[ESTJ] Can you help me with my ESTJ fiance?

[FullofMoxie]

I started a thread in the Intertype forum, and someone recommended I ask my questions of an ESTJ instead, so I'm just C&Ping my post from there. Hopefully, someone can help. TIA!!!


Hi, obviously I'm new, and I wound up here because we have ISSUES. I looked through all 4 pages of this subforum and found nothing, so I'm going to post here.

I only found out our types last night, when a friend recommended I check mine. I'm the ENFP, as I discovered, and when I was reading descriptions, I saw that SJ types would be hardest for me to communicate with, and instantly knew my fiance must fall into that group. Without telling him anything, I asked him to take the test, and I was right. He's the ESTJ.

We have recently gotten to the point that I have almost decided he's just a total jerk and almost decided to leave. I know that he has felt that I'm flighty and irresponsible (although to be clear on this, I'm not in any way extreme - I pay my bills on time, I keep my house very neat, etc.). He thinks I'm "too emotional" and I think he doesn't care enough about other people's feelings. Reading these descriptions of us was the first time I ever realized that he's not some weird outlier in the world, lol. I've actually never (and I'm 37 years old) had a close relationship with anyone like my fiance before, and I have found him extremely difficult to deal with since we moved in together in January. In fact, we've had difficulties to the point of postponing the marriage, because we do not understand each other at all.

His lack of empathy has made me feel that my needs and wants are totally irrelevant to him. I can't say how my emotionality has made him feel, but I know it bothers him sometimes. We've been together for over 2 years, and things have reached a boiling point now. I feel that it's possible that we can work things out, if we can learn to live together, but I'm completely unsure of how to do that. Also, and I know this is going to sound stupid, but I have to ask anyway: how do I know the difference between when he's behaving like any other ESTJ could be expected to behave but his intentions are still good, and when he's simply being a selfish asshole? I mean, it sounds simple enough, but believe me, it's not.

 

[Ursa]

Based on my own experiences with someone who I believed lacked empathy, I would run! You should never have to question whether someone in a relationship is unempathetic or an asshole, because these traits are extreme. Find someone else more moderate, more kind and more mellow and who you can actually stand to be with, and who respects you and your style. Any partner who does not respect your emotional needs, any partner who criticizes you a lot, any partner who makes you actually question their empathy skills, is not someone you should be with or who deserves to be with you, period.

 

[ChocolateMoose123]

[MENTION=27873]FullofMoxie[/MENTION]

Can you give an example of how you see him being not empathetic?

I have been in LTR with 2 ESTJ's, so I know the type well. I'm also in a LTR with an ENFP....so maybe I can give some insight if these differences are type related miscommunication or incompatibility.

 

[FullofMoxie]

Ursa, I understand what you're saying, but I also think that there are times when people have such a hard time understanding each other, that these things can really be misunderstood. He definitely does not criticize me a lot. He almost never criticizes me, actually. He has to be pretty upset to say anything negative about me at all, which is one reason that I can't say he's mean or a jerk. It's just that sometimes when I'm really upset about things, I feel that he's ignoring how I feel because he thinks he has a solution to the problem, so how I feel about the situation isn't that important anymore because he has solved it, so there's no reason I should continue to be upset.

MDP2525, an example is this: I recently moved to be in the same location as him. I didn't have a job lined up here, and it took me a few months to find one. This was extremely distressing to me. He didn't see why this was a problem at all, because he was paying all the bills, making sure I had everything I needed, etc. So for him, there was no problem, because everything was taken care of, I had money for whatever I wanted or needed, and basically there was nothing to stress about. However, for me, there was a problem because I felt bad about it. My emotions about the situation REALLY bothered him, to the point of getting a little angry when I would talk about it.

This is one example of a time I thought he was a jerk who had no empathy, because he was frustrated by the fact that the situation stressed me out so much. He felt like he was doing everything he could do to solve the problems, and it made no sense to feel bad about it, since everything was handled. I felt like he should understand that anyone would feel crappy relying on someone else to support them. I think, now that I've read about personality differences, that this makes sense. Obviously, he's not a total jerk, because he's been supporting me. He saw what he thought was the problem (money) and he solved the problem, so he didn't understand feeling bad about it. To me though, the problem wasn't just money. To me, the problem was feeling bad about being a moocher (because that's how I've felt).

IDK, it's just things like that, happening regularly. I feel worried or stressed, and he is unable to see the point of feeling like that, when he sees that the things that bother me have simple (to him) solutions. This would be a normal difference, wouldn't it?

 

[Ursa]

[MENTION=27873]FullofMoxie[/MENTION], you mentioned he is "unable to see" your viewpoint sometimes. Have you communicated this concern to him? What did he say? Does he want to work on this, and do you want to work on the ability to see his viewpoint too? Has he DEMONSTRATED a commitment to being more sensitive to your viewpoint and listening more?

I usually avoid relationships in which the other party is plainly and simply unable to see an important viewpoint that I have, no matter how much it is communicated. It's called incompatibility.

 

[chubber]

2 things:

Statistic indicates that NFs prefer other NFs. so ENFP and INFJ would be their ultimate circle jerk of empathy. (in my point of view). But then there are statistics and...

Socionics says that ESTj and ENFp are each other's activity partner type: Read more here The 16 Types Info on Activity Relations and wikisocion on Activation

What do I think? I think any relationship could work if people were to be stranded on an island and were forced to make them make it work (for their survival). But with today, so many choices out there, why bother, when there is always the next thing around the corner? I guess it comes down to what you're willing to put up with and wants/needs in your life and find some of balance. I personally think that the struggles makes it part of the relationship and keeps the relationship "un-boring" if there is such a word. But inevitability predicts that there will be some things that are just boring. I would say, why friends could be filling those gaps with other needs. To expect everything from one partner is, what I would think draining. Checks and balances need to be in place. Each person has their strength, so stop hammering them on what their simply not good at and appreciate the parts that they are, you step in when they are just not that good with it. Team work?

Another thing I could add is, if you are complaining about empathy and you need that, then why aren't you looking deeper to see why, or what you personally perceive as the lack of empathy, could be something else and the reason behind it your own lack of understanding.

If that is perceived as criticism, then so be it, however I do know you are searching for external help. Good stuff.

 

[Ursa]

Another thing I could add is, if you are complaining about empathy and you need that, then why aren't you looking deeper to see why, or what you personally perceive as the lack of empathy, could be something else and the reason behind it your own lack of understanding.

Alternatively, why isn't she moving on to someone who more readily and willingly gives her the understanding she wants and needs?

 

[FullofMoxie]

Another thing I could add is, if you are complaining about empathy and you need that, then why aren't you looking deeper to see why, or what you personally perceive as the lack of empathy, could be something else and the reason behind it your own lack of understanding.

That's EXACTLY what I AM doing. lol

 

[PeaceBaby]

What is good about your relationship?

 

[ChocolateMoose123]

Ursa, I understand what you're saying, but I also think that there are times when people have such a hard time understanding each other, that these things can really be misunderstood. He definitely does not criticize me a lot. He almost never criticizes me, actually. He has to be pretty upset to say anything negative about me at all, which is one reason that I can't say he's mean or a jerk. It's just that sometimes when I'm really upset about things, I feel that he's ignoring how I feel because he thinks he has a solution to the problem, so how I feel about the situation isn't that important anymore because he has solved it, so there's no reason I should continue to be upset.

MDP2525, an example is this: I recently moved to be in the same location as him. I didn't have a job lined up here, and it took me a few months to find one. This was extremely distressing to me. He didn't see why this was a problem at all, because he was paying all the bills, making sure I had everything I needed, etc. So for him, there was no problem, because everything was taken care of, I had money for whatever I wanted or needed, and basically there was nothing to stress about. However, for me, there was a problem because I felt bad about it. My emotions about the situation REALLY bothered him, to the point of getting a little angry when I would talk about it.

This is one example of a time I thought he was a jerk who had no empathy, because he was frustrated by the fact that the situation stressed me out so much. He felt like he was doing everything he could do to solve the problems, and it made no sense to feel bad about it, since everything was handled. I felt like he should understand that anyone would feel crappy relying on someone else to support them. I think, now that I've read about personality differences, that this makes sense. Obviously, he's not a total jerk, because he's been supporting me. He saw what he thought was the problem (money) and he solved the problem, so he didn't understand feeling bad about it. To me though, the problem wasn't just money. To me, the problem was feeling bad about being a moocher (because that's how I've felt).

IDK, it's just things like that, happening regularly. I feel worried or stressed, and he is unable to see the point of feeling like that, when he sees that the things that bother me have simple (to him) solutions. This would be a normal difference, wouldn't it?

That all makes perfect sense to me. Sounds very ESTJ to me. When they don't know how to "fix" something their frustration with that can be seen as lack of empathy. But sometimes it is internal frustration too. That he can't figure out a way to make you happy or he may think you don't value his "taking care of you". He may be confused about all that.


In a way, if he starts becoming defensive. Stop him and tell him. I don't need you to fix this or come up with solutions because there isn't any at the moment. It is on me to fix this. I just need you to listen and be really sweet and gentle with me about this.

You may have to do this prior to EVERY time you need this support in order for him to get that message. In order for him to realize he has to switch "gears" and meet you halfway or soften his approach.

This aspect of your relationship will take work on both your parts.