[ENTJ] Do you consider ENTJs to be NTs ?

[Virtual ghost]

Do you trully see ENTJs as NTs or as something a little bit separate ?


I am starting this thread because in my years of studying typology I have come over and over to the subtle conclusions around the internet that ENTJs are not considerent to be trully NTs.
You have NTPs, super intelligent scientific/philosophical people that make all kinds of ideas and inventions, you have INTJs that are ultra competent, private, very long range thinkers and then you have ENTJs (the narcissoid assholes)

The problem with such definitions is that ENTJ type may actually attract various power hungly assholes that may not be ENTJ at all. What will only proves the sterotype. On the other hand I have noticed that there is a number of ENTJs that define(d) themselves as some other type. (mostly as INTJs) This is especially true for people that are not Americans and are not so bound to the American capitalist thoughts. What makes the ENTJ possibly the most culturally biased type of all of them. In other words what ENTJ type represents often has completely different flavour than the rest of NTs. What is weird if we consider that in theory ENTJs are NTs.


When I type through function tests I come as Te dom but when I take a look at type profiles INTJ may fit me better in many in many ways. What is because NT nature of INTJ type is so much more expressed while in ENTJ you often have "great leaders, wantes success, avoids emo stuff, great leaders, wantes success, avoids emo stuff great leaders, wantes success, avoids emo stuff". What points to the fact that the ENTJ profiles are often much less developed than the profiles of other NTs. Similar can happen when I take 4 letter MBTI test since on such tests there is too strong correlation in E and very cheap Fe. However if you would twist the question like "Do you explore outdoors with your friends", "Do you debate people often and on purpose", "Do you notice holes in peoples logic as soon as they talk", "Do you tell other people what to do and they listen" etc. there would be whole different story. However on such tests in 90% of cases T is my strongest letter, when I vote for intuitive answer it is mostly correct but when I vote for T answer I trully align with almost all of such questions (and I am surrely a J). When I am physically healthy I test as slight extrovert since I am pretty ambiverted person, however 4 letter tests often don't really get the nature of my extroversion that is pretty goal oriented or practical ... especially when compared with Fe/Ne chat.


For 9 years I had struggles with this and only now when I managed to get my life back on track I finally came to agreement with myself that I am slightly mistyped due to cultural bias as well as very shallow profiles and the general concensus that ENTJs are not really NTs. What is wrong since ENTJ is basically nothing more than INTJ that has easier time engaging the environment (at the cost of internal life). Therefore bringing the political concepts into this is probably a bad idea since it creates bias. I find the fieldmarshal thing flatering and in RL relations with others I often come this way but I think this is too hostile definition, that can also be very hard to measure up to. It fits ENTJs that are Sx doms but it can be alienating to many that are not Sx doms ... even if they have a history of ENTJ scores.


Thought?

 

[ZNP-TBA]

I think leading with Te throws some people off. An ENTJ with really dominant use of Te is going to come off as maybe an ESTJ or ISTJ and all the associated stereotypes. Strong Te use ( at least from the outside) can mask the Ni aspect of ENTJs. Not to mention that ENTJs have Se as a tertiary so a combination of Te and Se can really make them seem like they operate 'in the moment' and do not really abstract patterns like Ni.

 

[qvercvs]

I think there are two different types of ENTJs, depending on their use of the Ni function: The more narcissoid, specially when immature, using their Ni as a mean for reaching the social stablished goals, and the ones, who set their own goals using their Ni. The second ones are more typical NTs. In all cases, ENTJs have a stronger tendence than other NTs to become alienated by societies, I guess.

 

[Virtual ghost]

I think leading with Te throws some people off. An ENTJ with really dominant use of Te is going to come off as maybe an ESTJ or ISTJ and all the associated stereotypes. Strong Te use ( at least from the outside) can mask the Ni aspect of ENTJs. Not to mention that ENTJs have Se as a tertiary so a combination of Te and Se can really make them seem like they operate 'in the moment' and do not really abstract patterns like Ni.

I never saw myself as specially intimidating or moving since I was just doing my thing and what needs to be done or I simply ventured into wilderness/world for my own fun. However I have started to go through the replays of people's ractions and realized that if I am not delibrately careful that I comes as intimidating on some way, not to mention that stereotypical INTJ doesn't hear "calm down, quiet down" everyday. I recently came into a group of fairly stereotypical nerds of my age and realized how different I am from people there on some fundamental levels. Also I am pretty good in debates and real life examples and I almost never leave things open and in the air like a typical N dom. What throws most of the N people off since I kill potential for disscusion and potentially fun, I just have to nail it that there isn't room for interpretation. I clearly don't belong to mainstream S values but I never managed to fit into N "rebels" either since I am not "creative" enough. In face to face my intution indeed isn't too observable on the first look even if I see it clearly, but it seems that others often do not. (and inferior Fi can make self analysis pretty hard at times)

I think there are two different types of ENTJs, depending on their use of the Ni function: The more narcissoid, specially when immature, using their Ni as a mean for reaching the social stablished goals, and the ones, who set their own goals using their Ni. The second ones are more typical NTs. In all cases, ENTJs have a stronger tendence than other NTs to become alienated by societies, I guess.

I guess I would be in the second group.
What exactly do you mean with bolded part ?

 

[qvercvs]

An ENTJs self esteem is usually depending on how others (society) perceive that they are achievers or that they aren't. If an ENTJ notices that the people around him/her think he/she is a loser, would mind the most between the NTs. Followed by INTJ, ENTP, INTP, in my opinion. That's why they can become alienated, doing things they don't really care, just to avoid being losers.

 

[senza tema]

I think you make some good points about cultural bias in the ENTJ descriptions, [MENTION=4347]Virtual ghost[/MENTION]. From what I've seen, ENTJ descriptions prioritize behavior over cognition, more so than the descriptions of other types. Which is problematic, given that behavior is so culturally influenced. Leadership and authority aren't really patterns of thinking though ... they're modes of acting. And there's certainly more to leadership than the American boardroom although the descriptions don't really suggest that.

 

[Virtual ghost]

An ENTJs self esteem is usually depending on how others (society) perceive that they are achievers or that they aren't. If an ENTJ notices that the people around him/her think he/she is a loser, would mind the most between the NTs. Followed by INTJ, ENTP, INTP, in my opinion. That's why they can become alienated, doing things they don't really care, just to avoid being losers.

That rings quite a few bells to be honest. I justified this as Self preservation but this is basically it. Thanks.

 

[Virtual ghost]

I think you make some good points about cultural bias in the ENTJ descriptions, [MENTION=4347]Virtual ghost[/MENTION]. From what I've seen, ENTJ descriptions prioritize behavior over cognition, more so than the descriptions of other types. Which is problematic, given that behavior is so culturally influenced. Leadership and authority aren't really patterns of thinking though ... they're modes of acting. And there's certainly more to leadership than the American boardroom although the descriptions don't really suggest that.

I find the leadership part to be correct in general since I boss people around and people come to me in search for solutions. However many profiles are simply very one dimensional, there is no "why" or "how" this came to be. Leadership doesn't have to mean company building ... especailly if you didn't grow up in capitalistic environment/country. The profiles simply lack depth and attract people with narcissoid personality disorder. Creating something that doesn't look really NTish at all.

 

[hjgbujhghg]

ENTJs are not really separated in my mind, though the idea of their type is different than the idea of other NTs. They are more like a cross in between passionate, agressive ESTPs and geeky analytical NTs.

 

[ChocolateMoose123]

ENTJs are not really separated in my mind, though the idea of their type is different than the idea of other NTs. They are more like a cross in between passionate, agressive ESTPs and geeky analytical NTs.

Exactly. The first motorcycle shop I worked for, my boss was an ENTJ. This is how I would describe him. One of his favorite sayings was "This shop is not a democracy. It's a dictatorship."

He was really into reading people and motivations and would analyze them. He also said that is how he used to race. He would read the rider. He would know what they were going to do. He also would express a pychic quality (he didn't believe in psychics) to "knowing what was going to happen" and when I hear someone say that I usually attribute it to having Ni in a stack.

He had this whole Ni framework and put it toward Te to express it. Se was in the background.

 

[Virtual ghost]

ENTJs are not really separated in my mind, though the idea of their type is different than the idea of other NTs. They are more like a cross in between passionate, agressive ESTPs and geeky analytical NTs.

I think this is the work of Enneagram. Most of NTPs and INTJs are head types while most of ENTJs are gut types.

 

[Evo]

ENTJs are not really separated in my mind, though the idea of their type is different than the idea of other NTs. They are more like a cross in between passionate, agressive ESTPs and geeky analytical NTs.

This.

What is wrong since ENTJ is basically nothing more than INTJ that has easier time engaging the environment (at the cost of internal life).

Especially this.

I find the fieldmarshal thing flatering and in RL relations with others I often come this way but I think this is too hostile definition.

This.

not to mention that stereotypical INTJ doesn't hear "calm down, quiet down" everyday

This.

I think this is the work of Enneagram. Most of NTPs and INTJs are head types while most of ENTJs are gut types.

And this.

 

[Annaifiwas]

Like so many have said before, you have the Te users and the Ni users. In fact, if you rely heavily on Te without using much Ni, you will come off as the "dictator", "leader", "arsehole" etc. An ENTJ With great use of Ni and less of Te, may even come off as an ENFJ, kind, pleasant in dialogue and even affectionate! Most of us rarely use one of these functions to such extremes that we will fit into the "dictator" box, nor the "bubbly" one.
As stereotypes are easy to rely on for many people in this world, that is why many overall descriptions present us as damned "jerks".

Source:
Socionics Types: LIE-ENTj Subtypes

 

[Jaguar]

Exactly. The first motorcycle shop I worked for, my boss was an ENTJ. This is how I would describe him. One of his favorite sayings was "This shop is not a democracy. It's a dictatorship."

He actually used that word? Fuck him and the horse he rode in on.

 

[VeniVidiVertigo]

per definition, ENTJs are NT. Even if God himself sided with the "subtle conclusions around the internet" and "considered them not to be trully NTs." ENTJs would still be NTs.

Like, if someones conception of «ENTJ» fails to match up with their subjective generalization of what a «rational» should be (classifications like «scientist» «mastermind» «inventor» «architect» «logician» «analyst» etc.) is not really relevant as it has nothing to do with the actual functions (Psycological Types p.330 – 403.).

You said: «The problem with such definitions is that ENTJ type may actually attract various power hungly assholes that may not be ENTJ at all»

Yes, and here is how i detect them in forums:

They write and make arguments corresponding to how they think an ENTJ would, but end up exaggerating by being purposefully offensive and rude.
Their arguments are often not their own, but collected from ideas they don't fully understand.
Their rationale is flawed and they exaggerate objectivity.
Their profile picture is probably a super villain, historical warlord or Richard Dawkins.

 

[Coriolis]

I find the leadership part to be correct in general since I boss people around and people come to me in search for solutions. However many profiles are simply very one dimensional, there is no "why" or "how" this came to be. Leadership doesn't have to mean company building ... especailly if you didn't grow up in capitalistic environment/country. The profiles simply lack depth and attract people with narcissoid personality disorder. Creating something that doesn't look really NTish at all.

Well, you cannot judge the ENTJ type profile based on narcissists who choose erroneously to identify with it.

The difference between ENTJ and INTJ is much like the difference between ESTJ and ISTJ. I read somewhere the comparison that ISTJs value following rules, traditions, and established processes very closely, while ESTJs value getting others to follow them as well. An oversimplification, of course, but it has a few grains of truth. The Ni/Te (or Te/Ni) combination helps NTJs see the consequences of various options and find the best way of doing something. Having Te first seems to give the ENTJ the greater immediate drive to make that happen (make external reality conform to the vision). The INTJ in contrast is often more willing to let things unfold or let someone else take charge if it seems things are going in the general direction he/she wants. For the ENTJ, Ni provides the vision to direct the action he wants to take. For the INTJ, Te provides the means of realizing the vision she already has. It's a bit like the chicken/egg question, with each type having a different answer.

Like so many have said before, you have the Te users and the Ni users. In fact, if you rely heavily on Te without using much Ni, you will come off as the "dictator", "leader", "arsehole" etc. An ENTJ With great use of Ni and less of Te, may even come off as an ENFJ, kind, pleasant in dialogue and even affectionate!

One of my close friends is an ENTJ and comes across exactly this way. She is very social in a networking sort of way, almost like a politician, though she is not in politics. She knows everyone in her neighborhood and takes part in numerous neighborhood/city improvement activities. She rescues stray dogs from the streets, even approaching neglectful owners to give the animals up (they do). If you talk with her, it doesn't take long to realize this all has nothing to do with Fe, and everything to do with wanting to take action in the world to make it more like her ideal.

 

[highlander]

Do you trully see ENTJs as NTs or as something a little bit separate ?
I am starting this thread because in my years of studying typology I have come over and over to the subtle conclusions around the internet that ENTJs are not considerent to be trully NTs.
You have NTPs, super intelligent scientific/philosophical people that make all kinds of ideas and inventions, you have INTJs that are ultra competent, private, very long range thinkers and then you have ENTJs (the narcissoid assholes)

In other words what ENTJ type represents often has completely different flavour than the rest of NTs. What is weird if we consider that in theory ENTJs are NTs.

I think it's true that ENTJs do come across as a different flavor of NT. I was thinking this the other day in fact that they feel a bit more like ESTJs. It's all that Extraverted Thinking, which can come across as abrasive and judgmental. That being said, I have known many ENTJs who did not come across as either.

 

[VeniVidiVertigo]

One of my close friends is an ENTJ and comes across exactly this way. She is very social in a networking sort of way, almost like a politician, though she is not in politics. She knows everyone in her neighborhood and takes part in numerous neighborhood/city improvement activities. She rescues stray dogs from the streets, even approaching neglectful owners to give the animals up (they do). If you talk with her, it doesn't take long to realize this all has nothing to do with Fe, and everything to do with wanting to take action in the world to make it more like her ideal.

Sounds like she is living a good example, instead of talking about it.

 

[VeniVidiVertigo]

I mean, she sounds like a good person. And seems to have found a way to express her goodnes through action.

 

[Axwell]

yes dey clearly are NTs considerin dey have NT in their title

lol dumbass