[ENFP] ENFP: The ENFP bitchslap

[Zarathustra]

When you're telling someone off, it's usually for catharsis (ie, you have no expectations from the person and want nothing more from them) or to demand that the person get in line and meet your expectations.

And THAT children, is why we like NFPs more than NFJs...

 

[Amargith]

I prefer not to strike at their heart. I prefer just telling them that I no longer can do this, and I need them to back off or I won't be held responsible for the consequences. I will do anything I can to keep myself from actually hurting someone, even in this state. If you keep pushing me (and now I'm talking, pushing my buttons in such a way that you drive me to full-blown hysteria), I will become mean and strike out of self-defense. And I will project every ounce of pain I have onto you, and make you feel it with me. I will attack your person and unload on you. I will paint you such a vivid picture of pain, you cannot help but experience it, and I promise you, you will feel pain, I will make sure of that. It is my intent at that point to force you to be me emotionally in that state, whether you like it or not. And there will be irreparable damage between us. I've done this with an ENTP before and it wasn't pretty. Nor am I proud that I made him cry. I loathe doing this.

I hate myself for doing so afterwards, no matter how much you deserved it. So I rarely do it. The only ones that can drive me to that point are those that I loved with whole my heart and let in fully, so they know me well enough to strike me right where it hurts. Very few have that kinda clearance to my heart though.

 

[garbage]

Assume society is evolutionarily designed so that all of the types ebb and flow to integrate us into a cohesive functional unit.

But folks like myself are so rare that we cant fit neatly into those patterns. We flow in the wrong way. I suspect most "personality disorders" are this sort of thing.

I would be very surprised if there were many ENFPs who didn't believe this about themselves.

.. especially E4's.

Dammit, contributing to the thread derail

I don't want to turn this into another "wah Fi thinks it's special" thread. I really don't.

So, nobody reply to my post. In fact, don't even read it.

 

[sculpting]

well, shit. suddenly i feel like my opinion didn't matter at all.

to hell with the both of you!

But I liked that part where you made fun of him!

Anyways here have another hug

I would be very surprised if there were many ENFPs who didn't believe this about themselves.

.. especially E4's.

Dammit, contributing to the thread derail

I don't want to turn this into another "wah Fi thinks it's special" thread. I really don't.

So, nobody reply to my post. In fact, don't even read it.

but it you are so special!!! I dunno, K-o-D said I am type 2, but 4 seemed familiar. Hey but I actually had an INTj tell me how weird I am-objective evidence of weirdness. However I wear it as a sign of pride.

The advantage-I see things other people miss. No, not dead people. People patterns I think. I dissect them, lay them all out, then construct solutions to help them. There is value in this I think.

 

[Lady_X]

haha...expectations and not wanting anything in return...that's funny mr. eyebrows.

 

[sculpting]

I prefer not to strike at their heart. I prefer just telling them that I no longer can do this, and I need them to back off or I won't be held responsible for the consequences. I will do anything I can to keep myself from actually hurting someone, even in this state. If you keep pushing me (and now I'm talking, pushing my buttons in such a way that you drive me to full-blown hysteria), I will become mean and strike out of self-defense. And I will project every ounce of pain I have onto you, and make you feel it with me. I will attack your person and unload on you. I will paint you such a vivid picture of pain, you cannot help but experience it, and I promise you, you will feel pain, I will make sure of that. It is my intent at that point to force you to be me emotionally in that state, whether you like it or not. And there will be irreparable damage between us. I've done this with an ENTP before and it wasn't pretty. Nor am I proud that I made him cry. I loathe doing this.

I hate myself for doing so afterwards, no matter how much you deserved it. So I rarely do it. The only ones that can drive me to that point are those that I loved with whole my heart and let in fully, so they know me well enough to strike me right where it hurts. Very few have that kinda clearance to my heart though.

Holy shit Amar-this was exactly what I was talking about earlier-not the bitchslap of rage-Instead the Fi attack. I did this once here. I was horrified by what I wrote -then put a lot of though into why I write it and sort of realized what it was.

It is a very direct attack meant to inflict my Fi pain back on the other person. It is meant to force them to mirror my Fi pain.

But it was all reactive, innate and programmed in nature-no preplanning or thought involved, just an instinctual defense mechanism. But yeah I felt horrible afterwords.

 

[BlueFlame]

And THAT children, is why we like NFPs more than NFJs...

Really? I wasn't aware that there were people out there who are free of expectations from other people.
There are those that will use different techniques to get their needs met from a certain target, and there are those who will just move and find a more willing and able person.
And there are those who will do both.

prefer not to strike at their heart. I prefer just telling them that I no longer can do this, and I need them to back off or I won't be held responsible for the consequences. I will do anything I can to keep myself from actually hurting someone, even in this state. If you keep pushing me (and now I'm talking, pushing my buttons in such a way that you drive me to full-blown hysteria), I will become mean and strike out of self-defense. And I will project every ounce of pain I have onto you, and make you feel it with me. I will attack your person and unload on you. I will paint you such a vivid picture of pain, you cannot help but experience it, and I promise you, you will feel pain, I will make sure of that. It is my intent at that point to force you to be me emotionally in that state, whether you like it or not. And there will be irreparable damage between us. I've done this with an ENTP before and it wasn't pretty. Nor am I proud that I made him cry. I loathe doing this.

I hate myself for doing so afterwards, no matter how much you deserved it. So I rarely do it. The only ones that can drive me to that point are those that I loved with whole my heart and let in fully, so they know me well enough to strike me right where it hurts. Very few have that kinda clearance to my heart though.

I think that's pretty typical NF fare, and why we're perceived as *soft* or unable to defend ourselves. We don't want to cause pain, we don't want to do irreparable damage, and we don't want to lose people we care about. And we don't want the guilt associated with it.
Actually, I think that's pretty much healthy human nature.

I think I've put my full-force of lashing out onto...two??...people. They were both very close to me, and they both hurt me deeply, and there was no way to every go back, which was probably my underlying intention.

[quoteIt is one thing to blow up at someone instantly, all unfocused and lash out in a random way..kinda like bitchslapping someone repeatedly. Sure they'll go 'wtf' but it won't *really* hurt. And yes, it can look...cute, I guess, to observers.[/quote]

This is what I meant. When someone gets all wildly F-y at me (and I'm an F, so I obviously get F-y at other people), it either confuses me, makes me roll my eyes, or makes me angry. There is no pain there.
I guess the whole, "You're the worst person ever, I never want to see you again, leave me alone" technique really bothers me when the real translation is, "I love you, please listen to me and understand what I'm saying and work things out. "

 

[sculpting]

fi fe difference perhaps...it's more about standing up for ourselves and tellin you to eff off i think by listing all the reasons we expect you to...haha or something.

EXACTLY.

Fi pain is displayed
Fi mirror is felt by the other
Te demands are made to resolve the initial pain
Te resolution

 

[Poki]

Holy shit Amar-this was exactly what I was talking about earlier-not the bitchslap of rage-Instead the Fi attack. I did this once here. I was horrified by what I wrote -then put a lot of though into why I write it and sort of realized what it was.

It is a very direct attack meant to inflict my Fi pain back on the other person. It is meant to force them to mirror my Fi pain.

But it was all reactive, innate and programmed in nature-no preplanning or thought involved, just an instinctual defense mechanism. But yeah I felt horrible afterwords.

So you dont feel horrible for the thought, but the pain caused to the other person.

 

[sculpting]

So you dont feel horrible for the thought, but the pain caused to the other person.

Always. For me-maybe because my Fi is not mature-pain felt by someone else is always far, far worse than my own pain. If you put me in a situation where my inadvertant actions have hurt another person, I am overwhelmed with their pain, waves of guilt and remorse.

I can distance myself from my pain and rationalize it and effectively wall it off. I cant do that for reflected mirrored pain if when I have no control over the situation. I cant resolve the pain of the other-thus get trapped in a very unhappy place.

 

[sculpting]

oh, this was funny-it might explain my dating life:

A quote from “The Scientist” this month in an article about personality diffs in fish:

“But having a personality is actually a stupid thing to do. Consider a species of spider in which particularly aggressive females have a leg up in fighting off predators and competing for food. That aggression, though, spills into another context-those females may not be able to hold back from cannibalizing a potential mate cutting off their chance to reproduce. This is clearly not optimal behavior.”


But he was so delicious.....

 

[Amargith]

This is what I meant. When someone gets all wildly F-y at me (and I'm an F, so I obviously get F-y at other people), it either confuses me, makes me roll my eyes, or makes me angry. There is no pain there.
I guess the whole, "You're the worst person ever, I never want to see you again, leave me alone" technique really bothers me when the real translation is, "I love you, please listen to me and understand what I'm saying and work things out. "

That's not the translation.

The translation pretty much is:

You've disappointed me to my core and I cannot understand why you'd do such a thing (in case of values and trust broken)

OR

You're hurting me..really hurting me, and you need to back off right now coz I can take no more and I don't wanna hurt you in return. Give me some breathing space to digest this all and get off my case.

 

[Zarathustra]

Always. For me-maybe because my Fi is not mature-pain felt by someone else is always far, far worse than my own pain. If you put me in a situation where my inadvertant actions have hurt another person, I am overwhelmed with their pain, waves of guilt and remorse.

I can distance myself from my pain and rationalize it and effectively wall it off. I cant do that for reflected mirrored pain if when I have no control over the situation. I cant resolve the pain of the other-thus get trapped in a very unhappy place.

I dunno, that sounds more like Fe hurting than Fi hurting to me...

 

[BlueFlame]

That's not the translation.

The translation pretty much is:

You've disappointed me to my core and I cannot understand why you'd do such a thing (in case of values and trust broken)

OR

You're hurting me..really hurting me, and you need to back off right now coz I can take no more and I don't wanna hurt you in return. Give me some breathing space to digest this all and get off my case.

The bolded results in wishy-washyness? As in, waxing emotionally and then apologizing later?

I agree that the other is also a possibility if someone is *coming at* you, but there are, nonetheless, plenty of times when people semi-rage because they want to be comforted or heard or generally made to feel better. The more immature the communication skills, the more often it occurs.

 

[Venom]

Eh, I don't consider ENFP *bitchslaps* to be all that painful. The problem is, they usually just end up being all about their feelings and how someone else made you feel this and that. How is that painful to another person? If it hurts me, it hurts me because I care about that person and I don't want them to hurt, not because of the string of overly emotional words they string together, like tears on paper.
If someone doesn't care, they could care less about your tears.

The key to causing pain is aiming straight for their heart, not your own.

fi fe difference perhaps...it's more about standing up for ourselves and tellin you to eff off i think by listing all the reasons we expect you to...haha or something.

and this is why im glad to be an FJ...


cathartic yelling just seems... low class? ...Not sure of the word that I'm looking for, but if yelling isn't being used as a way to affect the mood in a positive way (is it going to positively change people's behavior?), then what is the point?



Oh and, Amar, for the love of god, put INFP back!

 

[Jaguar]

cathartic yelling just seems... low class?

Don't be so hard on yourself.
The "idiot mother" you were yelling about 2 days ago, doesn't make you low class.

 

[Amargith]

The bolded results in wishy-washyness? As in, waxing emotionally and then apologizing later?

I agree that the other is also a possibility if someone is *coming at* you, but there are, nonetheless, plenty of times when people semi-rage because they want to be comforted or heard or generally made to feel better. The more immature the communication skills, the more often it occurs.

agreed on the frequency being linked to 'immaturity'. It's the frustration of not being heard in a debate, of being misunderstood, and at the same time being grilled which causes this blow-out. It feels like people are twisting your words on purpose and attacking you coz they can..it feels like a frigging nightmare.

AS for the first, it's..you know, a lot of us hold the value that you cannot force your beliefs on someone else. But when someone catches you off guard and does something you just cannot believe they did...which hurts you to your core coz you got blindsighted, the first reaction often is this one..it's an unfiltered reaction. Only later does Fi get around to going: oh wait..I see how they got to this action/belief, and I should respect their right to believe/do what they want => appology


Bab: only when you confess to being ENTJ

There's a reason that many of us feel embarassed afterwards and appologize. But in many ways, I find this to be the most blunt honesty there is and there's something pure and beautiful about it. And it is cathartic. Often people get stuck in a loop of resentment due to social restrictions of overpoliteness, which allows thigns to fester to a point where it's just...an insurmountable obstacle nobody knows how to tackle anymore. Till one day it explodes..and you get things thrown at your head from like 7 years ago. And it's too late to fix any of it.

Give me ENFP bluntness, honesty and catharsis anyday.

 

[Windigo]

"Waaaaaaaaaaaah I was hit in the face by a little child and the idiot mother did nothing!!!!!"

This is ridiculous! Is this true? That's when you get down on one knee and take the child by the shoulders and tell him/her firmly, "You do not hit, it is not acceptable." (Please resist the urge to add, "You don't want something BAD to happen to you, do you?" as it could be read as a threat in a courtroom.) The mom will usually be so freaked out that you touched her kid she'll gather him/her up and leave. (Make sure to smile sweetly as she glares at you.)

The end result indirectly gives the kid the following boundary: If you hit random strangers you don't get to stay and play. End of story. Which is the message the mom should have given her little sweetheart to begin with.

Now is this an example of Dom Te or Tertiary Fe?

 

[BlueFlame]

cathartic yelling just seems... low class? ...Not sure of the word that I'm looking for, but if yelling isn't being used as a way to affect the mood in a positive way, then what is the point?

That's why you're supposed to put your unstable Fi on paper, read it, rip out the pages, and throw them away. Or go in a closet and scream.
No good comes from looking/sounding like a nutcase. I know...I've been there.

 

[BlueFlame]

agreed on the frequency being linked to 'immaturity'. It's the frustration of not being heard in a debate, of being misunderstood, and at the same time being grilled which causes this blow-out. It feels like people are twisting your words on purpose and attacking you coz they can..it feels like a frigging nightmare.

Definitely been there! It sounds a lot like growing up with my brother and mother.
People can only attack (or be perceived to be be attacking) so much before that Fi is going to freak out and you're going to go with whatever your gut reaction is to stop it.

AS for the first, it's..you know, a lot of us hold the value that you cannot force your beliefs on someone else. But when someone catches you off guard and does something you just cannot believe they did...which hurts you to your core coz you got blindsighted, the first reaction often is this one..it's an unfiltered reaction. Only later does Fi get around to going: oh wait..I see how they got to this action/belief, and I should respect their right to believe/do what they want => appology

Hmmm. So is the result the same if there was ill intent? Doesn't an apology destroy the positive effects of brutal honesty? I get that it may alleviate your guilt, but relationship-wise, doesn't it result in a lack of boundaries? Or can you apologize and keep the boundary intact? My experience with *unhealthy* (I hate using that word, but I want to make the distinction) is that, in the heat of the moment, they'll do the right thing (subjective, obviously, but still), and then back-peddle because they have that propensity for making allowances for people. Get their catharsis and get right back in the line of fire.

This is ridiculous! Is this true? That's when you get down on one knee and take the child by the shoulders and tell him/her firmly, "You do not hit, it is not acceptable." The mom will usually be so freaked out that you touched her kid she'll gather him/her up and leave. (Make sure to smile sweetly as she glares at you.)

The end result indirectly gives the kid the following boundary: If you hit random strangers you don't get to stay and play. End of story. Which is the message the mom should have given her little sweetheart to begin with.

Yeah, if a stranger touched my child, he would get far more than a glare and a retreat.