Depression and causation

[JivinJeffJones]

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[targobelle]

For me (ISTJ) it's enough to have a great body, awesome sex life, a few close friends, a stable high-paying job, a house of my own, and a fat bank account. Life really ain't that complicated. My goals are clear, and there's not much to worry about. It's kinda hard to make me depressed since I know where I am going.

Maybe you are my opposite so you think otherwise. Your needs are probably quite different from mine.

well I don't have a great body, but my sex life is not lacking at all... it's actually quite great I have a few close friends and a good giggle buddy, my husband has a stable well paying job and works very hard for us. We 'own' a house, the bank account is alright.... yet depression is there.... damn Fi overwhelming my Ne *sigh*

 

[ptgatsby]

For me (ISTJ) it's enough to have a great body, awesome sex life, a few close friends, a stable high-paying job, a house of my own, and a fat bank account. Life really ain't that complicated. My goals are clear, and there's not much to worry about. It's kinda hard to make me depressed since I know where I am going.

Maybe you are my opposite so you think otherwise. Your needs are probably quite different from mine.

Heh, I can speak from the above and say that it isn't enough. Needs do differ greatly... as a strong NP, I can tell you that one of the major factors in my life is needing something new. I don't care what it is, but I need new, I need interesting... I need cool.

I'll jump from cooking to dancing, from video games to drawing, from reading to movies... but the moment I stop, I can fall into depression pretty fast.

What you find comfortable... I find stressful. The concept of clear goals and everything? That's not natural to me. I have very strong goals, but I had to hand them over to my GF to keep them in check... otherwise I get a bit flighty. I'm also well ahead of achieving them, but all that happens is that I stack even more goals on top of it... push farther, refine further... I can't sit still and just achieve anything, I have to be active on working on it. But as above, I get bored working on the same thing... hence flighty!

(All of the above is assuming a non-chemical, non-tragic event which supercedes type and the like.)

 

[SolitaryWalker]

well I don't have a great body, but my sex life is not lacking at all... it's actually quite great I have a few close friends and a good giggle buddy, my husband has a stable well paying job and works very hard for us. We 'own' a house, the bank account is alright.... yet depression is there.... damn Fi overwhelming my Ne *sigh*

I dont think that depression has anything to do with Fi...

more along the lines of ENFP not finding the right balance in life... the NF demanding the sense of meaning and intrinsic purpose in life... yet because the Ne is so much stronger than Fi..the Fi just cant yield it to you..whereas Fi.. as an introverted and person centered faculty..actually does the best job of all functions to help you find meaning in life... but for an NF... not being in close enough of an affinity with it can be a serious problem..will be lots of inner demons to tame..

Generally..satisfying physical needs being so high up ( as many of those that KMCE listed)... is a property of being a Sensor... and he is a primary S... your S is last (inferior)..so having those needs met for you would yield much less satisfaction than for someone who had S higher up the function order..

 

[targobelle]

I suppose what I was meaning is that my Fi isn't fulfilled in my life. I feel (go figure) that it's empty and not noticed. Also I guess I feel that it's not accepted either, that it's more or less mocked. Everything in my life seems to boil down to well if you weren't so emotional you could get over it.... *sigh*

 

[SolitaryWalker]

I suppose what I was meaning is that my Fi isn't fulfilled in my life. I feel (go figure) that it's empty and not noticed. Also I guess I feel that it's not accepted either, that it's more or less mocked. Everything in my life seems to boil down to well if you weren't so emotional you could get over it.... *sigh*

Oh no.. quite the opposite is true... the better you get with the Fi the more meaning there will be in your life..

 

[targobelle]

Oh no.. quite the opposite is true... the better you get with the Fi the more meaning there will be in your life..

oh I see

yet I don't feel like it's respected so I stifle it hhhmmm

 

[SolitaryWalker]

oh I see

yet I don't feel like it's respected so I stifle it hhhmmm

It doesnt matter if its not respected by others... it only matters that its respected by you because its so fundamental to who you are and what you will be... just stick to it.. as an NF you will render yourself a great service by trying to focus on your own inner task and just live your own life as opposed to be influenced so much by what others want...

This is why life for an NF can be quite a challenge...they long for a coherent inner identity and internally focused vision to live out..yet they cant help but cater to the needs of others..and whats more... they dont find it enough to just take care of their own quest for meaning in life which is unfathomably hard as it is.. they also take it their responsibility to help others find meaning in their lives...and in effect end up carrying many burdens that were undeserved...

And here is seemingly an unrelated passage to what you may be going through..but I think this is an excellent allegory for the picture that we've unwittingly painted in this thread...no more needs to be said as everything that needed to be will be in the paragraph below..

''Somewhere in the 1600s a man who could not see, sat down to write what he thought would be the greatest poem in human history. He said it would include, in his words, ''things yet unattempted in prose or rhyme.'' It is the view of the modern world that he achieved just that. His poem, the paradise Lost, is considered the greatest epic in human history. Few poems take on such an enormous theme as Paradise Lost, a theme that is not less than the origin of evil in itself. The man who took on this ambitious challenge, and created a classic in the process, is a man who led a life of immense struggle, loss and sacrifice. In a sense, John Milton's life was a search for paradise-a life in which the poet became the poem.''

 

[Littlelostnf]

Thanks for the interesting observations thru far. Maverick I'm looking up those links and For...Jennifer I think that you and my INTP friend are asking similar questions about causes. In continuing the conversation with the INTP he asked another questions. The following is part of another im conversation:

him (10:35:53 PM): my point is that regardless of the cause, depression has a physical effect on the body
me(10:36:35 PM): ok...so depressions physical effect makes for deeper depression...
him (10:37:16 PM): right but for that matter.. how do we know the depression wasnt caused by a previous deficiency in the physical body
me(10:38:11 PM): hmmmm..well if I wanted to go there I'd say. Depression is caused by our lack of perfection...getting worse because we're further away from it. But in the end wouldn't that be chemical?
me (10:38:48 PM): and in advance would you mind if I used what you just said...last two im's.
him (10:39:08 PM): sure
him (10:40:26 PM): saying its chemical can be misleading.. its still a physical process
me (10:40:29 PM): so moving away from perfection...physical deficiency is cause of depression (and other mental illnesses) thus bring body to ultimate health state (relatively) and we are cured?
me (10:40:41 PM): ok i get that.
him(10:42:06 PM): idk
him (10:43:03 PM): but like she said.. when she eats better and exercises she feels better mentally
me (10:43:22 PM): I think that can be said for anyone...even those not experiencing depression.
him (10:43:31 PM): yea thats how it works
me(10:43:38 PM): thank you.
him(10:43:58 PM): well most people dont seem to make that connection
me(10:44:51 PM): ah..most people. anyway...I think that while it's true that eating better and exercise is going to help. It's one little piece in a huge puzzle.
me (10:45:23 PM): there is so much more to depression and so many forms it takes. I suppose it's easy to say it's multi causal..cause it is
me (10:45:37 PM): and just like any thing you do
me (10:45:56 PM): eating, exercise....you can't just
him (10:46:06 PM): im really asking this.. how many people are born depressed?
me (10:46:07 PM): do one thing and neglect the other and expect it to be all good.
me (10:46:39 PM): That's something good to research I don't know. I do know there are more subdued babies...for whatever reason. Could that be type (so early..doubt it)

Anyway we were asking many questions...is depression routed in a physical cause, are people born depressed, can depression be linked to type or use of certain cog processes. I didn't want to put in the entire im but he asked these question also:
him (11:10:08 PM): i wonder how many people got depressed before the mid 1800s
(these are not in order some of the im is taken out..focusing on the questions. Started discussing rise of the middle class and then this was asked)
him (11:17:13 PM): yea and were the middle class depressed before the industrial revolution and processed foods
me (11:17:42 PM): ah it all comes back to...good beginning of a thesis....
me (11:17:59 PM): go for it and let me submit it. :\
him (11:18:16 PM): i really think theres something there
him (11:19:57 PM): assuming they are above the poverty line.. do you think the working poor have as many stresses as the middle class?
him(11:21:24 PM): the middle class has many stresses.. its harder to maintain a lifestyle than it is to merely survive
him (11:21:34 PM): then theres all the social stresses

I'm sorry I'm being so greedy for your thoughts but...they've been interesting so far...more please.

 

[Littlelostnf]

I suspect that depression is a combination of several factors one of which is biological predisposition. One's circumstances and experiences determine whether depression is triggered or not.

*Warning: anecdotal crap*​

For myself, I know I have a predisposition but since my two former biggest stressors (poverty and my mother) have been removed, my struggle with depression has been greatly reduced. Lack of stressors alone would not be enough, but I feel spiritually connected to God and emotionally connected to my husband and children and that fills up my purpose void pretty well. I still get some SAD going on, but nothing like I used to get.

Cafe...I'm asking this question in relation to something I discussed last night with the INTP in the im in the op. You stated that now that your stressors (mom and money) have been removed your depression has been greatly reduced...have you experienced any stresses from trying to maintain the financial position you've achieved or depression from fear of going back to that bad financial situation?

 

[sundowning]

I wonder if people would suffer from depression if they do exercise regularly, have great sex, and have a few Close Friends/Confidants?

If they won't, then isn't the cause of depression the lack of sex, exercise, and friends?

I think a lot of (types of) depression can indeed be distracted away by these things.

A core still remains, though, of those who suffer despite everything else being right.

 

[SolitaryWalker]

I wonder if people would suffer from depression if they do exercise regularly, have great sex, and have a few Close Friends/Confidants?

If they won't, then isn't the cause of depression the lack of sex, exercise, and friends?

You're thinking about this only from the S perspective..many Ns have far greater challenges in life than just taking care of their physical needs..and lack of acceptance by others (allusion to your comment for the need to have close friends in order to avoid depression)...

Think about this...psychological pains are always sharper than physical... this is why people who commit suicide have no problem physically hurting themselves just to put an end to the mental pain...

 

[KMCE]

For me (ISTJ) it's enough to have a great body, awesome sex life, a few close friends, a stable high-paying job, a house of my own, and a fat bank account. Life really ain't that complicated. My goals are clear, and there's not much to worry about. It's kinda hard to make me depressed since I know where I am going.

Maybe you are my opposite so you think otherwise. Your needs are probably quite different from mine.

well I don't have a great body, but my sex life is not lacking at all... it's actually quite great I have a few close friends and a good giggle buddy, my husband has a stable well paying job and works very hard for us. We 'own' a house, the bank account is alright.... yet depression is there.... damn Fi overwhelming my Ne *sigh*

(Why don't the multi-quote button work!?)

Targo,

Well I ain't no psychologist, and the world is very lucky that I didn't get into the psychology profession (I don't like getting dead patients.. they stink), but I sort of see something that seems 'problematic' in your message. I've highlighted it. You probably don't want to talk about it further, but,

You have identified Fi as the cause of your depression. But "Fi" is what makes an ENFP ENFP (It's the auxiliary function of ENFP after all). So, if you identify with the profile of ENFP, you are essentially saying that, as long as you are ENFP, you would suffer from depression. And unless you switch to another type, depression will stay with you forever.

I think it's not good. You have found a reason to justify your depression, and that very reason is something that would ‘stick’. Something that won’t go away. And there’s no helping it. So what gives?

Think about it, you really like it staying with you?

I suppose what I was meaning is that my Fi isn't fulfilled in my life. I feel (go figure) that it's empty and not noticed. Also I guess I feel that it's not accepted either, that it's more or less mocked. Everything in my life seems to boil down to well if you weren't so emotional you could get over it.... *sigh*

(I just read the ENFP profile)

I'll make a wild guess: the above sounds like your kindness to others are not reciprocated, and you need the reciprocation to be happy. And no one seems to appreciate your good characters, and they mock you because you are who you are: ‘Too’ kind, ‘too’ emotional, ‘too’ warm to others, feeling ‘too’ much, not 'tough' enough, and somewhat easily manipulated. Your outside character is a bit wild and crazy, but inside there's a gentler you that needs to be noticed by others and appreciated by others, despite what you have shown to people outwardly.

The thing about ENFP seems to be that they need other people's appreciation and encouragement to live a happy and fulfilled life (ENFP is the opposite of my type, so I can sort of understand, in a rather bizarre way).

I've no good solution to your depression problem... but if you think Fi is the problem of your depression, the solutions are, I suppose, to find people who would appreciate you for who you are (The Fi thing), those who would reciprocate your kindness, those who would notice your "Fi" without you having to explain to them. If MBTI has any value in it (I doubt it)... then it would be ESFP, ISFP, INFP, and other ENFP. Don't get anywhere near a ISTJ by the way.

And if you are a ISTJ, I would probably just tell you to suck it up and get over it. I think it won’t work for you though.

 

[Totenkindly]

And if you are a ISTJ, I would probably just tell you to suck it up and get over it. I think it won’t work for you though.

lol, that was a nice post, KMCE... especially the ending. Not much to add to it right now, but you've had some very good insights here and elsewhere.

 

[SolitaryWalker]

(Why don't the multi-quote button work!?)

Targo,

Well I ain't no psychologist, and the world is very lucky that I didn't get into the psychology profession (I don't like getting dead patients.. they stink), but I sort of see something that seems 'problematic' in your message. I've highlighted it. You probably don't want to talk about it further, but,

You have identified Fi as the cause of your depression. But "Fi" is what makes an ENFP ENFP (It's the auxiliary function of ENFP after all). So, if you identify with the profile of ENFP, you are essentially saying that, as long as you are ENFP, you would suffer from depression. And unless you switch to another type, depression will stay with you forever.

I think it's not good. You have found a reason to justify your depression, and that very reason is something that would

 

[Lark]

You know, happiness is a chemical "imbalance" too.

Interesting.

 

[Maou]

I've been depressed for a very long time, and if things like exercise could cure it, then why was I depressed when I was fit as fuck, working full time, and had the freedom to do as I wanted? I didn't lack the positive outlook, or attitude. It just made me more functional, but the feeling has always persisted.

I think there is some weight to the whole "spiritual" health thing. Your relationship with the world, your sense of purpose, and belonging. Friends, family, love, sex etc... they can only provide some comfort. But for some, those who don't think in such a here and now perspective, the feeling of futility and nihilism is extremely strong, because they can see beyond those things. I myself, struggle with existentialism on a daily basis. I don't really feel that I can do anything, because I know my limits and I know just how hard it would be to accomplish anything. I have had to "shrink" my horizons just to enjoy what little of life that I can lead.

Not everyone is cut out to be a the next billionaire. In fact, the majority of people are going to end up just barely at poverty line for the rest of their lives. It's is how you deal with that fact, that really defines how happy you will be in your life. A relationship with "god", or other spirituality, does actually help in this. Giving purpose, when ultimately there is none. It is part of the reason I found myself accepting the philosophy of Buddhism and other natural world teachings.

 

[Mole]

Emotional Delusions

Clinical Depression is a psychosis that takes the lives of many of its victims.

Clinical Depression is life threatening in way feeling low, or depressed, or traumatised, or discriminated, is not.

A neurosis causes misery, but remains in touch with reality, while psychosis means out of touch with reality.

And Clinical Depression requires the help of a psychiatrist.

Schizophrenia is a thought disorder with delusions of thought, while Clinical Depression is an emotional disorder with emotional delusions.

It is of interest that those who are Clinically Depressed universally deny they are emotionally deluded. They believe their emotions reflect reality. But they are wrong, and are deluded.

 

[Lark]

Clinical Depression is a psychosis that takes the lives of many of its victims.

Clinical Depression is life threatening in way feeling low, or depressed, or traumatised, or discriminated, is not.

A neurosis causes misery, but remains in touch with reality, while psychosis means out of touch with reality.

And Clinical Depression requires the help of a psychiatrist.

Schizophrenia is a thought disorder with delusions of thought, while Clinical Depression is an emotional disorder with emotional delusions.

It is of interest that those who are Clinically Depressed universally deny they are emotionally deluded. They believe their emotions reflect reality. But they are wrong, and are deluded.

Mole there's a whole bunch of words in your post there which I suspect that, as usual, you dont wholly understand and dont even know you're misusing them or misapplying them.

I hope no one reading your posts makes the mistake of thinking you're an authority in anything other than simply being opinionated.

 

[Lark]

What causes depression is a really interesting question, along with how widespread is it, why it occurs at some times and places in the way it does.

Like, depending on how you define your terms depression can speak right to differences between psychiatry and psychology (even a role for sociology if you consider Durkheim and Marx), medical, social and systems theory models of mental health and illness.