Debate: Worthiness of Love and Depression

[1487610420]

I am so glad I started a profile here. You guys are saving me so much money on therapy and also helping me realize that my last relationship simply wasn't as good as I painted it to be in my mind.

wait until you get invoiced

 

[ThaumaturgicTheorist]

*screw it*

 

[Mole]

Ack, I wasn't going to post but I've been thinking along these lines for an hour so...

Perfection is necessary. Otherwise, one has no chance of ever being good enough for the most basic emotional safeties. You could say it comes down to entitlement. People like to throw around the sentiment that no one's entitled to anything - presumably, not their life, any kind of respect, safety, physical or psychological integrity, anything they "earn", their thoughts, their feelings, or anything.

Now, if people are good enough, they become entitled to things. Perfect people have fantastic lives because they're innately deserving of them - basically, good people are innately entitled; bad people aren't. If you're "not entitled" to something, you should not have it and will not have it. If you're not entitled to love, for example, it means that you're a bad person and no one will ever love you unless you're perfect, and everyone should treat you like shit until and unless you are. If you're not entitled to success, you're screwed, because there's no way you're perfect enough to be successful ("imposter syndrome" is a totally valid feeling. If anything, you should feel like a fraud when you have that success your worthless excuse of an existence innately doesn't deserve. Bad people aren't supposed to be successful). You can only "earn" things by being perfect. If there are flaws in something, in you, they can always be used against you.

It's also a problem considering how much of "perfection" is inborn. We all know some people are simply BETTER than others - thus, more deserving of love. I'd go so far as to say average people don't deserve love, only the exceptional do. Anyone who loves an average person is an idiot or has been badly fooled.

I like to read the advertisements because they teach us how to enjoy the products, and tell us it's because we deserve it.

 

[chubber]

[MENTION=31348]RareBird[/MENTION] I'm going to quote personalitypage.com about criticism:

"To love means to open ourselves to the negative as well as the positive - to grief, sorrow, and disappointment as well as to joy, fulfillment, and an intensity of consciousness we did not know was possible before." -- Rollo May

ENFP Weaknesses

Most ENFPs will exhibit the following weaknesses with regards to relationship issues:

• Tendency to be smothering
• Their enthusiasm may lead them to be unrealistic
• Uninterested in dealing with "mundane" matters such as cleaning, paying bills, etc.
• Hold onto bad relationships long after they've turned bad
• Extreme dislike of conflict
• Extreme dislike of criticism
• Don't pay attention to their own needs
• Constant quest for the perfect relationship may make them change relationships frequently
• May become bored easily
• Have difficulty scolding or punishing others

A problem area for ENFPs in relationships is their dislike of conflict and sensitivity to criticism. They are perfectionists who believe that any form of criticism is a stab at their character, which is very difficult for them to take. Conflict situations are sources of extreme stress to the ENFP. They have a tendency to brush issues under the rug rather than confront them head-on, if there is likely to be a conflict. They are also prone to "give in" easily in conflict situations, just to end the conflict. They might agree to something which goes against their values just to end the uncomfortable situation. In such cases, the problem is extended and will return at a later time. The ENFP needs to realize that conflict situations are not the end of the world. They are entirely normal, and can be quite helpful for the growth of a relationship. They also need to work on taking criticism for what it is, rather than blowing up any negative comment into an indictment against their entire character.

The ENFP may exhibit an inconsistency in their roles with their children. At one moment, they might be their child's best friend, laughing and whooping it up, and in the next moment they may appear the stern authoritarian. This inconsistency seems to be a result of a conflict between the ENFP's genuine desire to relate to their children on the children's level, and their compulsion to follow their deeply-felt value system. In other words, the ENFP wants to be their child's friend, but if a value is violated, they will revert to the parental role to make sure their children understand the violation. This inconsistency may be confusing and frustrating for the children.

INTJ Weaknesses

• Not naturally in tune with others feelings; may be insensitive at times
• May tend to respond to conflict with logic and reason, rather than the desired emotional support
• Not naturally good at expressing feelings and affections
• Tendency to believe that they're always right
• Tendency to be unwilling or unable to accept blame
• Their constant quest to improve everything may be taxing on relationships
• Tend to hold back part of themselves

INTJs are not naturally in tune with their own feelings, or with what other people are feeling. They also have a tendency to believe that they are always right. While their self-confidence and esteem is attractive, their lack of sensitivity to others can be a problem if it causes them to inadvertantly hurt their partner's feelings. If this is a problem for an INTJ, they should remember to sometimes let their mate be the one who is right, and to try to be aware of the emotional effect that your words have upon them. In conflict situations, INTJs need to remember to be supportive to their mate's emotional needs, rather than treating the conflict as if it is an interesting idea to analyze.

The INTJ is not naturally likely to be an overly supportive or loving parental figure. Since their own need for expressions of love and affirmation is relatively low, they may have difficulty seeing that need in their children who have Feeling preferences. If they do see this sensitivity, they may not recognize or value the importance of feeding it. In such situations, there will be a distance between the INTJ and the child. This is a problem area for the INTJ, who should consciously remember to be aware of others' emotional needs.

 

[Cellmold]

Well from what I've witnessed love between a couple tends to form based on each person's image of the other as the emotions are at their peak.

Then as it fades they begin to see more readily the fallibility of each other that was never hidden to begin with, but which they ignored. Now they have a choice: Accept the reality of an imperfect and entirely conditional love (with the all too human flaws that entails) or become obsessed with the hoax that they played on themselves, a terrible hoax that will drive them to destruction as they desperately attempt to recreate an image that was never true to begin with.

With the individual the acceptance follows the same path, and if anything it isn't self-love but self-awareness and it's about moving past a naive period into the world of the relative and contextual.

Then things start to get interesting & you can work on your own sense of worth.

Although I say this only as an outside body of observation who has himself never experienced love and isn't sure he is capable.

 

[Peter Deadpan]

[MENTION=20044]chubber[/MENTION]

Sorry... I think I'm missing your point with this one. Why are we focusing on these 2 types???

 

[ceecee]

I am so glad I started a profile here. You guys are saving me so much money on therapy and also helping me realize that my last relationship simply wasn't as good as I painted it to be in my mind.

This place is seriously not a substitute for therapy, no matter what you think.

 

[Peter Deadpan]

This place is seriously not a substitute for therapy, no matter what you think.

That's not what I was implying. Please read most of my comments in the dryest tone possible. Sarcasm doesn't translate well via strangers on the internet. (but I guess I did slap that one right between two serious comments)

I've been to therapy and will go again next year after I have health insurance. But having people to talk to, anyone, is really helping me to transition through this period of change and not get too caught up in Ni-Ti loops. Gets me out of my head.

 

[Mole]

This place is seriously not a substitute for therapy, no matter what you think.

Yes, this is worth emphasising. We don't provide therapy but we do provide conversation across the globe in real time.

Probably the important things to keep in mind are that we are engaging in a global conversation, and no doubt we may have the feeling we are not in Kansas anymore, and indeed some of us even live in Oz, hard though it is to believe We're Not in Kansas Anymore - The Wizard of Oz (2/8) Movie CLIP (1939) HD - YouTube

The next thing is that we don't practise active listening, so it is very easy to feel no one is listening to us.

The third thing is that the medium lends itself to emotional engagement across the globe in real time, so those with a high emotional IQ are at a premium.

 

[Lark]

That's not what I was implying. Please read most of my comments in the dryest tone possible. Sarcasm doesn't translate well via strangers on the internet. (but I guess I did slap that one right between two serious comments)

I've been to therapy and will go again next year after I have health insurance. But having people to talk to, anyone, is really helping me to transition through this period of change and not get too caught up in Ni-Ti loops. Gets me out of my head.

It is no substitute for therapy, that's for sure, especially if the therapy in question is a specialist variety, although perhaps it is therapeutic in the sense of being a form of relating or relatedness which matters to health and happiness.

Although, the same as there's therapy and therapy, great variance in quality, there's relatedness and relatedness too, I've gone through periods in which I've relied more on forums as an expressive outlet than was wise.

For a lot of people its a slightly higher tech substitute for bathroom wall graffiti.

 

[Peter Deadpan]

Okay... well moving on from discussing my potential need for therapy... there is nothing pathological about me. I'm not in some dire need for mental help. I'm merely a person with some anxiety and depression following several years of unusually high stress and many major life changes. Talking to others about this stuff brings me a little clarity because I process these things better through conversation.

I'm also not a child, nor am I naive, and I sorta feel like some of you are beginning to talk to me that way... maybe we collectively need a reminder that none of us actually know each other in person. It's easy to get caught up in giving advice to strangers over the Internet.

Can we get back to the philosophical debate at hand please? If I want advice or help, I'll ask directly.

note: not mad, just communicating directly.

 

[highlander]

[MENTION=31348]RareBird[/MENTION] I'm going to quote personalitypage.com about criticism:

[MENTION=20044]chubber[/MENTION]

Sorry... I think I'm missing your point with this one. Why are we focusing on these 2 types???

I'm curious about that too chubber. Don't understand your post.

 

[Peter Deadpan]

I'm curious about that too chubber. Don't understand your post.

[MENTION=20044]chubber[/MENTION] thinks that I am not an INFJ.

I'm not a psychologist. I'm just a normal person who has repeatedly tested as INFJ over several years. I relate to it to a point where I can get a little protective of the title. I have been focusing on the functions to see if that is indeed where I fall. Some tests show that some of my functions are pretty close, meaning maybe I use them both. If anything, I have bordered on INFP, but that doesn't really make sense because the functions are completely different.

I am most definitely NOT an extrovert. To me, it is laughable to even hear this from someone else. Have you not noticed how active I have been here since I signed up? It's because when I'm not working, I'm literally always home. On the Internet. Pretending to have a social life by talking to people I don't know.

Am I outspoken and assertive for an INFJ? Maybe. I certainly feel like it sometimes. But other times, not so much. It depends on how well I know someone. I don't know any of you so I don't have a problem being straightforward.

What I can tell you is that all of the test results I have listed are 100% honest. Interpret them as you will.

 

[Peter Deadpan]

[MENTION=31348]RareBird[/MENTION] I'm going to quote personalitypage.com about criticism:

I will respond to the emboldened bits:

While criticism doesn't necessarily make me feel good, I consider myself a very open-minded and reasonable person. I prefer my partners to be open and honest with me with their concerns. A problem I run into more often is that men aren't really that great at communicating these things, that is until it's too late and they boil over.

Sometimes I don't know what my needs are. When I think about, ultimately, I just want a safe place and a partner who respects me and finds me interesting enough to want to learn more about me. I also like words of affirmation and touch. I am pretty low-maintenance.

I am in-tune with others feelings, but under stress (the last 3 years of my life), I can get too preoccupied with my own suffering. If I'm moody, I might be a bit more selfish and want to do what I want to do. But, if this is pointed out to me, I snap out of it. I like to make my partner feel loved and appreciated, even if it's a skill I'm still learning.

Logic and reason do not overpower my desire for emotional stability and a safe and loving environment. That one had to be a joke, right?

I'm not sure what you're basing this off of. If it's something you'd like to talk about with me, I propose that you either message me or we start a new thread because this is quite the tangent from the original post.

 

[Peter Deadpan]

Actually, I'm just gonna hash this out real quick so we can move on.
[MENTION=20044]chubber[/MENTION] - Here is a very accurate, albeit maybe a little embarrassing, list of faults that I can relate to very much, and I think you'll be able to see these traits in me too:

From PersonalityPage.com...

Most of the weaker characteristics that are found in INFJs are due to their dominant function (Introverted iNtuition) overtaking their personality to the point that the other forces in their personality exist merely to serve the purposes of Introverted iNtuition. In such cases, an INFJ may show some or all of the following weaknesses in varying degrees:

May be unaware (and sometimes uncaring) of how they come across to others
May quickly dismiss input from others without really considering it
May apply their judgment more often towards others, rather than towards themselves
With their ability to see an issue from many sides, they may always find others at fault for any problems in their lives
May have unrealistic and/or unreasonable expectations of others
May be intolerant of weaknesses in others
May believe that they're always right
May be obsessive and passionate about details that may be unimportant to the big picture
May be cuttingly derisive and sarcastic towards others
May have an intense and quick temper
May be tense, wound up, have high blood pressure and find it difficult to relax
May hold grudges, and have difficulty forgiving people
May be wishy-washy and unsure how to act in situations that require quick decision making
May have difficulty communicating their thoughts and feelings to others
May see so many tangents everywhere that they can't stay focused on the bottom line or the big picture

For real, I'm done talking about this here. Start an entirely new thread if you want, but let's get back to DEPRESSION AND LOVE.

 

[Mole]

From PersonalityPage.com...

Most of the weaker characteristics that are found in INFJs are due to their dominant function (Introverted iNtuition) overtaking their personality to the point that the other forces in their personality exist merely to serve the purposes of Introverted iNtuition. In such cases, an INFJ may show some or all of the following weaknesses in varying degrees:

May be unaware (and sometimes uncaring) of how they come across to others
May quickly dismiss input from others without really considering it
May apply their judgment more often towards others, rather than towards themselves
With their ability to see an issue from many sides, they may always find others at fault for any problems in their lives
May have unrealistic and/or unreasonable expectations of others
May be intolerant of weaknesses in others
May believe that they're always right
May be obsessive and passionate about details that may be unimportant to the big picture
May be cuttingly derisive and sarcastic towards others
May have an intense and quick temper
May be tense, wound up, have high blood pressure and find it difficult to relax
May hold grudges, and have difficulty forgiving people
May be wishy-washy and unsure how to act in situations that require quick decision making
May have difficulty communicating their thoughts and feelings to others
May see so many tangents everywhere that they can't stay focused on the bottom line or the big picture.

It is probably important to realise there is no evidence for these suppositions. In exactly the same way there is no evidence for the suppositions of astrology.

Yet they are trotted out with supreme self confidence as though they were true.

And the purpose of mbti and astrology is to keep repeating the jargon with great confidence to enchant us. The jargon of mbti and astrology is in fact a chant, that puts our critical mind to sleep. and awakes our imaginative mind that is susceptible to suggestion.

 

[Peter Deadpan]

It is probably important to realise there is no evidence for these suppositions. In exactly the same way there is no evidence for the suppositions of astrology.

Yet they are trotted out with supreme self confidence as though they were true.

And the purpose of mbti and astrology is to keep repeating the jargon with great confidence to enchant us. The jargon of mbti and astrology is in fact a chant, that puts our critical mind to sleep. and awakes our imaginative mind that is susceptible to suggestion.

I fail to see the relevance of this if one finds it personally relatable.

That's like saying we should all equally relate to all astrological/MBTI descriptions because there is no accuracy in them. The astrology thing... I can understand your criticism of that (although I am very much like a typical Scorpio, however most Scorpio traits are similar to INFJ traits). MBTI was at least developed through research. I personally think that a lot of the shortcomings of MBTI could be a result of analyzing people who don't have a strong sense of self. Self-awareness is more important than anything else. If you're not very self-aware, you could test one way at age 20 and a completely different way at age 40. I have always tested as INFJ and as a self-aware individual, I have decided that much of the characteristics/habits described above fit me. If it doesn't fit me, I analyze it until I understand why and I throw it out. That's the beauty of individuality.

Why am I even talking about this again? Is this thread every going to get back to its original intention?

 

[Mole]

MBTI was at least developed through research.

Unfortunately this is an egregious lie.

In fact mbti was plagiarised from the book Psychological Types by Carl Jung. It was plagiarised by Mrs Briggs and her daughter Mrs Myers, neither of whom had the slightest qualification in psychometrics, and who certainly did no research in creating mbti.

And Carl Jung himself writes that his book Psychological Types is based on no empirical evidence. And was not based on any research whatsoever.

What is interesting is the psychological reason for perpetuating this lie, and also the psychological reason for joining together with others to perpetuate the same lie.

 

[Peter Deadpan]

Unfortunately this is an egregious lie.

In fact mbti was plagiarised from the book Psychological Types by Carl Jung. It was plagiarised by Mrs Briggs and her daughter Mrs Myers, neither of whom had the slightest qualification in psychometrics, and who certainly did no research in creating mbti.

And Carl Jung himself writes that his book Psychological Types is based on no empirical evidence. And was not based on any research whatsoever.

What is interesting is the psychological reason for perpetuating this lie, and also the psychological reason for joining together with other to perpetuate the same lie.

Why are you here?

Yes, there was a disconnect between Jung and Meyers/Briggs in the development of MBTI. I am aware of that.

Jung, although the subject of some criticism (who isn't subject to criticism?), was a very insightful and well-respected psychiatrist. If you want to argue the scientific validity of MBTI, doing so on an MBTI thread posted by an INFJ about ****DEPRESSION AND WORTHINESS OF LOVE**** is the least logical place to do so unless stirring the pot is your motive. You *know* that intuition is how I process information, yet here you are trying to convince me that I should suddenly not invest any interest in it because it's lacking in a factual concrete nature.

Okay.

 

[entropie]

Love is a pretty complicated thing. Most people on this World are insane and most woman doubly so. The latter one doesnt even no anything else but to fulfill there love, otherwise they wont ever feel complete.

Love and the heart is the best analogy, cause it is ur heart. You can love or you can hate, it is your decision. To love with mankind is an foreverlasting self-mutilation. Why you should do it ? To me as an entp its easy: cause barely anyone else does it. I will swing with the moment.

Is that good? I dont know. Is it impoortant what is right or wrong? Or is it important what is important to you?!