[INTJ] Do some types of ENFPs occasionally mimic INTJ behaviour?

[eastern_enfp]

Hello.

Put aside the stereotype of a fluffly ENFP and a grim INTJ for a moment. Consider another possibility and tell me if you have encountered the situation described below. It is possible that this applies (if at all) only in the more mature types of ENFPs, and that too, probably only with ENFP/T. I'd like to hear from you especially if you have actually encountered this situation (yourself or by close association). Theoretical perspectives and conjectures from others are welcome too.

As a mature, 'trained by life' ENFP/T woman in her middle-ages, I find myself behaving more and more like an INTJ. I've questioned my type at one point, briefly, but established myself quickly to not be an INTJ (and still definitely an ENFP!) because of the tendency to procrastinate and refusing to come to conclusions easily (fence-sitting). There is some context you may want to know. I am including that as the last section of this post.

But the following are some of the INTJ behaviours I see _consistently_ in myself now:
* Serious achievement-focus (wish and action, but inconsistent action) with plunging myself into hours and hours of single-minded work, hardly stopping for anything
* Need for quiet, alone-time after some level of socializing; needing a lot of me-time these days
* Strong preference for receiving empathy over sympathy; much better ability to provide empathy, rather than sympathy
* Preference to be trusted with my competence and ability to re-emerge when down & out, preference for quiet support that either just listens or helps me think through properly in times of stress
* A greater fondness for the machine and people behind machines (online, virtual etc.) than actual people and actual conversations. I am by no means an unsocial person but it is just that I am able to be more free with my ideas from behind a chat/text input interface than while talking face-to-face.
* I have no need and have never had a serious need to party etc. I prefer the quiet company of one or two over a group any day
* The brain is the most sexy organ (I mean, most attractive)
* Respect precedes (and has to precede) love. In all cases except toddlers, may be.
* No interest in gifts or surprises. Quality time, acts of service trump gifts any day. A long conversation filled with a variety of perspectives on a topic in depth (you pick the topic!) is energizing.
* Have a variety of interests ranging from Physics to Music to Child Psychology to Politics... happy to adopt and get knowledgeable about topics that dear ones like to talk about
* Believe in consistency in enforcing rules, but with reasonable leeway to allow people to learn without feeling unduly guilty. Balance between faith in the person's potential vs. punishment
* A powerful, well-defined internal value system of right and wrong

A lot of this feels like INTJ now to me.

I am unable to find the correct reasoning for this behaviour using just cognitive functions and attitudes.

Context: It has been a stressful several years in a row. Is this perhaps the ENFP under strain, becoming a more mature, stable person? I can still, on a happy day, or around small children, switch back to being captain-wild-child. But those occasions are becoming less frequent now, frankly. I am more serious and sober than I ever have been. And also more consistent, reliable and thorough in planning (Te).

Would you be able to explain this behaviour/preference, in terms of an ENFP's functions, please? If you need more information, happy to provide.

Thank you!

 

[Sacrophagus]

The oddity of this coincidence.
I am seeing an ENFP woman with almost the same symptoms. Let's make a comparison.

* Serious achievement-focus (wish and action, but inconsistent action) with plunging myself into hours and hours of single-minded work, hardly stopping for anything

She has achievements in three different fields. She's passionate about all of them, and has many others she'd like to try. The key sentence is "would like to try". *laughs*

* Need for quiet, alone-time after some level of socializing; needing a lot of me-time these days

Yep. She can be a great host, but she will need a lot of time to recharge. Either me-time, or time with someone who energizes her.

* Strong preference for receiving empathy over sympathy; much better ability to provide empathy, rather than sympathy

She'd rather receive sympathy from the right people.

* Preference to be trusted with my competence and ability to re-emerge when down & out, preference for quiet support that either just listens or helps me think through properly in times of stress

"Say something nice or shut up".
If someone hurts her when she's weak, they regret that when she's strong again.

* A greater fondness for the machine and people behind machines (online, virtual etc.) than actual people and actual conversations. I am by no means an unsocial person but it is just that I am able to be more free with my ideas from behind a chat/text input interface than while talking face-to-face.

Not machines. She reads books to drop them and learns a little bit of every language.

* I have no need and have never had a serious need to party etc. I prefer the quiet company of one or two over a group any day

She despises frivolous partying and the ostentatious life for vanity points.

* The brain is the most sexy organ (I mean, most attractive)

She would shake your hand.

* Respect precedes (and has to precede) love. In all cases except toddlers, may be.

She would shake your hand again.

* No interest in gifts or surprises. Quality time, acts of service trump gifts any day.

She loves the act of gifts' giving and charity work in the hospitals which is probably part of her quality time when it's done with someone she appreciates.

. A long conversation filled with a variety of perspectives on a topic in depth (you pick the topic!) is energizing.
* Have a variety of interests ranging from Physics to Music to Child Psychology to Politics... happy to adopt and get knowledgeable about topics that dear ones like to talk about

Yeah. Long walks that start from a single subject, she then asks a question seemingly unrelated to the topic which we ponder, then I answer, then she opens a parenthesis, then she opens another parenthesis inside that fucking parenthesis and I have to close that parenthesis to get to the previous parenthesis, and she keeps asking these questions and summoning ideas that she doesn't know where they're coming from, as they are appearing from nowhere like tree leaves scattered on the ground, and what I do is point out the tree, where every of those leaves belong, and it's fucking orgasmic.

* Believe in consistency in enforcing rules, but with reasonable leeway to allow people to learn without feeling unduly guilty. Balance between faith in the person's potential vs. punishment
* A powerful, well-defined internal value system of right and wrong

She has a strong Fi system. She believes in Freedom, but believes in its limits too. She has many opinionated views about many subjects. If someone dares challenging her beliefs, well, I just get some pop corn.

She's also dependable under a leadership she trusts, otherwise, if she doesn't trust you, she will ask you baffling questions you cannot possibly answer.

I can still, on a happy day, or around small children, switch back to being captain-wild-child.

She's strong and mature, but she's not grim. She's always a spoiled and annoying brat as far as I'm concerned since she feels safe and secure enough to let her playful side emerge and use words like "smoochies", wtf.

-----------

Many of these are undoubtedly a sign of maturity.

 

[Luminous]

Would you be able to explain this behaviour/preference, in terms of an ENFP's functions, please? If you need more information, happy to provide.

I'm left scratching my head as to why you think some of these are INTJ specific.

* Need for quiet, alone-time after some level of socializing; needing a lot of me-time these days

ENFPs are often called the most introverted extrovert

* Strong preference for receiving empathy over sympathy; much better ability to provide empathy, rather than sympathy
* The brain is the most sexy organ (I mean, most attractive)
* Respect precedes (and has to precede) love. In all cases except toddlers, may be.
* A powerful, well-defined internal value system of right and wrong

Fi

* Have a variety of interests ranging from Physics to Music to Child Psychology to Politics... happy to adopt and get knowledgeable about topics that dear ones like to talk about

Ne

 

[PumpkinMayCare]

Congrats! You've tamed your Ne-wild child, your Fi-emotional biest, connected with your Te and even gone so far as to explore it in depth, and then integrated it into your system.

I totally know what you're talking about. I still remember when I was about 22 and started to take on the ride to integrate my Te. I can not say it was always a fun ride Because really, it has changed pretty much everything. The plus is: I became a huge lot more organized, reliant, defined in my values and more outspoken on them, committed to my projects, work, and life and people in general, find it easier to talk about my values (and shred them to pieces if convinced they're bullshit), find it way easier to set boundaries without blowing up in true Fi-fashion, more determined than ever to actually achieve a goal, but also set priorities on what do to and when to do, overall just way more committed and in control of my life. On top of that, well ... have I already mentioned just everything has changed? It's hard to put in words, really - but last but not least, with Te came a whole new - let's call it lense - with which I can look at the world. I understand things differently now, have developed a way to view things I never could before. It's really, really strange. A whole new way of thinking about things. Scary ... 'cause it means I don't think I'll ever be the same. But I'm grateful for having Te, makes life less complicated and helps navigating the real world (and ourselves) without that darn rose-coloured glasses.

 

[Coriolis]

A lot of this feels like INTJ now to me.

I am unable to find the correct reasoning for this behaviour using just cognitive functions and attitudes.

Context: It has been a stressful several years in a row. Is this perhaps the ENFP under strain, becoming a more mature, stable person? I can still, on a happy day, or around small children, switch back to being captain-wild-child. But those occasions are becoming less frequent now, frankly. I am more serious and sober than I ever have been. And also more consistent, reliable and thorough in planning (Te).

Would you be able to explain this behaviour/preference, in terms of an ENFP's functions, please? If you need more information, happy to provide.

Two comments:

1. The longer people live and the more they experience, the more they have the chance/need to develop less preferred functions. Younger people who have had "to grow up quickly" due to circumstances like crisis, hardship, etc. often do this sooner. For others it takes a bit longer. ENFPs have tertiary Te, which is also encouraged in many job and other roles.

2. Type is reflective of internal cognitive processes, which cannot always be identified by externally observable behavior. Meaning: any type can act in any way, it is in examining why and how that we will see what their true type is. As I suggested in (1), people, say, whose jobs require planning, organization, attention to detail, and even solitary work may appear to others as I_TJ. Any one of us can appear as some other type in circumstances that encourage the behavior usually associated with that type - but actually possible from anyone.

 

[eastern_enfp]

The oddity of this coincidence.
I am seeing an ENFP woman with almost the same symptoms. Let's make a comparison.

Thank you for taking the time to annotate and reply point-by-point. Please see my thoughts below.

She has achievements in three different fields. She's passionate about all of them, and has many others she'd like to try. The key sentence is "would like to try". *laughs*

Errm... same here. Although I can't claim achievement in 3 different fields (#respect to her!), I can relate to the "would like to try" part.

I mean, literally, at any point I have about 15 tabs open on my PC browser and about 20 open on my phone browser! These are all things "I am interested in and want to get to sometime soon." And then, one day, just like that, my very overburdened phone shuts down on its own, taking with it all the open browsers. The thing is this: I simply move on! :O Frankly, this behaviour of first hoarding and hanging on to something for dear life and then letting it all go in a moment's notice, flummoxes me too!

Yep. She can be a great host, but she will need a lot of time to recharge. Either me-time, or time with someone who energizes her.

You articulated that better than I did. Aye aye.

She'd rather receive sympathy from the right people.

Correct. Again, your articulation of the state of mind is more accurate than mine was.

"Say something nice or shut up".
If someone hurts her when she's weak, they regret that when she's strong again.

*takes a deep breath* Ohh boy! This one is a thread all its own.

But in brief, I can trust and take a chance on a person and be betrayed and trust again and take a chance again and be betrayed and so on and so forth about, say, 20 times, before I just completely change. The transition of responses goes from initially being very benevolent about it to being very teacher-like in wanting to 'fix bad behaviour' to being irritable and angry to snapping impatiently at each new transgression to becoming dejected (all this while, resenting is building up), to finally becoming very numb. And then, I completely clinically let that person go. The End.

As much as I give chances initially several several times, once I've become numb (and it takes me a long time getting there), there is simply no coming back. I've had a 'chemical change' - irreversible.

Not machines. She reads books to drop them and learns a little bit of every language.

Fascinating! Polyglot? Or dabbler, jedi-in-training linguist?

She despises frivolous partying and the ostentatious life for vanity points.

To mimic your style (I like this usage! ), "I'd shake hands with her on that."

She loves the act of gifts' giving and charity work in the hospitals which is probably part of her quality time when it's done with someone she appreciates.

Oh... she does charitable work at hospitals? Noble soul. Bless her heart. I have no stomach for seeing illness and depravity - I relate too deeply to them and get too heartbroken to be helpful. In my part of the world, illiteracy is a real problem; I do my part to bring light into the world of one or two people - very limited impact. But your gf is doing good stuff. Strong!

Yeah. Long walks that start from a single subject, she then asks a question seemingly unrelated to the topic which we ponder, then I answer, then she opens a parenthesis, then she opens another parenthesis inside that fucking parenthesis and I have to close that parenthesis to get to the previous parenthesis, and she keeps asking these questions and summoning ideas that she doesn't know where they're coming from, as they are appearing from nowhere like tree leaves scattered on the ground, and what I do is point out the tree, where every of those leaves belong, and it's fucking orgasmic.

Delightful! And you put it eloquently too. Not to mention that you have understood her - and your mutual dynamic - so well that you are able to explain it so simply... it's lovely. P.s. clearly, you are adept at navigating recursion! It is an ENFP's vortex loop. Go in deep into the tree of possibilities and then not know how to backtrack and get back to where they started from. Very very frustrating for other types, but INTJs certainly can handle it, from my experience. Their working memory can remarkably hold the complete path that the ENFP took (in a very verbose way too!).

One small thing: so long as these conversations are not emotionally overwhelming, the INTJ provides a nice track-back recursive path back home. It is very calming for the ENFP, and possibly quite amusing to the INTJ.

She has a strong Fi system. She believes in Freedom, but believes in its limits too. She has many opinionated views about many subjects. If someone dares challenging her beliefs, well, I just get some pop corn.

That's Fi alright. I have a question. I find myself being able to come up with lawyerly arguments placed in logically incisive manner (even if I do say so! ) when threatened over my Fi ethical frameworks. My Ti-leading partner argues differently, though. He reaches out to a ream of data and evidence, and pointing out inconsistencies between observation and belief. But my arguments are more 'debate-like', laying out reasoning (not just data) that 'connects' ideas in logical ways, inevitably leading to my assertion.

Do you see this with your ENFP too?

She's also dependable under a leadership she trusts, otherwise, if she doesn't trust you, she will ask you baffling questions you cannot possibly answer.

Gosh! I am blown away. "Dependable under leadership she trusts" is bang on! I've used these same words repeatedly to people.

And you touch a raw nerve in observing that when the ENFP doesn't trust or understand the leadership, they feel very disoriented, frustrated and often, offended (because, possibly, the leadership is violating their Fi values). They can't pretend then to not care. And man, is that a problem!

She's strong and mature, but she's not grim. She's always a spoiled and annoying brat as far as I'm concerned since she feels safe and secure enough to let her playful side emerge and use words like "smoochies", wtf.

LoL! I feel for you! Totally can see the grimace there. And the cringing when being attacked suddenly by effusive shows of affection... but perhaps giving in anyway, at least some of the times, because, what the heck!

-----------

Many of these are undoubtedly a sign of maturity.

Appreciate your saying that. It took a while getting to this centred, sorted place. It isn't our most natural existence, but a place many young ENFPs eventually need to get to, in order to keep their lives in order.

Again, thank you for responding. It always feels good to know that one isn't alone in her weirdness!

 

[eastern_enfp]

I'm left scratching my head as to why you think some of these are INTJ specific.

hmm, now that you ask me that way, I don't know why it feels like INTJ. May be not exclusively INTJ, but also like INTJs?

 

[eastern_enfp]

Thank you for the first line that integrates my functions nicely to explain what is going on here.

And I relate to the journey you have taken, as described by you. The only other thing I can add is that being pushed to high stress levels does bring out a shadow Si which is very unpretty. But the experience is good, because you come out of it valuing the importance of the other three.

 

[eastern_enfp]

[MENTION=9811]Coriolis[/MENTION] :

(For some reason, I am not able to quote, so bear with me while I reply in free-form rather than annotate.)

In the same order as your bullet points:
1. Indeed. Channeling and properly utilizing Te leads to some of the most satisfying achievements that the ENFP will ever have. Equally, all the potential that goes wasted is due to the lack of proper Te application. Therefore prolonged and deep stress, which tends to turn off Te, does a lot of damage to the ENFP, debilitating them and making them almost useless and unproductive social creatures who are unable to implement even the smallest project!

2. I think I understand what you mean over all, even if I do have a few objections to the specific sentences you've used. But that's less relevant; I agree with your tenet.

 

[BlueScreen]

ENFPs mimic lots of different behavours. Psychology and perception are a playground. Like when I was younger I'd consciously let myself go one step from psychological disorders just out of curiosity, and to see how I'd get myself back. Also, worth noting the natural inclination for acting in ENFPs. So the question might be what would motivate an ENFP to consciously or subconsciously mimic an INTJ?

 

[LucieCat]

Well, I find that people often defy their type or at least our expectations of it. This happens more and more as we grow and mature. For instance, we learn to gain some degree of control over Ne and harness it a bit better so we can focus and dedicate ourselves instead of actions such as running off in ten different directions and generating new ideas to anyone who will listen (not that all young Ne-doms do this).

I believe I come across very similar to an INFJ at times. So I do not think it is impossible. The core of the person is essentially the same though even if the behavior is different. I could come across as an INFJ and/or a type 9 to some people. But when I look at my friend who is an INFJ 9, there's a fundamental different in what is going on and how we are proscesding and evaluating information.

I've encountered a lot of different types who have had moments that made me think "Maybe they are another type." For instance, I sometimes find that ISFJs and INFJs look like Fi dominant types instead of Fe auxiliary types. I have an ISFJ friend who seems quite similar to an INFP at times (though you can tell she is not when you think about it and pay attention to the underlying thought process she could be using). I also have an ESFJ friend that has seemed ESTJish at times. But a closer look at her personality reveals that she is FeSi instead of TeSi.

Emmeagram may also play into this. If the ENFP is of an Enneagram that is more commonly found in INTJs, then they might appear to be more like INTJ.

 

[BlueScreen]

I think environment plays a big part too. I'm ENFP 7w6 and if you put me in my comfort zone that is clear as anything. But in many environments it shows less. For example, at work many might mistake me for a thinking type because I like technical discussions or a far more solemn enneagram because I've been sick and concentrating can be a challenge (leaving less time/will for silliness).

Ive always worked in technical areas too. I grew up with strong technical influences and my interests in physics and maths were strong from very young. This has meant I spend a lot of time in environments where I don't quite appear my type and I enjoy it. I've had a few people on here try to explain my technical interests and pursuits by going to Tx functions, but there's more than one way to do things (I don't advocate skinning cats in this age).

I think people start with their cognitive strengths and adapt them to what is needed. Like I'll never be a logical machine who hits the precise answer in seconds with "everything" accounted for like my INTP father, but I'll make up for that by seeing the broader context, the uncertainties in the system and what is important to influence the system. Where he can quickly say something is impossible based on what he knows, I can see that we never know enough to be that certain. And I'm not talking being pedantic about the possible oversights in scientific theories, rather there are so many influences in real systems that there is often a left field solution to the seemingly impossible that achieves the desired outcome.

In the sense of MBTI, I don't see this as in any way becoming a thinking type or having strong thinking functions either (as the picture below shows, I'm not even a little borderline T). It's more because intuition helps out a lot in perceiving the system and my cognitive functions are geared toward self doubt and seeking the essence and consequences of things. Also there is the benefit of following my own thoughts, and I think that is true for many ENFPs. You don't just try to understand the system, you try to understand yourself understanding the system, and seeing the holes in your own perception can be a powerful thing.

 

[BlueScreen]

Just another thought, playing devils advocate to the extreme...

How do we know that we aren't INTJs? A mature ENFP and INTJ can both have good use of Fi and Te as their judging functions, so the distinction is mainly Ne vs Ni. I've always thought I've understood this distinction from my reading on the net, but we rely on matching that reading to people in the real world. I believe that I recognise some types in the real world, but INTJ is not one that I have a lot of experience with, so how do I really know? What if what I see in my head is Ni not Ne? All the playing in dreams and imagination, perceiving of ultimate effects of actions, seeing technical systems so clearly that I almost feel part of them, the dismissal of other's input unless I test it and agree, the total calmness in exams, etc. Where is the Ne/Ni line really drawn? What if the procrastination comes from being in situations where I disagree but don't want to upturn things, rather than being a P type?

I started thinking about this when I looked at Prof Brian Cox's type. Many think he's an NFP, but some argued INTJ which I thought was interesting. I'd say he out-excites and feelings what I'm like on most days. Strangely, I also give science explanations at social gatherings and get excited about physics, lol. So if he were an INTJ, do I not know my types well enough yet and actually have to consider it as an option? Or are there far more NFs among well known scientists than people on MBTI forums usually consider there to be? Is people trying to type them as NTs where my confusion is coming from?

 

[Coriolis]

I think people start with their cognitive strengths and adapt them to what is needed. Like I'll never be a logical machine who hits the precise answer in seconds with "everything" accounted for like my INTP father, but I'll make up for that by seeing the broader context, the uncertainties in the system and what is important to influence the system. Where he can quickly say something is impossible based on what he knows, I can see that we never know enough to be that certain. And I'm not talking being pedantic about the possible oversights in scientific theories, rather there are so many influences in real systems that there is often a left field solution to the seemingly impossible that achieves the desired outcome.

In the sense of MBTI, I don't see this as in any way becoming a thinking type or having strong thinking functions either (as the picture below shows, I'm not even a little borderline T). It's more because intuition helps out a lot in perceiving the system and my cognitive functions are geared toward self doubt and seeking the essence and consequences of things. Also there is the benefit of following my own thoughts, and I think that is true for many ENFPs. You don't just try to understand the system, you try to understand yourself understanding the system, and seeing the holes in your own perception can be a powerful thing.

Your post raises a valid point, namely that people can accomplish the same end using different combinations of functions, relying usually on those they prefer. This is why it can be difficult if not impossible to assign type based strictly on observable behavior.

I started thinking about this when I looked at Prof Brian Cox's type. Many think he's an NFP, but some argued INTJ which I thought was interesting. I'd say he out-excites and feelings what I'm like on most days. Strangely, I also give science explanations at social gatherings and get excited about physics, lol. So if he were an INTJ, do I not know my types well enough yet and actually have to consider it as an option? Or are there far more NFs among well known scientists than people on MBTI forums usually consider there to be? Is people trying to type them as NTs where my confusion is coming from?

I think it highly unlikely that most of the ENFPs hereabouts are really INTJs, but I do consider it quite probable that more scientists are NFs than we credit.