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Climate Alarmists Are Doing it Wrong

SearchingforPeace

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Global-Warming Alarmists, You'''re Doing It Wrong - Bloomberg View

This lesson from economics is essentially what the "lukewarmists" bring to discussions about climate change. They concede that all else equal, more carbon dioxide will cause the climate to warm. But, they say that warming is likely to be mild unless you use a model which assumes large positive feedback effects. Because climate scientists, like the macroeconomists, can’t run experiments where they test one variable at a time, predictions of feedback effects involve a lot of theory and guesswork. I do not denigrate theory and guesswork; they are a vital part of advancing the sum of human knowledge. But when you’re relying on theory and guesswork, you always want to leave plenty of room for the possibility that your model's output is (how shall I put this?) … wrong.

Naturally, proponents of climate-change models have welcomed the lukewarmists' constructive input by carefully considering their points and by advancing counterarguments firmly couched in the scientific method.

No, of course I’m just kidding. The reaction to these mild assertions is often to brand the lukewarmists “deniers” and treat them as if what they were saying was morally and logically equivalent to suggesting that the Holocaust never happened.

...

The arguments about global warming too often sound more like theology than science. Oh, the word “science” gets thrown around a great deal, but it's cited as a sacred authority, not a fallible process that staggers only awkwardly and unevenly toward the truth, with frequent lurches in the wrong direction. I cannot count the number of times someone has told me that they believe in “the science,” as if that were the name of some omniscient god who had delivered us final answers written in stone. For those people, there can be only two categories in the debate: believers and unbelievers. Apostles and heretics.

This is, of course, not how science works, and people who treat it this way are not showing their scientific bona fides; they are violating the very thing in which they profess such deep belief. One does not believe in “science” as an answer; science is a way of asking questions. At any given time, that method produces a lot of ideas, some of which are correct, and many of which are false, in part or in whole.

.....

Read the whole thing...... it includes a nice explanation of the pitfalls of modelling.....
 

Thalassa

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Why do you keep doing this? Really? Does it scare you so much you deny it out of terror?

Because Bloomberg is a finance/politics mag, it should be in the political section, this isn't a reputable unbiased scientific source.
 

Poki

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This is, of course, not how science works, and people who treat it this way are not showing their scientific bona fides; they are violating the very thing in which they profess such deep belief. One does not believe in “science” as an answer; science is a way of asking questions. At any given time, that method produces a lot of ideas, some of which are correct, and many of which are false, in part or in whole.

Love that paragraph. When you believe in science it becomes religious. Its only when you understand the science when it stays true to its nature.


Oh, the word “science” gets thrown around a great deal, but it's cited as a sacred authority, not a fallible process that staggers only awkwardly and unevenly toward the truth, with frequent lurches in the wrong direction. I cannot count the number of times someone has told me that they believe in “the science,” as if that were the name of some omniscient god who had delivered us final answers written in stone. For those people, there can be only two categories in the debate: believers and unbelievers. Apostles and heretics.
 

SearchingforPeace

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Why do you keep doing this? Really? Does it scare you so much you deny it out of terror?

Because Bloomberg is a finance/politics mag, it should be in the political section, this isn't a reputable unbiased scientific source.

Lol, did you read the article? Or did it just hit too close to home? The only fear I have related to climate change is that draconian policies based upon weak science will be enacted that will do nothing for climate change but will serve to further damage the economy and to semd off money on various boondoggles.

I actually have zero fear that climate change, if we do absolutely nothing to addrees it, will cause anything more than a minor inconvenience.

Like all issues, addrressing them is always a political and economic issue. Bloomberg is a reputable news source. If you don't like these articles, feel free to not read them.

Or better yet, post articles supporting your own position.
 

Silent

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Let's ignore climate issues and global warming all together and think about this...
taking care of the planet is just the right thing to do.

Sorry that is preachy and mean, but I am tired of the debate and think a clean planet is just good for all. I like picking up litter and putting it away and recycling.:shrug:
 

Thalassa

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Lol, did you read the article? Or did it just hit too close to home? The only fear I have related to climate change is that draconian policies based upon weak science will be enacted that will do nothing for climate change but will serve to further damage the economy and to semd off money on various boondoggles.

I actually have zero fear that climate change, if we do absolutely nothing to addrees it, will cause anything more than a minor inconvenience.

Like all issues, addrressing them is always a political and economic issue. Bloomberg is a reputable news source. If you don't like these articles, feel free to not read them.

Or better yet, post articles supporting your own position.

No it didn't hit close to home. Only 6 percent of American scientists identify as Republican, for a very good reason. Because people like you post politicized right wing Bloomberg articles which should be in the political section, in science, so conservatives can continue to nurture their delusional view of climate science.

I'm starting to get bored with you in particular doing this though, the way you rail against it so hard tells me that deep down it actually scares you. If you really didn't care, you wouldn't be posting these articles all the time.

Anyway, so Alaska is experiencing the hottest spring on record, since records began, and the earth's poles are shifting because of polar ice melting, but you just go on with this, if it makes you feel better, but it's pretty disgusting you're attempting to infect others with a political article and call it science.

I think the mods should move this thread.
 

SearchingforPeace

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No it didn't hit close to home. Only 6 percent of American scientists identify as Republican, for a very good reason. Because people like you post politicized right wing Bloomberg articles which should be in the political section, in science, so conservatives can continue to nurture their delusional view of climate science.

I'm starting to get bored with you in particular doing this though, the way you rail against it so hard tells me that deep down it actually scares you. If you really didn't care, you wouldn't be posting these articles all the time.

Anyway, so Alaska is experiencing the hottest spring on record, since records began, and the earth's poles are shifting because of polar ice melting, but you just go on with this, if it makes you feel better, but it's pretty disgusting you're attempting to infect others with a political article and call it science.

I think the mods should move this thread.

Lol, you just love projecting. You are so afraid of climate change, something you seem to lack more than a superficial understanding of, that you want draconiam change and to shut up anyone who disagrees.

Clearly, you believe in science rather than understand science. You have faith in the climate scientists and government officials.

True science welcomes heterodox opinions, because that is the only way we get change in science. Someone has to get up and say, "Hey, I got a new idea!! Come see if it works for you, too..."

So, this is a science article on a science subject. But you are welcome to not read my threads.....
 

Thalassa

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Lol, you just love projecting. You are so afraid of climate change, something you seem to lack more than a superficial understanding of, that you want draconiam change and to shut up anyone who disagrees.

Clearly, you believe in science rather than understand science. You have faith in the climate scientists and government officials.

True science welcomes heterodox opinions, because that is the only way we get change in science. Someone has to get up and say, "Hey, I got a new idea!! Come see if it works for you, too..."

So, this is a science article on a science subject. But you are welcome to not read my threads.....

This is an article from a finance mag. They have a political agenda directly tied to economics, it's not a "scientifically heterodox" view and I'm sure I've studied environmental science to a more extensive level than yourself, though, no, I don't work at NASA and my preferred field is hands on ecology.

Native tribes have been observing the destruction of the earth for decades, if anything I think you're either so afraid you grasp at any shred of denial which will soothe you, or you are attempting to subconsciously abate some sort of white man guilt or make justifications for your own participation in a capitalist death culture that's destroying the earth we live on - I think corporate capitalism by far is one of the most ridiculous political justifications for denying climate science, which is why it's more common in the US than any other first world nation, where people don't get their "science" from finance magazines.
 

Thalassa

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Let's ignore climate issues and global warming all together and think about this...
taking care of the planet is just the right thing to do.

Sorry that is preachy and mean, but I am tired of the debate and think a clean planet is just good for all. I like picking up litter and putting it away and recycling.:shrug:

If people would sincerely focus on reduce, reuse, recycle and hands on issues like clean air, clean water, and land management, ironically the deniers still don't have a leg to stand on...because all of the things polluting our air and water, or wasting land, and the one material that can only be recycled in limited ways for limited times (plastic) being reduced and eliminated would also decrease global warming factors.
 

dramaticoperate

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Let's ignore climate issues and global warming all together and think about this...
taking care of the planet is just the right thing to do.

Sorry that is preachy and mean, but I am tired of the debate and think a clean planet is just good for all. I like picking up litter and putting it away and recycling.:shrug:

I don't think it is preachy and I agree 100%. If you think about it, this is the only planet we have. It's not like a village that you can move out of when the neighbors become too nasty or the place turns too trashy. This is the only place we can live in. If we do find another planet that is live-able - it will most likely not happen in our lifetime :mad: so, why not take care of it and give back at the same time? Forget about what science or those other people / organizations with hidden agendas - just use plain ole logic and you'll come to the same conclusion :) - just my thoughts on this :)
 

Thalassa

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Went to The Los Angeles Museum of Natural History at USC today.

Global warming is still real.

The destruction of the rain forests is still due to animal agriculture.

Humans still didn't exist in the warmer earth Era with Dinosaurs.

[MENTION=25377]SearchingforPeace[/MENTION] is still wrong and grasping at straws.
 

Thalassa

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I don't think it is preachy and I agree 100%. If you think about it, this is the only planet we have. It's not like a village that you can move out of when the neighbors become too nasty or the place turns too trashy. This is the only place we can live in. If we do find another planet that is live-able - it will most likely not happen in our lifetime :mad: so, why not take care of it and give back at the same time? Forget about what science or those other people / organizations with hidden agendas - just use plain ole logic and you'll come to the same conclusion :) - just my thoughts on this :)

It's not preachy or mean, and the people who mostly need to get yelled at are self centered Americans or people who are delusional that they should get to experience some kind of 18th -19th century America in other countries without consequences. Mostly sociopaths, just like 100-200 years ago.

Unfortunately with the bizarre leaning towards right wing libertarianism, convincing these individuals of their profound mental illness won't be easy, even with slides of Beijing and statistics from Brazil, they don't really care as long as they have their Big Macs. I'm curious to know if such depths of spiritual depravity have ever existed in the history of man.
 

SearchingforPeace

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Went to The Los Angeles Museum of Natural History at USC today.

Global warming is still real.

The destruction of the rain forests is still due to animal agriculture.

Humans still didn't exist in the warmer earth Era with Dinosaurs.

[MENTION=25377]SearchingforPeace[/MENTION] is still wrong and grasping at straws.

lol....

I loved the Museums there as a kid. Went about 5 years ago and had a lot of fun....

Have a nice night.
 

Thalassa

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lol....

I loved the Museums there as a kid. Went about 5 years ago and had a lot of fun....

Have a nice night.

It's really sad you are so blase about scientists working for the betterment of mankind. I'd be predisposed to call you anti-science because of your disregard for academic level of global environmental history and research. I'm sure when you were five most of the mammals in Africa weren't either endangered, threatened or vulnerable, or if they were, you didn't have the cognitive skills to comprehend anything beyond "look Dinosaurs are big and cool!"

The visits when you are five are meant to spark a lifelong love of science, not as something to be disregarded as equal to playing with clay or crayons.

In fact you sound so foolish and egotistical it is very sad. If you actually cared about science, you'd be concerned about the 6th mass extinction instead of pooh-poohing it. It would be really tragic if you have children or grandchildren whom I'm trying to help.
 

SearchingforPeace

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It's really sad you are so blase about scientists working for the betterment of mankind. I'd be predisposed to call you anti-science because of your disregard for academic level of global environmental history and research. I'm sure when you were five most of the mammals in Africa weren't either endangered, threatened or vulnerable, or if they were, you didn't have the cognitive skills to comprehend anything beyond "look Dinosaurs are big and cool!"

The visits when you are five are meant to spark a lifelong love of science, not as something to be disregarded as equal to playing with clay or crayons.

In fact you sound so foolish and egotistical it is very sad. If you actually cared about science, you'd be concerned about the 6th mass extinction instead of pooh-poohing it. It would be really tragic if you have children or grandchildren whom I'm trying to help.

I have a great love of science and understand it well enough to read and understand pretty advanced research. As such, I trust my ability to understand, independent of the fear mongering.

I have seen enough attempts to scare in my lifetime that I have heard the boy cry wolf too much on climate.

I trust in humanity's ability to adapt and learn.

Scare mongering isn't productive. The ends do not justify the means. Which is exactly what this article I posted months ago says.....
 

Thalassa

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I have a great love of science and understand it well enough to read and understand pretty advanced research. As such, I trust my ability to understand, independent of the fear mongering.

I have seen enough attempts to scare in my lifetime that I have heard the boy cry wolf too much on climate.

I trust in humanity's ability to adapt and learn.

Scare mongering isn't productive. The ends do not justify the means. Which is exactly what this article I posted months ago says.....

You don't listen to 97 percent consensus of scientists, and call quoting a finace mag "advanced research."

Sorry, I'm not interested in leaving the fate of humanity to fat old drunks.
 

ChocolateMoose123

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[MENTION=25377]SearchingforPeace[/MENTION]

Curious. It's one thing not to believe in climate change but what specifically is lacking in proof for acceptance of it?

I know you don't agree with the models. So what are the models not utilizing? What aspects of the models do you disagree with?

If you have specifics that would help. I just see a broad knock down without a why it should be discredited.

I mean, convince me you're correct, more so than they are wrong, so to speak.
 

Poki

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[MENTION=25377]SearchingforPeace[/MENTION]

Curious. It's one thing not to believe in climate change but what specifically is lacking in proof for acceptance of it?

I know you don't agree with the models. So what are the models not utilizing? What aspects of the models do you disagree with?

If you have specifics that would help. I just see a broad knock down without a why it should be discredited.

I mean, convince me you're correct, more so than they are wrong, so to speak.

i think its more of a "the sky is falling" technique that ones who challenge but still believe in science have issues with. prove the world is gonna end from it or that humans will die off, or that we as nature are unadatable to the point that this is a "our children will not be around unless we jump ship to extremism".

most of us that dont believe its a "crisis" are usually for improvement, cleaner air, less pollution. but dont feel like its a life or death situation. we have so much other stuff to worry about that its a blip on the radar just like all the other blips that we need to work on.

from what i remember SFP is not against global warming, but like me, against the extreme "the sky is falling" push.

hence the title "climate alarmists are doing it wrong" and the posts from Thalasa show exactly what they do that isnt working on majority and why they have to "fight" so kmuch.
 

ChocolateMoose123

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i think its more of a "the sky is falling" technique that ones who challenge but still believe in science have issues with. prove the world is gonna end from it or that humans will die off, or that we as nature are unadatable to the point that this is a "our children will not be around unless we jump ship to extremism".

most of us that dont believe its a "crisis" are usually for improvement, cleaner air, less pollution. but dont feel like its a life or death situation. we have so much other stuff to worry about that its a blip on the radar just like all the other blips that we need to work on.

from what i remember SFP is not against global warming, but like me, against the extreme "the sky is falling" push.

Oh. Ok then. That's not really being against climate change. But then why not just say that rather than try to debunk everything? It's not making the best argument for distinguishing differences.

Just thinking aloud. Ok. If that is the case, which scientific studies ARE credible is a better question?
 

ZNP-TBA

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[MENTION=25377]SearchingforPeace[/MENTION]

Curious. It's one thing not to believe in climate change but what specifically is lacking in proof for acceptance of it?

I know you don't agree with the models. So what are the models not utilizing? What aspects of the models do you disagree with?

If you have specifics that would help. I just see a broad knock down without a why it should be discredited.

I mean, convince me you're correct, more so than they are wrong, so to speak.

None of the models I've seen explicitly predict catastrophe in just a few very short decades. I don't think anyone here disagrees with climate change happening (alarmists often conflate skepticism with outright 'denial' in order to appear to be more reasonable than the skeptic - strawman essentially). I think most people, on the Right and Left, accept that man-made pollution has some degree of influence (the precise degree is not settled science yet) but I think the biggest rift is the alarmism itself. It's the doomsayers that scream the 'revelation' from Patmos and the only way we can save the planet, ourselves, our children, and life on the planet is if we surrender a significant degree of freedom to international governmental organizations not directly accountable to regular citizens in the different countries of the world.

IMO alarmism has actually done climate change activism a great disservice. The bully tactics of the alarmists and the witch hunt-like admonishment of 'deniers' has repelled more ordinary people from what would otherwise be a worthy cause. I can see no scenario where having a high regard for the cleanliness of the environment is actually a bad thing. But this ' agree with me or be doomed stupid denier' attitude is just static and screechy noise that has no place in civil public discourse.
 
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