[ENFP] Common ENFP issues

[Esoteric Wench]

My INTJ have talked about this-recognizing that you have just hit an Fi value...The INTJ make take an utterly insane, illogical stance in a simple issue...I initially want to protest feeling as though i am being controlled, then something "clicks".

I STFU and drop the issue and walk away-just like when an ENTP gets neurotic about something. I dont know why or what provoked the slight emo edge on the convo, but I recognize by the slight increase in emotive stress level, that it is something Fi bound. During that moment of stress is NOT the time to discuss the issue. Later in a calm, more neutral place, it can be discussed and debated regarding whose Fi value trumps the other Fi value or how we can navigate the two Fi value sets-but not in the moment.

Often enfps will ask for time to process aka "let's talk about it later" or "everything is fine" even if they are pissy...as we know it is Fi getting all pissed about something, but recognize we will get angry if question and respond badly.

My Fi is so flexible that I will redefine it, as my ultimate goal is love for the other, so if it is something silly, I will often pull an ENFP chameleon and adapt to their needs-but I dont think most enfps are quite like that.

I'm going through a little Fi stress about the fact that I don't see a way around Fe/Fi conflicts. So it's easier for me to respond to Orobas than Fidelia right now. (But be assured that I read both of your responses and am considering them.)

One of the things I immediately recognized in Orobas' response was the need to STFU and walk away. I do this based on instinct. Maybe it's another way to describe my need to throttle incoming information. Maybe it's more than just trying to prevent my Ne from becoming overstimulated. Perhaps it's about not letting my Fi overtake my response.

I've said it before, but it bears repeating here, that I think that one of the interesting things about Orobas is that she and I share some common Fi values. This means that not only do she and I share the entire ENFP thing, but also (because our Fi values overlap) we present our ENFP-ness in a similar way.

I was floored when I read what Orobas had said about incorporating logic into her Fi values. I consciously and pre-meditatedly do this, too. Not only was I raised to value logic and empiricism by my INTJ mother and ENTP father... But also, I was trained in college to detach and examine the world from an empirical/deductive perspective.

So thanks for pointing out the need to STFU as a critical life skill for ENFPs. I think you're very right.

 

[CzeCze]

Hee hee, Esoteric, I'm actually ENFP but I guess I'm in the minority in the forum (so far?) of ENFPs who don't have an issue with Fe.

I think when you have violated an Fi's values there are 2 ways to go about it the aftermath.

1) Let the Fi user simmer down. It's like with anyone who gets very upset regardless of their type, sometimes you just need to let them calm down before approaching them again. For an Fi dom/aux, this might take a looooong time. L.O.L.

2) Get Fi user to try to see it from the other person's POV. I have found this is the best way to go about it. And also, very clearly but in a 'soft-edged' way tell the Fi user how ridiculous their stance is. I usually use humor or gentle nudges. Or if that's pointless or hasn't worked, I just get very explicit.

3) It really depends on the individual person. Some XNFPs just will not budge. Or ge more and more upset that you are challenging the point. Then you just have to decide how much it is worth it, how much you want to expend trying to get the other to change their mind. Often in conflict, I think the point is not to change other people's positions but rather to have your own acknowledged.

For me, as an ENFP with lots of Fi, it is often enough to state my case, clearly, and with no equivocation and then I bounce. I choose my battles pretty carefully and the ones I choose I'm just in it to win it, folks! LOL.

You have to understand too, that when an Fi user gets 'really mad' because their value has been tripped or they feel disrespected, they really don't care in that moment whether the relationship is sacrificed or how you feel. The universe closes into a tight non-peripheral circle around their heads. In other words, there is tunnel vision. I'm pretty sure the 'tunnel vision' is common to the population regardless of type, it's just that with an Fi user, it gets wrapped up in their emotional history and the matter at hand is all INCREDIBLY and heavily imbued with a lot of ethical/philosophical/personal significance. The kind that will make you hyperventilate in public.

So maybe scaling it back with an XNFP and super simplifying the matter helps. As in focusing on exactly the matter at hand and try to put things in perspective.

PS The "STFU and walk away" thing - I'm opposite. Normally I will say my peace and bounce, but when I'm really pissed or have my Fi really trampled, I cannot help but just go for it. Otherwise, it will eat me up inside and I'd rather yell at someone else for 3/5/15 minutes than have the equivalent of my psyche and inner child yelling at me for the rest of the day or week.

 

[Fidelia]

Very interesting and helpful! Do Fi users ever accidentally trample each other's values, or are they likely to see where that would happen before it does happen and just steer clear?

 

[Esoteric Wench]

Very interesting and helpful! Do Fi users ever accidentally trample each other's values, or are they likely to see where that would happen before it does happen and just steer clear?

Wow! Fidelia, when I thought I had looked at this issue from every possible angle, you came up with a question I hadn't yet considered. Hmmmm.....

I'm thinking of my two INFP best friends and how this would work....

Remember that I'm just considering this for the first time, but here's a go:

I guess if I thought that my Fi-user friend had violated one of my Fi values, I'd feel pretty comfortable saying to them that I was considering whether or not their way was the right way to handle the situation." If their way wasn't feeling Fi right to me, I'd not hesitate (in fact feel compelled) to tell them. However, I don't think they'd respond to me in the way that an Fe user would respond.

If I told my INFP BFF that I was troubled by such a matter, I would feel completely comfortable debating a value. For example, my friend might bring up a scenario in which my proposed superior Fi value wouldn't work. Then, I'd sincerely consider if I needed to reconsider my Fi value. No communication gap. No stress. Just Fi with Fi. And, the person to make the better logical argument would win.

My natural affinity for logic aside, I think both ENFPs and ENTPs respond particularly well to logic. However, I would intuitively tread more lightly with an INFP. It's hard to explain, but my gut tells me that I need to give my dear and beautiful INFP friends a teeny bit more space to sort out their Fi logic after I point out it's Fi erroneous components.

I've never really thought about this before but, I think that my Fi user friends and I have this implicit understanding that it's OK (even expected/best practice) to participate in a debate re: what is the correct value to have in a particular situation. In other words, it's important to Fi (in conjunction with Ni or Ne) to discuss and analyze Fi values. In fact, this is one of the hallmark of Fi values.... to believe (right or wrong) that one's Fi values are superior to Fe values. (I'm not trying to be insulting here, but this is how the Fi-Fe dynamic feels to me.... like Fe values are lesser somehow to Fi values.)

 

[Fidelia]

I realize that Fi does feel that way. However, I don't think they often take the time to do the debate thing to see why we'd go about things the way we do.

What do you suppose would happen if a Fe user tried approaching the issue the way another Fi user would, but with their sense of values? Would it get weird? I think it would feel to us like we were being quite rude, but perhaps it would actually work better. However, would the Fi user then be able to approach the Fe user in their preferred manner, or would that feel totally like selling out? Could it be serving another greater value of theirs or just seem like only the convention they are using rather than the underlying meaning of that convention?

To me, the reason for using certain methods of approaching someone is not because I am so attached to that method as the right way. It is because as an underlying value, I want to be heard by them, or I want them to feel respected, or I don't want to make them feel rejected, or I want to allow them to talk about something that matters to them etc. It is serving a greating value of mine. When I object to a Fi user's way of dealing with things, it is because they are stepping on one of those values - showing kindness to someone else, making them feel loved or cared for etc, much in the same way that you might object publicly when you felt someone was being unfairly treated. It isn't trying to control you (just as you objecting publicly isn't being dramatic), but rather that I am trying to stand up for someone or something that I believe in that I feel is being trampled.

 

[Esoteric Wench]

Holy macaroni! I just responded to Fidelia's statement with the hallmark Fi reflux statement.

Let me try to tweak my response a bit to be more helpful to Fe users.... Also let me ask (in advance) for you readers to forgive me for being overly professorial. I see another analogy here between Fe and Fi users and the ways in which religious persons pursue their holy scriptures.

• Fe tendencies. For example, in many cultures, a young faithful Christian is expected to submit themselves to the way God wants them to behave. (BTW, the way God wants them to behave is normally interpreted by a well-meaning minister who is nearby. There is a wonderful assured quality to this outlook.
• Fi tendencies. I recall from grad school these WONDERFULLY comedic stories about Jewish young adult religious education. In Yeshiva, young Jewish men and women were taught how to debate their point of view. It was, in fact, encouraged. In other words, there was a core value that all persons involved in a moral debate had a right to debate the theological principal at hand.

In other words, for an Fi user, such debate only enhances one's understanding of the matter at hand. It is not seen as a liability.

I hope this makes sense.

 

[Fidelia]

No! Fe users (faithful or otherwise) do not just do what is expected of them with no underlying reasons. I am very frustrated by other Christians I see who really have no foundation for believing what they do other than that they were told to. I have arrived at my conclusions by observing others, by reading and discussing various stances and points of view with a variety of people and by personal experience. I don't debate in a Te way, but it doesn't mean that Fe users do not see the need for critical thinking. I am strongly against those who blindly follow a leader or minister and equate it with God's truth.

In my own ancestry, we have two branches of ancestry (Mennonite Germans and Scotch Presbyterians) who went on wild goose chases to Uzbekistan and New Zealand respectively because of following leaders like this. My mother, who is an ENFJ is the one in her family who was least likely to follow foolish people in the church just because they thought that they were speaking for God. This is not a Fe/Fi thing. I can see where debate to come to understand could be less preferred by some Fe users (particularly if they dislike adversarial discourse and no time to reflect before responding), but certainly that does not allow them to just accept what they are told they should because it is comfortable. That will be taken as very insulting by most Fe users!

(Incidentally as a disclaimer, I'm not upset at you, but I don't think this point can be stressed enough because it is not accurate).

I can see that my style of communicating or asking questions isn't particularly straightforward for you guys. I must fix that and am working on figuring out how. In the meantime though, I'm wondering about the answers to the questions I asked.

 

[Amargith]

I realize that the problem for Fi users is somewhat that they feel that no one has the one Right way to do things and that it is presumptuous for someone to believe they do. In Fe users eyes, they are trying to prevent trouble for you that seems needless and at cross purposes to your ultimate goal.

Very interesting and helpful! Do Fi users ever accidentally trample each other's values, or are they likely to see where that would happen before it does happen and just steer clear?

In reply to both these responses, I'd like to say that I very much appreciate Fe-users pointing out things that I'm oblivious to, that I've forgotten about, like keeping me from getting bear-mauled. What irks me is the way in which they do it. If they do it in an informative way, without any undertones, I truly love it. If however the tone clearly suggests that I clearly have the sense of responsibility of a child for not noticing myself and being an idiot, that's when I feel the need to blatantly ignore them and make it clear that they really don't have any say over who I am or what I do. Everyone can make mistakes. And they aint that perfect themselves. I also cannot stand hypocrisy or the need to feel better about yourself by knocking someone else a notch down. So I grow resentful and rebellious and will do *anything* I can (without harming myself or others) to escape their social control and prove them the opposite.

I *know* I'm prone to forgetfulness, and being up in my head and forgetting about details taht sometimes have big consequences. I also accept those consequences. I won't ask for your sympathy or pity afterwards when something happens. I'm grateful if you keep me from making a fool of myself or, in this case, from getting myself mauled. I however do not need an 'I told you so' or an 'how could you be so irresponsible?!' It's not like I did this on purpose.

and here's the kicker for a Fi-user:


IF YOU KNOW THEM, TRULY CONSIDER YOURSELF A FRIEND OF A FI-USER, YOU WILL KNOW THAT THEY WOULD NEVER DREAM OF HARMING YOU, THEMSELVES OR OTHERS ON PURPOSE.

That means that guilttripping us about a mistake we made IS NOT APPRECIATED. It goes back to intent. Yes, it went wrong. But it was not like we planned to get those bears on your ass or ours for that matter.

That's the thing. If you befriend a Fi-user, and you consider yourself a good friend, the one expectation this Fi-user will have is that you know who they are, as to them that's the core of a good friendship. Acquaintances are not expected to do so, neither are colleagues, but a good friend *knows* YOU. And it is that that we do ourselves with you as a friend. And that means that you can see and understand *why* someone does something, be it good, bad or foolhardy. And if you know it is in their nature, if it's their weakness to forget stuff, or be up in their head, you do *not* scold them when they're clearly trying but still mess up somehow. You help them. And you understand and forgive. Accept them for who they are. Yes, you can help them improve, but no, you *do not* have the right to blame them for their flaws as you yourself have your own flaws that you should fix first.

Let he who is without flaws cast the first stone.





As for your question as to how Fi-users approach each other...it can get tricky as well, depending on which values they adhere to. If one of those values gets tripped by the natural way of being by the other, they will grow to avoid one another as there will never really be a way to get along. And since they both recognize each others right to be who they are, they will give each other space (much like cats in a colony timeshare on the common goods so they don't have to be near one another but can still live together), enough space, not to irk one another.

If corevalues are being tripped in one, the other Fi-user will accomodate that person as they figure out what *exactly* set it off (providing it does not, as before, curb an important freedom-need of the other Fi-user). The willingness to listen to the other is what calms down Fi. The feeling that the other is, without judgement or expectation trying to calmly flesh out what happened, and truly wants to understand, is what Fi needs. As pointed out before, the core of respect and friendship is the fact that you make an effort to understand *who the person is*. And you do that by active listening, asking open questions without making assumptions. You can at some point go: so, what you're saying is: [insert sommation of info], but it had better be only a summing up of the facts, and not a conclusion+judgement.

And then...something magical happens. The second you get that right, you can judge. You can think what you want. You can disagree with it, presenting your view on it, you can tell them it's not for you, as long as you can demonstrate that you've actually grasped the pov correctly. The second you understand, the second that I can tell that you truly grasp what I'm on about, that you can see my pov, I can totally understand it being immoral, unethical or whatever it is yo uthink of it. I will still not allow you to impose your views on me, but I will respect your pov on the matter and will minimize the behavior that irks you so, around you, *becoz I care for you*.

But if you judge before you actually grasp the perspective, your judgement will be overruled. It's invalid at that point as it is based on incomplete info and therefore corrupted in my eyes. If you keep to a faulty pov, it becomes a sore topic. You're not making an effort to understand the way it's meant, and therefore I cannot accept your opinion or respect it. And that *will* show in the way I relate to you on that topic.


As for the other way around: how to tell a Fi-user to back off.

The best way is to ask for their understanding. Make them aware that something is emotionally off with you and they will pause to make space to figure it out. At that point, the best thing to do is explain to them your pov and why certain words or phrases make you cringe. Speak in 'I experience this this way', instead of 'Your way of being..' and flesh out how things would work for you. Once you do, realize that the Fi-user will adjust to what you prefer becoz they care for you, especially if you didn't hit a Fi-value in them, they'll be very adaptable normally. However, don't expect them to change their behavior with anyone else. Fi-users create a bond with everyone, formed on what that person needs, the fi-values they hold and what the extend of their bond is..not a general approach. It doesn't mean that we're 'lying to you' or just 'pretending to get you off of our backs' when we adjust, it actually is a sign of love as this is how we build a bond with someone, figuring out the perfect agreement that makes us both happy and comfortable.

 

[sculpting]

As for your question as to how Fi-users approach each other...it can get tricky as well, depending on which values they adhere to. If one of those values gets tripped by the natural way of being by the other, they will grow to avoid one another as there will never really be a way to get along. And since they both recognize each others right to be who they are, they will give each other space (much like cats in a colony timeshare on the common goods so they don't have to be near one another but can still live together), enough space, not to irk one another.

If corevalues are being tripped in one, the other Fi-user will accomodate that person as they figure out what *exactly* set it off (providing it does not, as before, curb an important freedom-need of the other Fi-user). The willingness to listen to the other is what calms down Fi. The feeling that the other is, without judgement or expectation trying to calmly flesh out what happened, and truly wants to understand, is what Fi needs. As pointed out before, the core of respect and friendship is the fact that you make an effort to understand *who the person is*. And you do that by active listening, asking open questions without making assumptions. You can at some point go: so, what you're saying is: [insert sommation of info], but it had better be only a summing up of the facts, and not a conclusion+judgement.

And then...something magical happens. The second you get that right, you can judge. You can think what you want. You can disagree with it, presenting your view on it, you can tell them it's not for you, as long as you can demonstrate that you've actually grasped the pov correctly. The second you understand, the second that I can tell that you truly grasp what I'm on about, that you can see my pov, I can totally understand it being immoral, unethical or whatever it is yo uthink of it. I will still not allow you to impose your views on me, but I will respect your pov on the matter and will minimize the behavior that irks you so, around you, *becoz I care for you*.
.

Satine gives a very good explanation of this tripping of Fi values. I see them as little trip wires around enfps. If you manage to clip one, they get angsty. Their eyes get kinda bulgy and they get abrupt. I dunno, I note czecze and satine want to talk about it in the moment....maybe because these are not close frineds, I find stepping away slowly is the best solution, especially if the trigger point wasnt something I care about. I learned along time ago to quell my own response, so it takes a lot to generate a vocal Fi response from me....but I have had other enfps go nuts on me

Back away slowly from the emo agitated....and as Satine said, if they are little stupid Fi oddities, you just learn not to step there for that person. If they are big ones, than you avoid them, or have to talk the issue out. But disagreement on big ones isnt too common, and if you are dedicated enough to the relationship to work through it, it is typically stuff you should talk about anyways..like religion, kids, and so on.

 

[sculpting]

However, would the Fi user then be able to approach the Fe user in their preferred manner, or would that feel totally like selling out? Could it be serving another greater value of theirs or just seem like only the convention they are using rather than the underlying meaning of that convention?

This is interesting as I sort figured it our last week...Just as esoteric and I hardwire logic as an Fi value, you could hardwire Fe on top of Fi as an Fi value. The actual Fi value is one of caring for the other person and loving them in a way that meets their needs....those needs are Fe needs.

Thus while the behavior may be Fe...it isnt violating Fi authenticity. Sorta like building a tower of logical premises that stack...as long as the Fe doesnt violate Fi principles, but rather supports them, then it is okay to use Fe...

When I do this with an Fe, I can suddenly say all the Fe phrases and it is totally okay, as that is what THEY NEED. I are learning to remold myself to meet their need. It is bizarre though as the tie to Fi becomes sort of faint...

 

[gromit]

No! Fe users (faithful or otherwise) do not just do what is expected of them with no underlying reasons. I am very frustrated by other Christians I see who really have no foundation for believing what they do other than that they were told to. I have arrived at my conclusions by observing others, by reading and discussing various stances and points of view with a variety of people and by personal experience. I don't debate in a Te way, but it doesn't mean that Fe users do not see the need for critical thinking. I am strongly against those who blindly follow a leader or minister and equate it with God's truth.

In my own ancestry, we have two branches of ancestry (Mennonite Germans and Scotch Presbyterians) who went on wild goose chases to Uzbekistan and New Zealand respectively because of following leaders like this. My mother, who is an ENFJ is the one in her family who was least likely to follow foolish people in the church just because they thought that they were speaking for God. This is not a Fe/Fi thing. I can see where debate to come to understand could be less preferred by some Fe users (particularly if they dislike adversarial discourse and no time to reflect before responding), but certainly that does not allow them to just accept what they are told they should because it is comfortable. That will be taken as very insulting by most Fe users!

(Incidentally as a disclaimer, I'm not upset at you, but I don't think this point can be stressed enough because it is not accurate).

I can see that my style of communicating or asking questions isn't particularly straightforward for you guys. I must fix that and am working on figuring out how. In the meantime though, I'm wondering about the answers to the questions I asked.

It seems to me that really the primary difference between Fe and Fi is that the Fe-users automatically pick up on social expectations and see things in terms of roles and obligations, while the Fi-users do not do so inherently and have to learn it almost consciously.

Does this seem accurate?

 

[Fidelia]

I do think Fe users feel more comfortable if they know what their role in an interaction is. (At least for me, I like to have determined in my mind what kind of relationship I have to the person I am interacting with). If I do see things in terms of obligations, it is only because it serves a greater good, not for the sake of the obligation/institution itself.

Some Fi users here have expressed that as they've gotten older they've learned a form of Fe, but that it is something that they have to do consciously and feels like being polite to them. For Fe users, that is not the case. It seems like a natural way of interacting.

 

[PeaceBaby]

This is interesting as I sort figured it our last week...Just as esoteric and I hardwire logic as an Fi value, you could hardwire Fe on top of Fi as an Fi value. The actual Fi value is one of caring for the other person and loving them in a way that meets their needs....those needs are Fe needs.

Thus while the behavior may be Fe...it isnt violating Fi authenticity.

For an Fi dom or aux, caring for others is the value. The way it gets expressed differs from person to person dependent upon how one assesses their individual composition. Customized, I suppose.

So myself, I keep an internal notebook (of sorts) cataloguing what each person needs. And the best ways to support them. Of course, in the external world, the outer manifestation can look a lot like Fe.

It's so hardwired to my values that to not do so, is to fail. It's tied to an internal competence, a moral obligation as it were.

 

[CzeCze]

It seems to me that really the primary difference between Fe and Fi is that the Fe-users automatically pick up on social expectations and see things in terms of roles and obligations, while the Fi-users do not do so inherently and have to learn it almost consciously.

Does this seem accurate?

Hmmm...I don't think that's primary difference but I do think that kind of 'social awareness' that Fe can give people can be a blind spot to Fi users. I think maybe that is another division/camps that Fi users fall into. Those who are very aware of the social contract and expectations ad acknowledge it, and those who are unaware/rebellious towards it.

Very interesting and helpful! Do Fi users ever accidentally trample each other's values, or are they likely to see where that would happen before it does happen and just steer clear?

Oh all the time, Fid. ALL the time.

I think another Fi user on the forum used a hilarious analogy of "two cats hissing at each other". I think that's more appropriate for the introverts. For extraverts, it's more like two angry lemurs chattering angrily at each other, running around and kicking dust up.

 

[Thalassa]

It seems to me that really the primary difference between Fe and Fi is that the Fe-users automatically pick up on social expectations and see things in terms of roles and obligations, while the Fi-users do not do so inherently and have to learn it almost consciously.

Does this seem accurate?

I know as someone with Fi, I feel like Fi metaphorically saved my life. I think that blending with the culture and family in which I was raised would have been a huge mistake and a detriment not only to my being, but the detriment of others. I still get a sick feeling even thinking about playing by some of my family's "rules."

As someone who lacks Ti, Fi is what allowed me to escape the ignorance and oppression of the sort of lifestyle in which I was raised. This is unfortunately what gives me such a strong Fi bias.

Perhaps if I had been raised in a more intellectual family, one that was more educated and less dysfunctional, perhaps I would have valued Fe much more at a younger age.

It's not that I don't have an appreciation for some members of my family, or for some aspects of the culture I was raised, but I'm very happy to not to be a cog in the wheel of that mess, seriously.

I think I do have a form of shadow Fe or pseudo-Fe which I have employed regularly since my childhood, seeing as that I was verbally abused and raised by very controlling people, as well as belonging to conservative Christian Southern churches, I very much learned to "behave myself" at a VERY young age. I was a very well-behaved child, and didn't even begin to act out in any way until my mid-teens, and I had good reason - unfortunately, I wish someone responsible outside of my family could have given me more guidance at that time, but oh well.

But I still maintain as an adult that certain behavior is absolutely either moral or practical in various situations, and it may well look like Fe, though I suppose my motives for practicing those Fe values are Fi? I can't really say. I don't know.

 

[CzeCze]

I think another Fi user on the forum used a hilarious analogy of "two cats hissing at each other". I think that's more appropriate for the introverts. For extraverts, it's more like two angry lemurs chattering angrily at each other, running around and kicking dust up.

Did no one read this?!!??

Did no one see how hilarious my analogies were?

My Fi will not be satisfied until others comment and tell me they too thought my analogies were humorous and accurate!

Suffer the wrath of my Fi!!!! Rawwwwr! :steam:

LOLOLOL.

No, but really.

 

[Thalassa]

Did no one read this?!!??

Did no one see how hilarious my analogies were?

My Fi will not be satisfied until others comment and tell me they too thought my analogies were humorous and accurate!

Suffer the wrath of my Fi!!!! Rawwwwr! :steam:

LOLOLOL.

No, but really.

lulz at lemurs

 

[Amargith]

Did no one read this?!!??

Did no one see how hilarious my analogies were?

My Fi will not be satisfied until others comment and tell me they too thought my analogies were humorous and accurate!

Suffer the wrath of my Fi!!!! Rawwwwr! :steam:

LOLOLOL.

No, but really.

I totally agree with the cat hissing. I just used cats and dogs to represent Fi and Fe in another thread.

Loved the lemur pic, but prefer the cat analogy

 

[Vamp]

Did no one read this?!!??

Did no one see how hilarious my analogies were?

My Fi will not be satisfied until others comment and tell me they too thought my analogies were humorous and accurate!

Suffer the wrath of my Fi!!!! Rawwwwr! :steam:

LOLOLOL.

No, but really.

lol. I think your analogies are humorous, accurate and insightful. They characterize things well.

Forgetting Fi and Fe for a sec and focusing on the I vs I part, I have a lot of introverted friends and they hide things (nothing big but the inconsequential things that make no difference when lied about just because they are not fond of people or mistrustful- I practice self preservation but when things don't matter.. ..it bothers me) and when they do take issue with something, they do it "at a sideways angle" and never come out directly, it's a passive dig or something intentionally vague. Not sure if it's an I thing (I know everyone does these things but I notice it a lot in introverts I know) but it drives me crazy.

I know as someone with Fi, I feel like Fi metaphorically saved my life. I think that blending with the culture and family in which I was raised would have been a huge mistake and a detriment not only to my being, but the detriment of others. I still get a sick feeling even thinking about playing by some of my family's "rules."

As someone who lacks Ti, Fi is what allowed me to escape the ignorance and oppression of the sort of lifestyle in which I was raised. This is unfortunately what gives me such a strong Fi bias.

Perhaps if I had been raised in a more intellectual family, one that was more educated and less dysfunctional, perhaps I would have valued Fe much more at a younger age.

It's not that I don't have an appreciation for some members of my family, or for some aspects of the culture I was raised, but I'm very happy to not to be a cog in the wheel of that mess, seriously.

I think I do have a form of shadow Fe or pseudo-Fe which I have employed regularly since my childhood, seeing as that I was verbally abused and raised by very controlling people, as well as belonging to conservative Christian Southern churches, I very much learned to "behave myself" at a VERY young age. I was a very well-behaved child, and didn't even begin to act out in any way until my mid-teens, and I had good reason - unfortunately, I wish someone responsible outside of my family could have given me more guidance at that time, but oh well.

But I still maintain as an adult that certain behavior is absolutely either moral or practical in various situations, and it may well look like Fe, though I suppose my motives for practicing those Fe values are Fi? I can't really say. I don't know.

This is me exactly right down to the location, values and distinction between that conflict and not caring for your family- I love them very much but I can't live that way. Except for the last part, I know my more practical behavior is Fe brought on by years of being beaten into my place by my conservative, black, southern family.

 

[skylights]

oh my gosh, so much to talk about!

Interesting, this could be true but to me if I compare myself to most ENFPs I know and from what a few have told me, they used to need people around them all the time but as they got older, they became much more introverted. Maybe it is the balance of the extroverted and introverted functions? I use my Ni and Fe a lot and around the same balance. The converse for the ENFP could be true. If they use Ne and Fi in close to equal amounts, they may need a lot of alone time to process things. Also, in the same ENFJ profile, it says ENFJs are one of the more reserved extroverts. For me, anyways, I tend to get overstimulated with people information and need time to analyze it or I get really crabby (this might not have anything to do with being an ENFJ though). Overall, your assessment sounds pretty good.

haha, i get overstimulated too. i can see it relating to being both NF and E. we do so much synthesizing, fantasizing, planning, etc. inside our own heads that when the external information is not necessarily pleasing it can become overwhelming and annoying.

as to balance, i have been a relative introvert (socially) for as long as i can remember, but i've also had well-used Fi for as long as i can remember. in fact, i've been using much more Ne only in recent years. and that all makes sense, given that more Fi corresponds to more introversion; more Ne corresponds to more extraversion.

In scenarios like this the Fi "self understanding" is really only a stopping point in subsequent Te suggestion of a resolution. So may seem to endlessly navel gaze, but with the objective of providing an external solution.

thanks for moving our posts!

as for this, absolutely. the Fi obsession always has a point beyond itself.

The predictions are not spontaneous arisings of new ideas like Ni...but instead brainstorming a series of new Ne potential paths.....then by looking back at Si...predicting which will be the best path forward. (Odd...Si gives the predictive power....damn....) It isnt simply a typical ability of humans to do this, as most humans cannot make the Ne connections in the first place, thus cannot see all the potential paths forward that we can.

Hmmmm.....if Ne seeks infinity and Ni goes to 1, its almost like they meet up at the point where....everything, everywhere is connected and thus has become one.

yap yap yap!

QTF

hen to pan; all is one and one is all. it's the power of iNtuition.

i imagine that, correspondingly, the power of Sensing is to see things for exactly what they are. both are terrifically powerful - and rather stunted without a measure of the other.

The Fi gets hurt, offended, angry because there was no *negative motive* or intent and doesn't understand why the Fe is maligning their character.

agree SO MUCH. it feels like an attack on me, on something that i am, for something that was not a part of me - how my actions turned out was not necessarily ever part of what i envisioned. so it feels like an unfair and unnecessary criticism.

Why do I ask this? I ask because I don't see any other way to respond to some Fe criticisms while remaining true to my Fi values. And, I would really like to come up with another response because my default Fi response doesn't seem to get me anywhere with Fe dominant / auxiliary users (viz. INFJs and ENFJs).

[...]

So aren't such clashes between Fe and Fi users almost preordained because Fe and Fi users do not recognize each others' moral authority?

i don't really understand the religion metaphor, but personally, it helps me to consider the intent of the person speaking, rather than the way of communication. i've learned this from my Fe dom mother, whose method of communication can feel overbearing to me sometimes, but her intent is to help me. i almost try to "jump" over my automatic Fi-ouch and dive into the heart (purpose) of whatever we're talking about, and that makes it much easier, because then we are on common ground.

as for moral authority -- exactly. our problem is that our moral authorities are in very different places and come out expressed in very different ways, but we both feel like we're Right. if we can both get over ourselves and find the common Feeling ground of caring for one another and recognizing that there is a certain social protocol that needs to take place simply because it is hardwired into our brains as humans, then we don't have to have conflict.

No! Fe users (faithful or otherwise) do not just do what is expected of them with no underlying reasons.

agree, i don't see that at all from the NFJs i know.

[bear analogy]

[...]

I realize that the problem for Fi users is somewhat that they feel that no one has the one Right way to do things and that it is presumptuous for someone to believe they do. In Fe users eyes, they are trying to prevent trouble for you that seems needless and at cross purposes to your ultimate goal.

that's really interesting, fidelia. i feel like i check maybe a 3-foot radius for bears and then dive in, lol.

i feel like you're right about the Right thing - and even sometimes for Fi, i don't always see conflict as that much of a bad thing. it's not really preferable, but it can shake things up that wouldn't be uncovered otherwise. i think also my problem is i wonder how you can know what will happen. which is Ni, of course. i have an NFJ friend who jokes about how she is "always right," which is funny because she almost always is. so it can be infuriating when someone tells you there are bears when all you really see is a few shadows along the quickest path to your objective.

finally, what i always question is whether the conflict is worth reaching my goal faster, and sometimes i feel like it is. if things are set Right again, then harmony will occur naturally. but if we try to keep harmony while things are Wrong, Wrong naturally subverts harmony. it feels like a losing battle.

My Fi is so flexible that I will redefine it, as my ultimate goal is love for the other, so if it is something silly, I will often pull an ENFP chameleon and adapt to their needs-but I dont think most enfps are quite like that.

hm, yes. and i think it's almost because i'm so flexible in so many issues that when someone has struck a core issue it's very frustrating. it feels like i've been very compromising (and i don't mind at all, it makes me happy too) - but that at a certain point, the other person needs to give too.

sometimes with Fe it's hard to see that they've been giving for my sake too, but in a more seemingly directive way. i've had trouble with my best friend like this and we've argued and then she's pointed out what she does for me, and i didn't even understand it, because sometimes it felt like her guidance was very self-serving (and sometimes it was, but not usually). i've been learning to give others the benefit of the doubt even when they've tripped a Fi value.

2) Get Fi user to try to see it from the other person's POV. I have found this is the best way to go about it. And also, very clearly but in a 'soft-edged' way tell the Fi user how ridiculous their stance is. I usually use humor or gentle nudges. Or if that's pointless or hasn't worked, I just get very explicit.

Ne naturally looks for every possibility, so it's not generally hard to get a Fi user to see your way. and Fi wants to connect, so really, it should be easy for us to see it through another light.

but the key is making sure there's no perceived attack on identity. especially with Fe, explaining everything out explicitly is really helpful. i get particularly upset when i feel like someone is cutting me down or using me (like i've felt with my NFJ bff), and laying things out on the table makes it clear that you're not.

You have to understand too, that when an Fi user gets 'really mad' because their value has been tripped or they feel disrespected, they really don't care in that moment whether the relationship is sacrificed or how you feel. The universe closes into a tight non-peripheral circle around their heads. In other words, there is tunnel vision. I'm pretty sure the 'tunnel vision' is common to the population regardless of type, it's just that with an Fi user, it gets wrapped up in their emotional history and the matter at hand is all INCREDIBLY and heavily imbued with a lot of ethical/philosophical/personal significance. The kind that will make you hyperventilate in public.

[...]

PS The "STFU and walk away" thing - I'm opposite. Normally I will say my peace and bounce, but when I'm really pissed or have my Fi really trampled, I cannot help but just go for it. Otherwise, it will eat me up inside and I'd rather yell at someone else for 3/5/15 minutes than have the equivalent of my psyche and inner child yelling at me for the rest of the day or week.

yeahhh. it becomes all about my personal identity and beliefs and stuff, and that's where it gets really messy. it goes straight into ideals and the relationship is totally blown off. i was stunned once when a friend of mind pointed out that i said things in argument that were very hurtful and she was still mad at me for them - i was like, but it was argument. i was just defending. it's not an attack on you, it was just to protect me. and then i realized how insensitive that was! it was eye-opening.

and about STFU, ditto. if i STFU i go totally crazy. i need to Te it through - if i don't do it then, my conscience eats me alive for a longggg time.

Very interesting and helpful! Do Fi users ever accidentally trample each other's values, or are they likely to see where that would happen before it does happen and just steer clear?

actually, i feel like i get very annoyed with Fi users who are emphatically expressing their beliefs - much more so than Fe users. because sometimes Fi does get tunnel vision and is all NO NO NO NO NO NOT ME, and it's obvious from the outside that it's rather short-sighted, especially generalizations. i typically try to ignore it and let someone else handle it, but if i do clash, i feel like i get very Te about it - that the best way to show another that their values are not necessarily appropriate/accurate/helpful is via dry logic combined with Fe. maybe i'm in the minority but i think i have some Fe aspects as Fi values.

What do you suppose would happen if a Fe user tried approaching the issue the way another Fi user would, but with their sense of values? Would it get weird? I think it would feel to us like we were being quite rude, but perhaps it would actually work better. However, would the Fi user then be able to approach the Fe user in their preferred manner, or would that feel totally like selling out? Could it be serving another greater value of theirs or just seem like only the convention they are using rather than the underlying meaning of that convention?

To me, the reason for using certain methods of approaching someone is not because I am so attached to that method as the right way. It is because as an underlying value, I want to be heard by them, or I want them to feel respected, or I don't want to make them feel rejected, or I want to allow them to talk about something that matters to them etc. It is serving a greating value of mine. When I object to a Fi user's way of dealing with things, it is because they are stepping on one of those values - showing kindness to someone else, making them feel loved or cared for etc, much in the same way that you might object publicly when you felt someone was being unfairly treated. It isn't trying to control you (just as you objecting publicly isn't being dramatic), but rather that I am trying to stand up for someone or something that I believe in that I feel is being trampled.

both, i think. i think we could both learn from using each others' strategies. if i object to Fe, it's almost always because i feel they are manipulating - directing me in ways for purposes i am not aware of and don't understand. that feels very unfair to me - because how do they know what is right for me? also, i feel like it is everyone's right and prerogative to speak up for themselves, and i don't think people should always be directed in a conversation or to have someone else prompt them. the way i approach others is very open and flexible, and i try to let them take the lead.

on the other hand, using Fe, i can communicate more easily and make a more comfortable atmosphere, and be more aware of how everyone would react to something and how it would affect the whole group. the Fe dom/aux i know are brilliant at making others feel welcome in conversation and easing others through difficult or awkward situations. they're good facilitators and are great at keeping group conversation focused around a topic when it's needed. they are excellent hosts and hostesses as well.

i think the point for me is that Fe and Fi are both after the exact same thing in the end - love and connection - and as such, it's not selling out to use either strategy. it's just more unfamiliar and will feel uncomfortable at first.

I can see that my style of communicating or asking questions isn't particularly straightforward for you guys. I must fix that and am working on figuring out how. In the meantime though, I'm wondering about the answers to the questions I asked.

i don't always understand your questions, lol. i don't know if it has anything to do with type, it might just have to do with the way i interpret. also i think i get distracted by things other people say that i want to write about too. no offense or anything, i just think sometimes the conversation flows away from your questions and they seem less important. it's not to devalue your questions or anything, or you... there are just so many things to talk about!

In reply to both these responses, I'd like to say that I very much appreciate Fe-users pointing out things that I'm oblivious to, that I've forgotten about, like keeping me from getting bear-mauled. What irks me is the way in which they do it. If they do it in an informative way, without any undertones, I truly love it. If however the tone clearly suggests that I clearly have the sense of responsibility of a child for not noticing myself and being an idiot, that's when I feel the need to blatantly ignore them and make it clear that they really don't have any say over who I am or what I do. Everyone can make mistakes. And they aint that perfect themselves. I also cannot stand hypocrisy or the need to feel better about yourself by knocking someone else a notch down. So I grow resentful and rebellious and will do *anything* I can (without harming myself or others) to escape their social control and prove them the opposite.

yes, exactly. i LOVE Fe advice sometimes - when it's clearly for my sake. i welcome and appreciate it.

but when it sounds like it's being given to cut me down or to quietly further the other person's agenda, that's when it's offensive.

And if you know it is in their nature, if it's their weakness to forget stuff, or be up in their head, you do *not* scold them when they're clearly trying but still mess up somehow. You help them. And you understand and forgive. Accept them for who they are. Yes, you can help them improve, but no, you *do not* have the right to blame them for their flaws as you yourself have your own flaws that you should fix first.

right, exactly.

And since they both recognize each others right to be who they are, they will give each other space (much like cats in a colony timeshare on the common goods so they don't have to be near one another but can still live together), enough space, not to irk one another.

[...]

If corevalues are being tripped in one, the other Fi-user will accomodate that person as they figure out what *exactly* set it off (providing it does not, as before, curb an important freedom-need of the other Fi-user). The willingness to listen to the other is what calms down Fi. The feeling that the other is, without judgement or expectation trying to calmly flesh out what happened, and truly wants to understand, is what Fi needs. As pointed out before, the core of respect and friendship is the fact that you make an effort to understand *who the person is*. And you do that by active listening, asking open questions without making assumptions. You can at some point go: so, what you're saying is: [insert sommation of info], but it had better be only a summing up of the facts, and not a conclusion+judgement.

And then...something magical happens. The second you get that right, you can judge. You can think what you want. You can disagree with it, presenting your view on it, you can tell them it's not for you, as long as you can demonstrate that you've actually grasped the pov correctly. The second you understand, the second that I can tell that you truly grasp what I'm on about, that you can see my pov, I can totally understand it being immoral, unethical or whatever it is yo uthink of it. I will still not allow you to impose your views on me, but I will respect your pov on the matter and will minimize the behavior that irks you so, around you, *becoz I care for you*.

But if you judge before you actually grasp the perspective, your judgement will be overruled. It's invalid at that point as it is based on incomplete info and therefore corrupted in my eyes. If you keep to a faulty pov, it becomes a sore topic. You're not making an effort to understand the way it's meant, and therefore I cannot accept your opinion or respect it. And that *will* show in the way I relate to you on that topic.

As for the other way around: how to tell a Fi-user to back off.

The best way is to ask for their understanding. Make them aware that something is emotionally off with you and they will pause to make space to figure it out. At that point, the best thing to do is explain to them your pov and why certain words or phrases make you cringe. Speak in 'I experience this this way', instead of 'Your way of being..' and flesh out how things would work for you. Once you do, realize that the Fi-user will adjust to what you prefer becoz they care for you, especially if you didn't hit a Fi-value in them, they'll be very adaptable normally. However, don't expect them to change their behavior with anyone else. Fi-users create a bond with everyone, formed on what that person needs, the fi-values they hold and what the extend of their bond is..not a general approach. It doesn't mean that we're 'lying to you' or just 'pretending to get you off of our backs' when we adjust, it actually is a sign of love as this is how we build a bond with someone, figuring out the perfect agreement that makes us both happy and comfortable.

agree with all of this

For extraverts, it's more like two angry lemurs chattering angrily at each other, running around and kicking dust up.

LOL yeahhh

I know as someone with Fi, I feel like Fi metaphorically saved my life. I think that blending with the culture and family in which I was raised would have been a huge mistake and a detriment not only to my being, but the detriment of others. I still get a sick feeling even thinking about playing by some of my family's "rules."

ugh, yes. my family plays awful games of not talking to one another or trying to 1-up one another and just really stupid shit like that. my Fe dom mother interacts very kindly with them; i've occasionally told them off. and while i think she holds the family together better (and she does have pretty good Fi), i'm still rather proud of the look on my grandpa's face when 12-year-old me told him he was a racist and that he was wrong.

whew

sometimes i feel like people need a good wake-up-call - facing that bear in spite of upsetting harmony. i respect Fe highly and am trying to develop mine, but at the same time, Fi has its place too. it's not just self-righteous and explosive. its ultimate goal is a better world for everyone.