[INFJ] Dealing with an unhealth INFJ so I come out unscathed.

[prplchknz]

I don't really want to help this person grow I tried being the friend thing and I tried being sympathetic, listening to her complain, and I see her staying the same selfish person doing the same things over and over again.\. I just want ways for me to cope, and not be manipulated. and then in may when my lease is up unless she does a complete 180 I move out.

 

[heart]

No I wasn't trying to say for her personal growth or anything, I just think that he's right in that you'll a better response out of them by activating their Fe.

In my experience with people in general, there's no way for me to escape the guilt thing, so I just have to try and ignore it and push on with what I need to do for myself. Let me tell you about my in-laws and brother sometime, ugh major manipulators, major guilt producers when things don't go their way. ugh, ugh ugh. That's why God made answering machines!

 

[substitute]

Did it not occur to you that go to store to get baking soda vs take on ten year + commitment of dog is a somewhat uneven deal...? Sorta like 'help me with this zipper and I'll give you my Ferrari"?

I'd have said "Sod you then, I'll go to the store myself."
Knowing the person from previous experience, was someone not likely to follow through on promises or deals, there's pretty much nothing that could've persuaded me to give in to her request, no deal, no promise of hers no matter how big, because it wouldn't be worth the air molecules it was transmitted on.

 

[prplchknz]

Did it not occur to you that go to store to get baking soda vs take on ten year + commitment of dog is a somewhat uneven deal...? Sorta like 'help me with this zipper and I'll give you my Ferrari"?

I'd have said "Sod you then, I'll go to the store myself."
Knowing the person from previous experience, was someone not likely to follow through on promises or deals, there's pretty much nothing that could've persuaded me to give in to her request, no deal, no promise of hers no matter how big, because it wouldn't be worth the air molecules it was transmitted on.

I was still drinking coffee...so no. bad excuse I know.

So if I help you with your zipper you'll give me a Ferrari? where's this zipper you need help with?

 

[heart]

^ lol, When I first read that, I totally understood how that happened! It's an INFP thang...

Getting caught when Te is still sleeping.

 

[substitute]

I was still drinking coffee...so no. bad excuse I know.

OK, future disaster avoidance tactic: make NO your default answer to everything, and then later you can change your mind if you want to after you've thought about it.

If you can't say 'no', like if that's too much assertiveness all in one go, try 'I'll think about it'. But under no circumstances say 'yes' to anything when the person has approached you. Make your 'yes' the thing you say when you approach them after you've thought about it.

 

[heart]

INFP thought blunders are very, very hard to avoid because the very thing needed to avoid them is malfunctioning and so easy to get caught up on the one detail "I need baking soda" and not even realize that thinking is hung up. *sigh* it's very hard even after knowing this about one's self because the very aparatus that lets you see it is happening is the apparatus that malfuctions to make it happen. ... no one really probably understood what I just said...

 

[substitute]

but even with Te hung up, you can still realize that somebody's asking you something, and develop a habit of just saying no until you've had a chance to figure it out.

basically it's either that or go your entire life being made a sucker of. *shrug*

 

[heart]

but even with Te hung up, you can still realize that somebody's asking you something, and develop a habit of just saying no until you've had a chance to figure it out.

basically it's either that or go your entire life being made a sucker of. *shrug*

It's not an either or situation. I am telling you based on experience that yes I can aspire to be watchful for it and I have developed a habit to say I'll think about it and I do catch it like 98.999 percent of the time, but sooner or later I get caught in an unguarded moment, usually due to physical fatigue or extreme stress. It's going to happen more easily with the people one lives with.

See, I read her post and I assumed she knows some of this about herself already but got caught in some kind of unguarded moment where baking soda became the pivotal point on which all further progress rested and well... I know the forehead slapping nature of that and feeling of self-recrimination and the frustration of it that all comes afterwards when thinking clears and one realizes "man oh man all I had to do was say I'll think about it".

 

[substitute]

LOL it's amazing for me to hear all this, I wouldn't have imagined anyone could seriously work like that hahaha

Cos see, though for me honouring agreements and keeping promises is practically a pathological obsession (really!), if I'd made a 'deal' like that I wouldn't have felt any compunction about going back on it later on. In fact I'm pretty sure that even an INFP can notice within minutes that they've just done a very silly thing, and the option exists of saying "wait a minute - ha, nice try, you almost got me there! yeah right, that's a fair deal, NOT!"

Even if it weren't for hours or until the time came for you to honour the agreement, the option still exists to say "Haha, nice one, like you're gonna convince me that you REALLY thought I'd be stupid enough to agree to getting a dog in exchange for some baking soda??"

The way i see it, any promise or agreement extracted under duress or unfair conditions is no deal, basically.

 

[heart]

As I understood it, the dog issue has been on the table for a time now. I remember reading about in Purple's blog, about them getting a puppy but that the roommate had to wait until she had more money or something.

I thought the baking soda compromise was simply about that would be the day they finally went and looked at dogs to pick one out, but I didn't think it was the first time it had been brought up.

The roommate has agreed to take total care of the dog, if she doesn't, the onus is really still on the roommate for not following commitments.

 

[substitute]

yeah that's what I figured too, but still the fact remains that whether it was a spontaneous request or a repeat of an earlier request, purple needs to really learn how to not end up in ridiculous situations through a misplaced feeling of honour/obligation.

she wants advice, so that's what I'm giving. how to deal with an unhealthy INFJ? Don't expect them to change their ways, don't think you can make them change. All you can do for now is change the way YOU operate so as to limit the damage their craziness inflicts on your life and those of others linked to you.

 

[heart]

Yeah, an INFP just has to sometimes learn to swallow or live with feelings of guilt and do what has to be done to protect themselves. It's probably always a good idea to get out of situations where INFP has to live with manipulative people.

Like I have a sibling who is always, always pushing at my limits. And everyone is like always saying well just take a hard line with them and don't let them push you around but the truth is that means always needing to be on guard and like I said I can be like 98 percent of the time but sooner or later I'll get caught in a weak moment and it is not really laziness sub, you are showing a misunderstanding there.

Anyway, bottomline I had to cut this person out of my life because they are always manupulating, always draining, always pushing the limits an never will listen to me when I have told them over and over and over what needs to change, even they say "well just put me in my place when I step over the line." sorry folks! I am not responsible for holding you to your side of the boundary issue. I am only responsible for mine and for letting you know what I need. I am not a parent or an enforcer.

It's just better I think for an INFP to limit private life to those people they can trust well and I really hope Purple can get out of this roommate situation soon.

 

[cafe]

I think really I feel like I was manipulated into this dog. Because, I was like I'm out of baking soda (I was making pancakes) and I didn't feel like going to the store, so I asked my room mate. She made me promise we'd go get a dog that day. And when I promise I will not go back on them. She knows this, and I feel like I probably would have gone to the store in the reverse and not asked for anything in return except maybe "well I was going to switch my clothes from the washer to the dryer, could you please do that?" not even making her promise. I should have gotten off my lazy ass and gone myself, would have not been in this mess.

Also I'm being a little preememtive on this. But I know I've been in situations with her where she does stuff and takes care of things then all of a sudden decides she doesn't want to deal or doesn't have time and I get kinda manipulated into taking care of things for her. So she is taking care of the dog, but I'm also paranoid.

Forgive the Biblical reference, but holy birthright for a mess of pottage, Batman! IMO, you're not obligated to put up with a dog in exchange for a quick run to the store. I mean, if she had to hike through a mile of knee deep snow to get it, that would be one thing, but I'm assuming it's not the case. That was an extremely juvenile thing for her to pull. Call her on it and, yes, use guilt if needed. She ought to be ashamed of herself.

Yeah, an INFP just has to sometimes learn to swallow or live with feelings of guilt and do what has to be done to protect themselves. It's probably always a good idea to get out of situations where INFP has to live with manipulative people.

Like I have a sibling who is always, always pushing at my limits. And everyone is like always saying well just take a hard line with them and don't let them push you around but the truth is that means always needing to be on guard and like I said I can be like 98 percent of the time but sooner or later I'll get caught in a weak moment and it is not really laziness sub, you are showing a misunderstanding there.

Anyway, bottomline I had to cut this person out of my life because they are always manupulating, always draining, always pushing the limits an never will listen to me when I have told them over and over and over what needs to change, even they say "well just put me in my place when I step over the line." sorry folks! I am not responsible for holding you to your side of the boundary issue. I am only responsible for mine and for letting you know what I need. I am not a parent or an enforcer.

It's just better I think for an INFP to limit private life to those people they can trust well and I really hope Purple can get out of this roommate situation soon.

Ugh! I have this problem too. Maybe I am an INFP after all.

 

[prplchknz]

Points to talk about with room mate.
-Getting baking soda and getting a dog are two different things, entirely.
-Did not respect my request when filling out the paper work to get along with other animals.
*I pay half the rent, if my brother needs a place for his pets for a few days, they can stay here. It's not fair to me that you seem to get whatever you want, and I'm often making sacrifices. Also their's a huge difference between taking care of a dog for a few days and owning one.
-You lied. You lied to me and the person at the place. You do not have a boyfriend, you aren't going to keep the promises you made. This is a big issue with me, this is mostly why I'm saying no dog ever.
-You aren't going to have time, you are taking 19 credits. Come a few weeks you're going to realize this. And when you start trying to get me to take care of the dog, I'm taking him back. This is the other big point of no dog.
-You can not give him free reign of the apartment while you're out.
-I want the trash can on the floor, and my bean bag chair back by the tv.


So next time you want something like this don't lie, and make me make ridiculous deals. Oh and lots of people don't have pets in college, some how they all survived, and you will to.

 

[Martian Manifesto]

I'm sure you are the voice of reason, but you are also a newb. Granted, the OP and I aren't what you would call close, be we have been on the forum together for over a year and admittedly, I get protective. This isn't the first time her roomie has been a problem or tried to leave her holding the bag. If it was the first time, I'd be prone to being more sympathetic toward the INFJ.

I also know prplchknz is a responsible, reasonable person who can sort through the advice she gets here and decide what to use, what to toss, and what to save for later. *shrug*

I may be a "newb" to this board, but I think you may be showing a lack of clarity on this issue. That or the OP showed a lack of clarity in stating what advice she wanted. I may be mistaken in these points but I don't see them yet. Perhaps it is because I am a "newb".

1) This is an ongoing situation? That doesn't improve your or the OP's position. The says that this has been festering and the heart-to-heart hasn't happened, when it should have, for a LONG time. I thought the heart-to-heart was imperative when this shiet had been going on for a SHORT time. The INFP NEEDS to STATE what is in her mind to the INFJ. You can call that "newb" thinking but I am fairly certain of this as a basic tennant of conflict resolution and management. IF this heart-to-heart HAS happened then I change my approach of course. But I asked this question very early on. I asked because in conflict resolution it shoudl be on your short list of questions to ask. The first being "are you in danger right now?" Right after that I usually ask "Does this person know the things you just said to me?"

2) Well if the OP does possess the discernment to know what to "toss" I hope it is any advice of going J. Again, I am going with what the OP stated. First, in the title itself is "...come out unscathed". If you go J you will not come out unscathed from an INFJ, especially if you have to live with them for over half a year. That will be the longest several months ever. And INFPs do not do well in confrontations with INFJs where the INFP can't leave afterwards. INFJs are long-burn haters when they go bad. IF this person is as possibly immature as you say, this is a major concern.

3) I state this only as a generality: INFPs are NOT good at making decisions when their Fi is in overdrive. The first and subsequent posts of the OP lead me to believe this is the state she is in. This could be wrong of course. I don't know this INFP very well at all. But I think most third party observers would say that the OP is quite upset right now. IF this is the case, then another thing she should "toss" is any notion of doing anything with this first wave of emotions. Let it wash over and then make you choice.

4) The OP also made a brief referrence to this person being a friend. I'm assuming this has gone south. But how south? Again, this is like the third effing question you ask in conflict resolution. What can be saved? What do you WANT to be saved? Even if the answer is NOTHING, the person should still STATE that to herself and anyone else she is asking advice from. These are you navigation points in conflict resolution.

 

[Martian Manifesto]

Anyway, bottomline I had to cut this person out of my life because they are always manupulating, always draining, always pushing the limits an never will listen to me when I have told them over and over and over what needs to change, even they say "well just put me in my place when I step over the line." sorry folks! I am not responsible for holding you to your side of the boundary issue. I am only responsible for mine and for letting you know what I need. I am not a parent or an enforcer.
QUOTE]

Agree 100%. You articulate what your needs are clearly. If they don't respond, then you must shun them. For the OP, maybe use another friend as a buffer in the interim?

 

[prplchknz]

I didn't have to approach her about taking the dog back. She actually approached me, and said that he's going back friday that she doesn't have time for a dog right now. I was dreading, having to bring it up, but if she hadn't I would have brought it up.

 

[cafe]

I didn't have to approach her about taking the dog back. She actually approached me, and said that he's going back friday that she doesn't have time for a dog right now. I was dreading, having to bring it up, but if she hadn't I would have brought it up.

What a relief.

I may be a "newb" to this board, but I think you may be showing a lack of clarity on this issue. That or the OP showed a lack of clarity in stating what advice she wanted. I may be mistaken in these points but I don't see them yet. Perhaps it is because I am a "newb".

1) This is an ongoing situation? That doesn't improve your or the OP's position. The says that this has been festering and the heart-to-heart hasn't happened, when it should have, for a LONG time. I thought the heart-to-heart was imperative when this shiet had been going on for a SHORT time. The INFP NEEDS to STATE what is in her mind to the INFJ. You can call that "newb" thinking but I am fairly certain of this as a basic tennant of conflict resolution and management. IF this heart-to-heart HAS happened then I change my approach of course. But I asked this question very early on. I asked because in conflict resolution it shoudl be on your short list of questions to ask. The first being "are you in danger right now?" Right after that I usually ask "Does this person know the things you just said to me?"

2) Well if the OP does possess the discernment to know what to "toss" I hope it is any advice of going J. Again, I am going with what the OP stated. First, in the title itself is "...come out unscathed". If you go J you will not come out unscathed from an INFJ, especially if you have to live with them for over half a year. That will be the longest several months ever. And INFPs do not do well in confrontations with INFJs where the INFP can't leave afterwards. INFJs are long-burn haters when they go bad. IF this person is as possibly immature as you say, this is a major concern.

3) I state this only as a generality: INFPs are NOT good at making decisions when their Fi is in overdrive. The first and subsequent posts of the OP lead me to believe this is the state she is in. This could be wrong of course. I don't know this INFP very well at all. But I think most third party observers would say that the OP is quite upset right now. IF this is the case, then another thing she should "toss" is any notion of doing anything with this first wave of emotions. Let it wash over and then make you choice.

4) The OP also made a brief referrence to this person being a friend. I'm assuming this has gone south. But how south? Again, this is like the third effing question you ask in conflict resolution. What can be saved? What do you WANT to be saved? Even if the answer is NOTHING, the person should still STATE that to herself and anyone else she is asking advice from. These are you navigation points in conflict resolution.

People are messy, not neat case studies in books. This is not a therapist's office, this is a an internet forum. Your advice is helpful in a clinical way, which is great, but that's not really my style in informal friendship-ish situations. There's no reason both approaches can't be valid and helpful. I am not about being "correct" I'm about offering opinions and being a morally supportive sounding board. I believe both styles have their place. My style is different than yours but it doesn't invalidate yours. I don't know why you need to be "right."

 

[Martian Manifesto]

What a relief.


People are messy, not neat case studies in books. This is not a therapist's office, this is a an internet forum. Your advice is helpful in a clinical way, which is great, but that's not really my style in informal friendship-ish situations. There's no reason both approaches can't be valid and helpful. I am not about being "correct" I'm about offering opinions and being a morally supportive sounding board. I believe both styles have their place. My style is different than yours but it doesn't invalidate yours. I don't know why you need to be "right."

You are correct. People are messy. Even when you know them personally. When you are asked advice about people you don't know it gets messier still. I am an INFJ. The OP asked for advice in regards to an INFJ. I went with that direction. I do not have to be right. In fact I do not believe I am "right". I don't really have a say in this matter. It is just a point of view regarding interactions with INFJs. It is an educated point of view in that I have some experience but it is just a point of view. You are free to ignore it. However I will say one thing that you may want to consider and it is this: People are messy and individualist BUT there are basic protocols for doing certain activities (dancing, making war, making love, conflict resolution) where there are well documented methodologies that have a higher percentage chance of success than others. Percentages aren't people. Just like this INFJ is not INFJs. I was working with what I knew: INFJs and conflict resolution. And this is just my personal experience and study. So just like when I engage in a physical challenge with another person, I do understand that each person is different but the type of physical challenge will have a great deal to do with how I approach. Also, in a physical challenge I would size up the person's build, footwork, eye movements INITIALLY to see if my Ni could relate it to any challenge opponent I had faced before thus improving the speed at which I intuit the optimum plan. It also will cut down on errors. This is why hunters go to water holes. It doesn't mean you are going to get anything, the prey could not be into it...but it is a percentages game.

Percentages and initiatory protocols do not replace individual circumstances. Completely acknowledged. They are often useful though. Why reinvent the wheel when you can start with some prior people's work and go from there?

My approach may sound clinical to you, but I have much practical experience with conflict resolution. More experience than clinical theorizing. Clinical theorizing helps optimize and help you start out on the right foot.

If I have offended you, then I sincerely apologize.

Great news on the roommate thing working out as it did. Glad to hear it.

P.S.: I was trying to be as morally supportive as I could, but if I think somebody might try an approach that could lead them to some emotional unpleasant scenarios that might be avoided, then that takes precedence. The guilt would kill me.