Censorship...

[Red Memories]

So this is a growing issue, especially within the "arts" field, is a sort of "censorship" of thought. Or the "requirement" of someone of a community to be in there to meet representation, or otherwise be considered racist and etc.

If we allow a certain degree of censorship, where exactly would this stop?
Who's idea of "censorship" would be correct?

One of the greatest privileges we have in the USA is freedom of speech. More and more, from both sides, this "freedom" is being violated. Trump should not tell people they cannot protest this or that, but people also shouldn't be saying I can't watch a movie because it depicted blacks negatively in some scene.

I am curious what your thoughts and stances are on this growing issue. Because it seems more people want a sort of censorship.

 

[Schrödinger's Name]

I'd like to hear more specific examples (since I don't really see/recognize the problem, probably because I don't do shit).

 

[Red Memories]

I'd like to hear more specific examples (since I don't really see/recognize the problem, probably because I don't do shit).

So firsthand, to be clear, it is stated within the bill of rights, the first amendment, that we are allowed freedom of speech. This often correlates to the right to actually discuss a dislike of something governmental, the president, etc.
However, it is suggested that obscenity is not protected, and a private corporation can also choose to keep employees on duty from stating certain things and etc. You however also have the right to boycott a business or etc. which goes against something you believe in. It also protects the media to a degree.

So the issue arising now I think, is, who decides what exactly is obscene or not? Here are some minor examples:
Very recently, Gone with the Wind is not going to be shown within theaters. This is a movie historically centered within the South near civil war times. the story itself is not about slavery or etc, but depicts slavery. Some streaming companies are also removing the movie from services either temporarily to create a disclaimer or otherwise.
The TV show "Friends" is being chastised for having an all white main cast.
Non-black stars being cancelled for old messages surfacing with them using the N word as a joke. I.E. Camila Cabello.
The author of Divergent, wrote a new book series, first book titled Carve the Mark, and was accused of racism for her depictions of the tribal people.

For the other side examples:
The Dixie Chicks came out against George W. Bush for his war policies, and they were the original "cancelled" stars, as it destroyed their careers for a long time. They were told to shut up and sing.
Kathy Griffin did a photoshoot where she held a made Trump head, as if she decapitated him, and she lost a lot from that ordeal.
Donald Trump basically trying to say Colin Kaepernick doesn't have the right to take a knee during the national anthem. We won't get into the business aspect of that, just Trump's negativity here.

so where does this sort of censoring end? should we censor at all? how should we filter it so that it doesn't become radicalized to the left or right?

 

[Luminous]

I do not think that, as an example, HBO not airing Gone With the Wind is harmful censorship. You can still watch that movie, elsewhere. They are a private company and can do what they want in regards to what they offer their customers. That movie isn't being burned on bonfires by the government, every copy isn't being destroyed, it's not illegal to watch it.

There's censorship on this forum. People can't post racist or sexist or homophobic insults. Not all censorship is bad. I don't think snuff films or porn involving children should be legal. I'm glad for that censorship.

 

[anticlimatic]

It's inherently authoritarian and precedes the death of psychological and spiritual advancement. I don't understand how anyone could advocate for any of it. How else do we learn what we like unless we are allowed to hear what we do not? I always think of those videos from North Korea after Kim died of all the citizens wailing and crying for the loss of their tyrannical despot. That's what it leads to. No individual thoughts, no individual feelings. Just borg-like lockstep marching on a mental emotional and spiritual level. If you had told me 20 years ago that the left would become the new authoritarians of the 21st century I never would have believed it- back then it was still the religious right censoring images of homosexuality, profanity, and general nudity. How did we get here? I read 1984 when I was a teenager and threw it across the street when I finished it. We are now living it in real time, and nowhere near enough people are heeding the alarm bells. We are now even re-writing (not just altering) dictionary definitions in ministry of truth fashion:

Merriam-Webster is Rewriting Its Definition of Racism. Should Teachers Change Theirs, Too? - Teaching Now - Education Week Teacher

Where is this shit coming from? Why does anyone support it? Why isn't anyone standing against it? For most of my youth, into my early 20s (early 2000s) I felt the upward trajectory of american philosophical and spiritual progress (actual progressiveness) moving under my feet. Then somewhere around Bush's second term everything stopped and began receding. I thought maybe Obama would course correct based on his pre-election speeches, but his era just accelerated the downward trend. Now here we are. Rewriting history, rewriting the dictionary, and canceling everyone who ever had an original unapproved-by-the-system thought.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

I remember after 9/11, there was a lot of censorship, then, too. Stuff would get pulled for showing the Twin Towers, or even just having explosions.

Lots of pictures of flags, though.

Where is this shit coming from? Why does anyone support it? Why isn't anyone standing against it? For most of my youth, into my early 20s (early 2000s) I felt the upward trajectory of american philosophical and spiritual progress (actual progressiveness) moving under my feet. Then somewhere around Bush's second term everything stopped and began receding.

You're off by a few years there, buddy. Maybe that's what happens when there's bipartisan consensus on a bullshit war. But that's where being ruled primarily by fear gets you, and also why conservatism is a cancerous ideology, if you can even call it an ideology and not just emotional hysteria.

We're an empire in decline and we need to face the fact. Trump can't make America "Great" again, and the reason is that he's just proof of the fact that we're in decline. Reality TV shows, cable news, and education and science and technology defunding have turned us into a nation of morons, which means that we're incapable, collectively, of doing anything that might reverse that decline. The best case scenario is that we become like the social democracies of former empires in Western Europe, which is something I'm ok with because personally I'm not big on empires.

You backed the wrong horse and you're going to spend the rest of your life seeing the consequences (not that the alternative was that much better; it would have just slowed the decline rather than reversed it). Clinton would have been similar to Obama; she would have sound enough judgement to do things to slow the decline, but not enough vision to actually reverse it. We can tell this because her message was "America is already great" when in fact, it's rotten at the core.

 

[ceecee]

It's inherently authoritarian and precedes the death of psychological and spiritual advancement. I don't understand how anyone could advocate for any of it. How else do we learn what we like unless we are allowed to hear what we do not? I always think of those videos from North Korea after Kim died of all the citizens wailing and crying for the loss of their tyrannical despot. That's what it leads to. No individual thoughts, no individual feelings. Just borg-like lockstep marching on a mental emotional and spiritual level. If you had told me 20 years ago that the left would become the new authoritarians of the 21st century I never would have believed it- back then it was still the religious right censoring images of homosexuality, profanity, and general nudity. How did we get here? I read 1984 when I was a teenager and threw it across the street when I finished it. We are now living it in real time, and nowhere near enough people are heeding the alarm bells. We are now even re-writing (not just altering) dictionary definitions in ministry of truth fashion:

Merriam-Webster is Rewriting Its Definition of Racism. Should Teachers Change Theirs, Too? - Teaching Now - Education Week Teacher

Where is this shit coming from? Why does anyone support it? Why isn't anyone standing against it? For most of my youth, into my early 20s (early 2000s) I felt the upward trajectory of american philosophical and spiritual progress (actual progressiveness) moving under my feet. Then somewhere around Bush's second term everything stopped and began receding. I thought maybe Obama would course correct based on his pre-election speeches, but his era just accelerated the downward trend. Now here we are. Rewriting history, rewriting the dictionary, and canceling everyone who ever had an original unapproved-by-the-system thought.

The left is bad and the right is just fine. We got it.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

Our society isn't a paragon of virtue, it's rotten at the core and it's been that way for at least almost 20 years (probably more than that, to be honest, but that was when I became aware of it).

 

[anticlimatic]

The left is bad and the right is just fine. We got it.

If someone told me 20 years ago that the right would be the party of free speech and individualism I never would have believed it either. As a critical thinker, free spirit, artist, and engineer, I put principals over party. Currently the right is the only one standing up for the values that are important to me, but 20 years ago I was expelled from a right-leaning christian high school for refusing to tow their moral collectivism bullshit. I'm certainly not going to start doing it now that the left is the religious institution that wants to tell me what to do and think.

How does it feel becoming the religious zealot you always looked up to so much when you were growing up? Strange how little we change from what our parents shaped us into. Different window dressings, maybe, but that old framework almost never budges.

Our society isn't a paragon of virtue, it's rotten at the core and it's been that way for at least almost 20 years (probably more than that, to be honest, but that was when I became aware of it).

We used to elect Lincolns, Eisenhowers, and Roosevelts. Now we just elect third rate P.T. Barnum -Andrew Jackson mashups.

20 years ago is accurate. I remember a decade at least that preceded it, and shit was nowhere near as fucked. I wonder if 9/11 was the turning point.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

If someone told me 20 years ago that the right would be the party of free speech and individualism I never would have believed it either. As a critical thinker, free spirit, artist, and engineer, I put principals over party. Currently the right is the only one standing up for the values that are important to me, but 20 years ago I was expelled from a right-leaning christian high school for refusing to tow their moral collectivism bullshit. I'm certainly not going to start doing it now that the left is the religious institution that wants to tell me what to do and think.

How does it feel becoming the religious zealot you always looked up to so much when you were growing up?

We used to elect Lincolns, Eisenhowers, and Roosevelts. Now we just elect third rate P.T. Barnum -Andrew Jackson mashups.

Looks like decline to me.

 

[ceecee]

How does it feel becoming the religious zealot you always looked up to so much when you were growing up? Strange how little we change from what our parents shaped us into. Different window dressings, maybe, but that old framework almost never budges.

This makes no sense.

 

[anticlimatic]

I remember after 9/11, there was a lot of censorship, then, too. Stuff would get pulled for showing the Twin Towers, or even just having explosions.

Lots of pictures of flags, though.



You're off by a few years there, buddy. Maybe that's what happens when there's bipartisan consensus on a bullshit war. But that's where being ruled primarily by fear gets you, and also why conservatism is a cancerous ideology, if you can even call it an ideology and not just emotional hysteria.

We're an empire in decline and we need to face the fact. Trump can't make America "Great" again, and the reason is that he's just proof of the fact that we're in decline. Reality TV shows, cable news, and education and science and technology defunding have turned us into a nation of morons, which means that we're incapable, collectively, of doing anything that might reverse that decline. The best case scenario is that we become like the social democracies of former empires in Western Europe, which is something I'm ok with because personally I'm not big on empires.

You backed the wrong horse and you're going to spend the rest of your life seeing the consequences (not that the alternative was that much better; it would have just slowed the decline rather than reversed it). Clinton would have been similar to Obama; she would have sound enough judgement to do things to slow the decline, but not enough vision to actually reverse it. We can tell this because her message was "America is already great" when in fact, it's rotten at the core.

Nah, I still think america is fundamentally great. We just tragically bred an entire generation to live in fear of words, failure, and leaving their parents basement. The more your generation grows into power, the less great the country will be overall sure, but the principals are sound- and maybe the awful conditions people like you will create in the country will inspire a later generation to once again aspire to the heights of their great grandparents. Unless of course your generation succeeds in uprooting those principals and dragging all future generations into the dumpster with you.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

Nah, I still think america is fundamentally great. We just tragically bred an entire generation to live in fear of words, failure, and leaving their parents basement. The more your generation grows into power, the less great the country will be overall sure, but the principals are sound- and maybe the awful conditions people like you will create in the country will inspire a later generation to once again aspire to the heights of their great grandparents.

No, this is a dying empire. Perhaps [MENTION=4347]Virtual ghost[/MENTION] can tell me why I'm wrong.

We're not great. What is the evidence for us being great? What are we great at?

 

[anticlimatic]

No, this is a dying empire. Perhaps [MENTION=4347]Virtual ghost[/MENTION] can tell me why I'm wrong.

We're not great. What is the evidence for us being great? What are we great at?

There is no "we." You might not be great at anything, but there are many individuals who are (including myself). Supporting and rewarding that concept is a principal that makes the country great.

 

[ceecee]

There is no "we."

There is your problem.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

There is no "we." You might not be great at anything, but there are many individuals who are.

I'm great at lots of things. America, not so much. Seems to me you have a lot invested in the idea of collective greatness. Fortunately, for me, my own sense of worth is not tied up with those of massive collective identities like the nation-state. i would personally like my own nation-state to do better, but I don't see that happening for some time. I've made my peace with that, for the most part.

What is America currently great at? You still haven't answered my question. I understand your faith is important to you, but I was hoping you'd give me a window into understanding it.


You really think this is the face of greatness?

Proof of decline. Compare him with men like Eisenhower, Lincoln, or either of the Roosevelts. His closest past analogue is Andrew Jackson, which is not exactly a high watermark of greatness. But at least Jackson's tough guy attitude wasn't all smoke and mirrors; he was actually a military man.

 

[Lark]

This makes no sense.

Do you think that people are making less and less sense at the moment? I certainly think so, I think its part of some kind of really dumb strategy too.

A lot of people online have such an obsession with re-enacting 1940s Germany and its spilling offline and sloshing back and forth online and offline.

 

[anticlimatic]

There is your problem.

Actually, my refusal to join your collectivist ranks is your problem. None of my agendas require group effort against people's wills. So good luck with all of those.

I'm great at lots of things. America, not so much. Seems to me you have a lot invested in the idea of collective greatness. Fortunately, for me, my own sense of worth is not tied up with those of massive collective identities like the nation-state. i would personally like my own nation-state to do better, but I don't see that happening for some time.

What is America currently great at? You still haven't answered my question. I understand your faith is important to you, but I was hoping you'd give me a window into understanding it.

You really think this is the face of greatness?

Proof of decline. Compare him with men like Eisenhower, Lincoln, or either of the Roosevelts. His closest past analogue is Andrew Jackson, which is not exactly a high watermark of greatness. But at least Jackson's tough guy attitude wasn't all smoke and mirrors; he was actually a military man.

Trump is a man who was elected president for a term or two. He did some good stuff, he did some bad stuff, and the country will carry on without him soon or sooner. The "greatness of america" runs deeper than that. Make your own thread on the topic and I might pen a poem or two for the nation there.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

I want tangible, concrete evidence for America's present greatness. WWII was a long time ago, and individualism and freedom are abstractions. It's looking suspiciously like you have a religious belief in the greatness of America, but I'm sure I'm mistaken and you can point to all kinds of tangible and concrete evidence for greatness. I'm sure a rational intellectual person like yourself wouldn't just believe in the greatness of America without proof.

Make your own thread on the topic and I might pen a poem or two for the nation there.

You can share your hymns here. I'm sure the mods will be happy to split this thread off if need be; they have done so in the past.

 

[Lark]

So this is a growing issue, especially within the "arts" field, is a sort of "censorship" of thought. Or the "requirement" of someone of a community to be in there to meet representation, or otherwise be considered racist and etc.

If we allow a certain degree of censorship, where exactly would this stop?
Who's idea of "censorship" would be correct?

One of the greatest privileges we have in the USA is freedom of speech. More and more, from both sides, this "freedom" is being violated. Trump should not tell people they cannot protest this or that, but people also shouldn't be saying I can't watch a movie because it depicted blacks negatively in some scene.

I am curious what your thoughts and stances are on this growing issue. Because it seems more people want a sort of censorship.

A lot of discussions of censorship dont concern me, although I generally dislike the closed mindedness of a lot of the supposedly enlightened or progressive types I've known. It seems to follow the sorts of patterns that bothered Orwell the most in his appendix to Homage To Catalonia and his literary creation 1984's appendix on Newspeak.

Though the most insidious forms of censorship dont need enforcement at all, that was Orwell's entire point. Chomsky and some of his collaborators have written about manufacturing consent and thought control in democratic societies in interesting ways but I'm not sure they even get it entirely right. Its about the topics that dont appear in the indexes of books or the entirely over looked or entirely neglected material. By which I'm not meaning the niche or unpopular conspiracy theories or stuff like that. Its not censorship to be ignored.

Like, I dont believe you're a victim of conspiracy or some sort of discriminatory plot if you're the "only [whatever] in the village". A lot of the time people confuse this kind of thing with censorship and get into rants about it, whether they are far right or liberals.

When it comes to censorship I tend to appreciate what Kirkegaard had to say about people needing freedom of speech as they were avoiding/neglecting freedom of thought.