[NF] Communicating between Fe and Fi

[sriv]

I think the thread has become a bitch-fest. Fe thinks Fi is too greedy, Fi thinks Fe is too nosy. The end.

Maybe Te and Ti should join. Then it will be a superbitch-fest!

 

[Athenian200]

Maybe Te and Ti should join. Then it will be a superbitch-fest!

I believe they already did. If you look closely, you can see subtle Te elements appearing in the Fi posts, and subtle Ti elements in the Fe posts. It's weird how having one seems to guarantee that the other will work in the opposite direction.

To some extent, I realized that every conflict I have with Fi-people is generally based on their idea that something is either done or not, while I was focused on how they did it, and the qualities of the action itself. To them, it's been covered and the same question is being asked again, while to me it's a different nuance of the same idea that may not have been addressed. I was able to understand them a bit better when I realized that, but it's still difficult and I have to fight my instincts in order to communicate with FP's. But it is possible.

 

[wedekit]

To some extent, I realized that every conflict I have with Fi-people is generally based on their idea that something is either done or not, while I was focused on how they did it, and the qualities of the action itself. To them, it's been covered and the same question is being asked again, while to me it's a different nuance of the same idea that may not have been addressed. I was able to understand them a bit better when I realized that, but it's still difficult and I have to fight my instincts in order to communicate with FP's. But it is possible.

I never made this connection, but I work with many Fi's and this definitely a problem that I experience with them (and even my best friend! ENFP).

 

[Haphazard]

Fe+Ti -- is that why FJs are hairsplitters when it comes to conduct?

 

[cafe]

Hmm. Interesting. So Fi maybe spends time on should/should not? In this context, I agree that people should mind their own business and leave people that don't want to be bothered alone. That, to me, is a given.

But realistically, I know there's about a snowball's chance of that ever happening, so should/should not has about zero relevance to a discussion on intrusive people. Yeah, they're intrusive. Yeah, it sucks. That's the end of that conversation and nothing is accomplished unless we're just venting.

Nothing wrong with venting, but I hate for things to end there. I dislike inertia in the face of vexation and if things are screwed up, I want to know why, how, etc and what are some things that can be done to improve the situation. I can't begin to fathom being unhappy with a situation and not working towards improving it.

Society's not going to change for our comfort and convenience. We have no ability to control the actions of anyone but ourselves, so that is why I bring up strategies for dealing with intrusive people. We've already established that they are intrusive. What would be the point of belaboring it?

 

[proteanmix]

Society's not going to change for our comfort and convenience. We have no ability to control the actions of anyone but ourselves, so that is why I bring up strategies for dealing with intrusive people. We've already established that they are intrusive. What would be the point of belaboring it?

Exactly. That's why I'm about finding practical solutions for how to deal with the intrusive people (FJ or no) rather than just complaining about them. I'd rather tell people how to navigate around them.

FineLine, could you explain more what this Fe ping pong looks like (beyond the basic generic questions) from an observer's perspective? I know what it's like when I get into a really good groove with another EFJ (or any ExFx) and it can be exhilarating. Maybe other's do just see it as wild gesturing and squealing, idk, but I think it's fun.

 

[Haphazard]

What do I see in this pingpong game?

Facts are adjustable. I guess that makes sense considering these confrontations aren’t really important, but I’ve even doubted the soundness of my memory while listening to people engage in ‘small talk.’ When listening to my mother talk about things that have happened to the family, I wonder if I’m not going mad because of how much things are adjusted to fit whatever ‘small talk’ is happening.’

Now, I’m no goody-two-shoes. I lie, too. I’d even say that I lie on a regular basis. I won’t even say that it’s wrong to lie. In many cases, lying is very, very good. I lie for a purpose, though; these have none except to impress the other player. The force at which these lies happen, the frequency and consistency never ceases to astound me. I don’t know where they get the energy.

Every phrase is a challenge, meaning everything is fair game – even things that should be private, because the challenge must be met. The truth may be stretched to its breaking point, but things about me and things about them that I’d be mortified if anybody knew are revealed and I don’t know why they have to do this. Nobody is forcing them to, but they do anyway, just out of sheer momentum of competition. The ‘pingpong’ players aren’t thinking. They just DO. Maybe I’m just a simple NT, stuck in ‘analysis is paralysis,’ but if you don’t look where you’re going, you’re going to hurt someone. The stakes may be momentously low but they play like there’s nothing more important, without a care to the consequences of what they reveal.

Fine. It’s in ‘good fun.’ Whatever. It may just be pingpong to you, but I see a vicious blood sport, with no enjoyment to be taken from it. On top of that, there’s too much effort for absolutely zero gain. Why would I put up with play?

 

[entropie]

When listening to my mother talk about things that have happened to the family, I wonder if I’m not going mad because of how much things are adjusted to fit whatever ‘small talk’ is happening.’

The problem is, if you really start to use your emotion in analysis, you enter into a dark and lonely corridor, where you, when you do have the strength by any chance to walk it through, will come to an end that does not much differ from the start. Because in the beginning you saw imperfection in you and in others and in the end you will see it, too.

If you can't separate vulcan logic from "severe felt irrational behaviour of others" traumata, you are free to join my club .

I think when you have already grown fond to a lying thing, you must switch it, to an ignoring thing. To listen to small talk is no big challenge for anyone and if you have, in any part of your soul, the feeling of wanting to be strong, you listen to others small talk and make them happy just by doing so. Even if you are feeling guilty, because of you not sharing your point of view of things with someone you like at the moment. Some people are just not intrested in that kind of deep feelings or thoughts in small talk situations.

When then comes the minute, when you have that different feeling that you can not bear the shit of the others anymore and all your good will in staying strong vanishes, bear two things in mind: a) most of the people can't bear your shit either. And: b) some people are in most ways completly different from youm but they are feeling just as lone as you.

Just from another PoV

 

[cafe]

It can turn into a bloodsport, most definitely. If there is a way to opt out of it without being a hermit, I don't know what that way is.

How do you keep peace with your neighbors without being friendly, showing them you are not some scary freak they should try to force out of the neighborhood? How do you get through a job interview? How do you make the social connections to maintain and/or advance your career? How do you find and court a romantic partner? How do you establish open lines of communication with your children's teachers?

The only effective way I've found to do this is through Fe ping pong. I've tried opting out with disastrous effects and have come to the conclusion that it's just the way our species works. You really don't get to opt out of your species, if you try, you only end up a pariah. Most of the time, bad things happen to pariahs.

 

[Haphazard]

The problem is, if you really start to use your emotion in analysis, you enter into a dark and lonely corridor, where you, when you do have the strength by any chance to walk it through, will come to an end that does not much differ from the start. Because in the beginning you saw imperfection in you and in others and in the end you will see it, too.

If you can't separate vulcan logic from severe felt irrational behaviour of others traumata, you are free to join my club

I'm just listening and I can't make sense of it. I continuously have to question my memory because I have no idea what's going on. I hear people reminiscing and I can never relate, even if I was there, so I've stopped trying. I've been so sure that there's something wrong with me because I can't reminisce and remember like other people do. There was stuff that happened before, but I pillage the past for all the information it's worth and leave it, to never return.

Not imperfection in others, just crippling imperfection in myself.

 

[entropie]

I'm just listening and I can't make sense of it. I continuously have to question my memory because I have no idea what's going on. I hear people reminiscing and I can never relate, even if I was there, so I've stopped trying. I've been so sure that there's something wrong with me because I can't reminisce and remember like other people do. There was stuff that happened before, but I pillage the past for all the information it's worth and leave it, to never return.

I guess that is one fundamental difference between sensing and intuition. Don't be afraid of it, I myself have exactly the same problem.

I have had for 4 years the relationship of my life, with a beautiful woman, I experienced so much with and I shared so much with.

I was asked some time ago, by my new fience, I have now 2 years after my relationship, what it was like back then.

Even if I try I cant remember. If I think of images, I can remember things I have seen all day that much often that they rae burned into the brain. But even them I can only describe vaguely. If someone asks me to describe my ex girlfriend, I can pinpoint out things like brown hair and brown eyes and a general shape of her face, but I guess it would be a completly wrong phantom image.

I pointed out one special example concerning the pasts. All unspecial examples concerning the past, I remember shit. I even can not remember, what I did last friday.

But I do remember that Planck constant is 6.582 * 10^-16 eV*s

In my opinion, all mankind has to understand the fundamental thing that there are people who do those things and that there are people who do that things.

The important facts are that no man alone can be equal to another. So when there are differences you have with yourself, you cant expect to find in others the truth you seek, because they see things again different. You just can build a sum of a view on one topic and then decide on the best, the one you like most or the one that best suites you.

And the other thing is, nobody is perfect. It is the team, that consists of the one who has the idea, the one who builds the machine and the one who does nothing, sitting in the corner, bearing responsibility .

 

[Domino]

It has suddenly come to my attention that all the people I'm in daily contact with are Fi (with the exception of the NTP horde who are constant yet irregular invaders at Casa del Piranha, and also my INFJ dad). I'm the lone Fe amongst my best friends.

Go.... for help...

 

[heart]

This is what I get so far:

Fe says: "Do it my way and there will be no trouble, what's wrong with you? Why won't you just do it my way? You don't do your hello and greeting in just the right way? Well then it will never be good enough. You need to spend more time trying to give me what I want and no it cannot be faked, it has to be done in just the right tone and you better be consistent and always do it. You don't get no special treatment, I deserve to get everything my way each and every time, even from you!

You expect to ignore me and get away with it? What's that? You say you didn't ignore me that you said hello? Well, look here missy it wasn't delivered with just the right tone and context and with the inflextion I expected so it doesn't count! Give me what I expect or I will toss your sincere efforts on to the trash heap of all the others who don't bow and scrape to my exact specifications.

So stop your useless venting and do something practical, like play the game my way and meet me 100 percent over at my side."

And no, for the countless time, I am not talking about totally ignoring people...

 

[entropie]

I quoted you on that one in a chat @haphazard

Find it just good ! Hope you don't mind

 

[Haphazard]

I quoted you on that one in a chat @haphazard

Find it just good ! Hope you don't mind

Wait.

What did you do?

 

[Nadir]

The thread's title is confusing. Or should I say, misleading.
Good thing the subsection helps alleviate it somewhat.

 

[Totenkindly]

I'll have to say in my teens and twenties I thought the Fe stuff was crap -- a bunch of silly impositions, unfair expectations, control mechanisms, just... trite and pointless.

But that attitude did not pay off for me, nor do I think it was completely right. It's definitely one perspective on it, but there are different ways to view the Fe approach.

If you don't grease the wheels / put in your time, you WILL suffer. You can't get by being a hermit nowadays, not without a lot of sacrifice and limitations on yourself. You do need the support of others in a specialized society in order to achieve the things you'd like and to have the venues to contribute to others, to find new work, etc. When you don't put in the time and effort, you limit yourself.

I think that a lot of the bad feelings are attributing more to the Fe style method of communication than actually is warranted or appropriate. If you mistake Fe style behavior for always been "deep and intimate and meaningful," then it will seem shallow to you. But it's not. It does the job it was intended to do. Some people give it a bad name because they go to the other extreme and just use it to manipulate -- making it far more shallow than it is supposed to be.

It's just another form of communication, except you are less imparting pure information and more informing others of your intentions and motivations and role in the community.

If you keep it on that level, then you should be able to use it appropriately.

 

[Haphazard]

I'm going to go ahead and say that I don't like to be forced.

If given the choice, I may take the high road, but if I'm dragged to the high road, my first inclination is to rebel. Maybe it's personal experience but socially, I've mostly been forced. If I'm thrown into a new place on my own, I usually make new friends quite easily and quickly -- but if I'm there and someone else is around insisting that I meet new people, nothing happens -- because I'm being forced.

The following of social rules and impositions is force. The side of Fe that truly cares and tries to do what's best for me is something I can appreciate, but the force I can't stand. If you let me go, I may follow. I may not, but if this 'Fe' communication is really so important, I trust that I'll be able to figure it out eventually. But in the meantime, any social push will merit an equal and opposite reaction. So the best advice for now would be to stop pushing me so hard.

 

[proteanmix]

Haphazard is this thread about you communicating with FJs because that seems to be what it keeps returning to.

If it's just about your miscommunications after it's been admitted several times that you are the one with the low tolerance for pain I really can't take you too seriously.

It seems to me like you're complaining about the same thing over and over again after several attempts have been made to explain things to you. Tell the FJs in your life to back the fuck off and get on with it.

 

[Haphazard]

It seems to me like you're complaining about the same thing over and over again after several attempts have been made to explain things to you. Tell the FJs in your life to back the fuck off and get on with it.

Maybe I'll try that. Doesn't sound like a bad idea at all.