[ESFJ] Does everyone REALLY have an ESFJ mom?

[Cimarron]

And there have been loads of children throughout history resulting from unplanned pregnancies, in or out of married relationships. Women of all types have sex and are capable of conceiving. In so many cases motherhood has barely been a "choice", and that would apply to the generation of our moms and grandmothers too, in large part.

And that would often not result in the kind of prolonged, constant contact with your mother that I'm talking about, which is part of my (half-hearted) point.

As for ESFJ men, I don't think I have a huge problem identifying them. One of my best friends is one, and I think he "acts" ESTPish, because he wants to be seen that way. Maybe I have trouble identifying ISFJ men, though.

 

[SilkRoad]

And that would often not result in the kind of prolonged, constant contact with your mother that I'm talking about, which is part of my (half-hearted) point.

It just as often would result in that type of "prolonged constant contact" though. Scenario: married couple doesn't want kids but she falls pregnant accidentally. That doesn't automatically mean that she is going to be a distant mother or dislike the kid. (I know enough people who have been in this scenario and they have usually turned out to be great moms.)

Although I don't have statistics to hand, there are also huge numbers of single moms who end up with a kid and don't give them up for adoption, or abandon them, or become distant neglectful moms. I feel there are way way way too many variables here. I would suspect too that a mom in such a situation might seem less like an xSFJ type because of not having that traditional "nuclear family" background. Regardless of what her real type is, I would guess that a mom in a "traditional family" is more likely to be typed as xSFJ, and a single mom who is working constantly to support herself and the child, dating different guys, etc might seem more like...well, like xxFP or xxTP, anyway.

I also very much doubt that every xSFJ woman "wants" kids. How can things possibly be that simple?

 

[Cimarron]

I would suspect too that a mom in such a situation might seem less like an xSFJ type because of not having that traditional "nuclear family" background. Regardless of what her real type is, I would guess that a mom in a "traditional family" is more likely to be typed as xSFJ, and a single mom who is working constantly to support herself and the child, dating different guys, etc might seem more like...well, like xxFP or xxTP, anyway.

I think that supports both of our views, kind of...

I also very much doubt that every xSFJ woman "wants" kids. How can things possibly be that simple?

Of course not, but I never intended that. Just more likely than others, for the reasons I gave above. More inclined to traditional role, duty, and social expectation.

 

[SilkRoad]

I think that supports both of our views, kind of...


Of course not, but I never intended that. Just more likely than others, for the reasons I gave above. More inclined to traditional role, duty, and social expectation.

Yeah, I see what you mean about it supporting both our views.

I think it leads me to contemplate whether MBTI is both nature and nurture, whereas I've always understood it was supposed to be pretty much purely nature.

And if the circumstances/societal expectations/etc around someone have led them to act like an ESFJ and even consider themselves ESFJ...does that mean that really is what they are, or is their "real" type being "hidden" from them by environment or circumstances?

 

[Glycerine]

I would love to see someone volunteer their grandmother as ISTP or ENTP or something like that. I think PB said one of her grandmas is INTJ, though.

Is there an argument that in the last few decades (like, since our moms and grandmothers) there are more T women than there used to be?

It could make sense in some ways, but if MBTI is really nature rather than nurture, I don't think that should be the case.

I think my grandma is ISTP?

 

[SilkRoad]

I think my grandma is ISTP?

That's awesome.

 

[Orangey]

Fuck no, my mom is an ESTJ hardass, and my paternal grandmother is an ISTJ. I don't know about my maternal grandmother, though...she may well be ESFJ. There are a lot of them in this world.

 

[Giggly]

Yeah, I see what you mean about it supporting both our views.

I think it leads me to contemplate whether MBTI is both nature and nurture, whereas I've always understood it was supposed to be pretty much purely nature.

And if the circumstances/societal expectations/etc around someone have led them to act like an ESFJ and even consider themselves ESFJ...does that mean that really is what they are, or is their "real" type being "hidden" from them by environment or circumstances?

You ask some good questions.

 

[Halla74]

Americans in particular?

Seriously, I know this is turning into a bit of a hangup for me...but it just seems like I've read a truly disproportionate number of descriptions of ESFJ moms (ie. when people list the types of family members, etc). Dads, brothers and sisters can be pretty much any type at all. Moms are 99% ESFJ!

I have serious doubts about this. I mean, I'm sure there are plenty of ESFJ moms (quite a few people seem to have ISFJs too) but...I just can't believe there are that many. Other types of women reproduce. What also seems noteworthy is that a majority of people who talk about their relationship with their "ESFJ mom" will describe her as annoying, interfering, etc. Almost as though if you have a mom you don't get along with, she has to be ESFJ.

It just seems very much like a variant on the "all annoying/domineering bosses, dads and just people are ESTJs" trope. I think a lot of (particularly American, of a certain generation) women have been socialized to act very ESFJ - or else that's the default for "annoying mom" type. I remember reading in an Enneagram book that for women over 40, test results of 2 should be taken with a grain of salt because there will probably be a disproportionate and inaccurate number of these results. Very similar to the ESFJ thing, I think.

Thoughts? Or am I just a crank? For the record, my mom is probably an INTJ. She is definitely IxxJ and she is almost certainly not a Feeler.

My Mama is an INFJ.

 

[Unkindloving]

My Mothra is another ENFJ, but a total herb and stereotypical 'Mom' in a lot of her lectures and sentiments .
The only people I've known with esfj moms are INFPs from this forum, unless they've just been off my radar in real life.

 

[Firelie]

I'm pretty sure my mom's an ENFP, actually.

 

[Coriolis]

I would love to see someone volunteer their grandmother as ISTP or ENTP or something like that. I think PB said one of her grandmas is INTJ, though.

I did not know my grandmothers well enough to type them, and I'm sure my mother is ESFJ, but I know plenty of mothers who are not. My SO's mother is almost surely ISFP; I have women friends with adult children who are ISTJ, INFJ, and ENTJ; and one with younger kids who is ENFP. We on this thread are too small a sample to generalize from our responses.

Is there an argument that in the last few decades (like, since our moms and grandmothers) there are more T women than there used to be?

It could make sense in some ways, but if MBTI is really nature rather than nurture, I don't think that should be the case.

Maybe more women are testing as Ts because there is less pressure on them to internalize F behaviors. In any case, I would not be surprised if there was some sort of genetic selection over the ages resulting in the T/F gender difference.

I mean, do people think it's a real aberration for my mom to be INTJ? I'm almost getting that impression from some posts. And she did want kids. It was not forced upon her.

In a way it is, since so few women are INTJ to begin with.

 

[Eilonwy]

Yeah, I see what you mean about it supporting both our views.

I think it leads me to contemplate whether MBTI is both nature and nurture, whereas I've always understood it was supposed to be pretty much purely nature.

And if the circumstances/societal expectations/etc around someone have led them to act like an ESFJ and even consider themselves ESFJ...does that mean that really is what they are, or is their "real" type being "hidden" from them by environment or circumstances?

First, let me state again that I am no expert. What follows is only my personal opinion. As far as nature vs. nurture, in any instance, I think it's just so much more complex than any of us can wrap our brains around. That's why we constantly search for a more simplified answer that ends up not really fitting the bill. But, I believe, it still can further our understanding even if it's not perfect. An analogy would be the weather. We can predict it to some degree, but not to perfection. Too many variables.

With MBTI, I keep reminding myself that what's being predicted are preferences, not absolutes. MBTI is good at predicting those with strong preferences, IMO. I think nature wires us a certain way. Some of that wiring is fairly stable. For example, I strongly prefer introversion. Circumstances, upbringing, societal expectations, and practice on my part can change that to a degree, but in the end, I will need alone time to re-energize. However, some of that wiring is more malleable. If I was wired with a lesser preference for introversion, I might have more success with extraverting, but probably would still need some alone time to re-energize.

On the other hand, there's not much difference between my preference of T or F. My upbringing made it clear that T was preferred to F for various reasons, so my T got more practice. Until I learned more, I thought I was a T. But my brain works in a more pattern-oriented fashion than a linear one, so I think I'm wired to prefer F.

So, let's say society expects mothers to act as if they are ESFJ. Add to that that their mom raised them with the same expectations, and circumstances of parenthood force them to practice to be ESFJ. If they weren't initially wired ESFJ, and they don't have strong preferences, it's possible that, even to themselves, they will appear to be ESFJ. And possibly the initial wiring is malleable enough that they are ESFJ. I don't know if we know enough about the brain and how changeable it is or isn't to say for sure. But, then again, if the brain is that malleable, then after the societal pressure and parenthood expectations are over and done with (the kids grow up and leave home), then perhaps the stronger preferences will once again come to fore. (If I actually were T, maybe I would be saying this better. )

I hope that made some sense and isn't just a big mess of mental vomit.