESFP in managerial / higher up position (not that we can't, but it seems out of place and i feel like esfp woudl be too disorganized by nature to manage much..).

i like to manage crews. i love to be a working manager - to work hands on at what i am good at. and then occasionally take a few minutes every once in a while to check up on my employees. just check up real quickly, JUST long enough to make sure they aren't burning anything down. quick, no lingering at all.
i really enjoy being asked for my opinion or help on a job, haha. what i mean is, i enjoy being pulled away from what i am doing to help and consult on something with somebody else. it breaks up your day, it keeps things fresh and interesting. i LOVE to problem solve+ so i like to be called on by employees, rather than direct them.

in the morning i get my people together and i give everybody very pointed and specific tasks to do. i make sure they understand it fully, and make it very clear that if they have problems or questions during the day they can and should come to me right away!
then everybody is set loose to do their thing (including me!!!).
so i get to work, i get to get my hands dirty too.

my feeling is that management can be pretty loose if the communication is there. i enjoy management a lot when i think of it as providing support. i think the best method is to be like a safety catch - just be there to keep people from running WAY outside the lines. people are pretty smart, they are usually a lot more creative and successful when they are free to follow their own hunches and ideas somewhat.

I've been known to tell people that i don't like them, straight up. In a very real way though, not confrontationally, just,
"Hey, so I don't think we should be communicating anymore. I really don't think we have much in common, and i'm not feelin' it. You don't offer me anything. I don't feel good, you don't inspire me, etc. Good bye".

yeah, i do that also.
it's got to be done. it saves so much wasted time and effort. it is really draining to have to battle it out with people, you have to gear up for it and set yourself into WAR MODE. it is better to avoid that whenever possible, just cut things cleanly at the source. before they get started or go out of control.

 

[stellar renegade]

Yep, you're a perfect example of the Keirsey CoWorkerâ„¢, Kingfisher. Everything you just said, and more.

As for me, I have TONS of ideas to give people so I inadvertently begin taking over their projects. But they tend to like it because they seem to be very receptive to what I have to say. I find that oftentimes people don't have direction and you just have to give them little nudges in the right direction. It's extremely fun to work with receptive types like that.