but I earned it!

[miss fortune]

I have a coworker... let's call him Otis... he's been in the department for several years and he does great work, but every time we try to train him on something more advanced in the department he just doesn't get it... as in, we can repeat ourselves time after time and he'll have it down for the next 10 minutes and then it vanishes from his mind completely. I feel kind of bad, because he's a nice guy and a really hard worker, but he just doesn't get it.

it's not to say that he can't get more complex things, because we lent him to another department that has a more advanced position that repeats the same few things over and over and he did great on that without getting bored, but a more advanced position that involves shifting from one thing to another quickly and making calls on things based on a glance at the data just doesn't click with him somehow.

I'll be leaving within the next year or so, so my boss (big boss... not departmental boss) asked who I wanted to train to do all of the things that I do in the department (which is A LOT of different shit... figuring out what to do and what needs to be done based on the situation is required... and being able to do the same things as my boss as well) and I picked a newer person (let's call her Beulah) over him. She's bright, she learns things quickly, she's a really hard worker and she absolutely LOVES working in our department... I've trained her on a few of the more complex parts of the area that actually DO require some thinking and judgement calls and she picked up on them immediately and even modified a few things to run even more efficiently and I think she'll do a fantastic job. She's excited to train to do everything and all of the bosses agree that she's a really good pick.

but Otis is not going to be happy with this at all when he finds out. when I came into the department from another department and immediately went to a higher position than him he was pissed off and demanded that he be trained in the same things as I was and he just couldn't pick up on it. He demanded a few months later to the GM that he be trained and he just didn't get it again... and as soon as he hears that I've picked someone other than him to train to replace me he's going to pitch a fit and demand that he receive the same training and have the position instead of her. He's great at his job, but he just doesn't grasp the concepts required to do what I've been doing.

Otis says that he's earned the position by serving in the department longer and putting in more hard work and he HAS put in a lot of hard work and has always been right there to do extra work whenever necessary. My boss (departmental) says that he'll feel compelled to train him as well just so that he doesn't complain or leave the department and I personally think that it's a waste of resources to train him for the 5th time in something he just doesn't get... but I kind of feel bad because we've worked together long enough that he's pretty much a brother to me. Beulah will do a really good job and will require a lot less training though and I really like having her around as well. I've brought this up with my boss and he's afraid that if we don't train him he'll leave the department and we won't have him working there any longer.

I'm kind of in a bit of a spot here because I'm the one who would be training both of them on top of the several jobs that I already do at work... I have the energy for it but I'm not sure that I actually have the time to train Otis since that requires a lot of supervision and a lot of going over the same things over and over and over... he's already been banned from several tasks for fucking them up too much anyway so I'm pretty sure that it's a very bad idea. I can go over my boss' head and have OUR boss tell him to just have Beulah trained, but that seems a bit like an asshole move because it took a while for the two of us to actually trust one another and come up with a good working relationship... I mean, he even agrees that Beulah is a much better choice than Otis and that Otis would never actually be used in the position... he's just afraid of losing a good worker. Otis' entire argument is that he's earned it by putting in a lot of hard work (years of hard work).

Should a person earn a shot at something they aren't suited for just because they've put in the work?

How many tries are too many?

 

[Jaguar]

Should a person earn a shot at something they aren't suited for just because they've put in the work?

Hell, no. It wouldn't matter to me if the person was hired a week ago. Whoever is best suited for the position wins.

 

[Tilt]

No... You don't want deal with the incompetence in the long term.

He rose to the ceiling of his competency level so it would not be wise to promote based on years of experience.

Supposedly, the way he can be good at rote, routine tasks but not adapt to more complex problem-solving is what average IQ looks like in terms of real-world application.

This applies to the situation.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_principle

 

[miss fortune]

Hell, no. It wouldn't matter to me if the person was hired a week ago. Whoever is best suited for the position wins.

she pretty much WAS hired a month ago!

No... You don't want deal with the incompetence in the long term.

He rose to the ceiling of his competency level so it would not be wise to promote based on years of experience.

Supposedly, the way he can be good at rote, routine tasks but not adapt to more complex problem-solving is what average IQ looks like in terms of real-world application.

This applies to the situation.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_principle

that's what constitutes as average? do I collect the smart people usually?

but yes, I'm thinking that he's reached his ceiling ad he refuses to recognize that fact and therefore is making things more difficult for everyone else... my suggestion was to lend him to the other department to let him do the rote but higher status job a few times a week so that he can feel all powerful and special without jeopardizing us

and I loved the bit in the article saying that all public servants should immediately be demoted to the position at which they were competent (should apply to most work places, I fear)

 

[prplchknz]

would he be ok with a raise but not a promotion? sense he's been there forever, you could give him a you're a good fellow and so amazing in your current postion that if we promoted you there would be a hole that could just not be filled here's more money reward.

 

[miss fortune]

would he be ok with a raise but not a promotion? sense he's been there forever, you could give him a you're a good fellow and so amazing in your current postion that if we promoted you there would be a hole that could just not be filled here's more money reward.

we only get raises based on promotions or how long we've been there... otherwise I'd be all over your plan there

 

[Bush]

Pragmatic hat on

Someone having tried really, really hard is a valid consideration. Until around their 7th birthday or so.

"Seniority" in and of itself is okay as a tiebreaker, but not as the primary component of a decision. (I say in and of itself because it has indirect effects, such as having established trust over time.)

 

[miss fortune]

Pragmatic hat on

Someone having tried really, really hard is a valid consideration. Until around their 7th birthday or so.

"Seniority" in and of itself is okay as a tiebreaker, but not as the primary component of a decision. (I say in and of itself because it has indirect effects, such as having established trust over time.)

yeah... if they were equally competent I'd be all for him having a shot

however, they most definitely are not and I'm not all for the boss giving into his whining about things... I mean, we're ALL older than 7

 

[Coriolis]

Should a person earn a shot at something they aren't suited for just because they've put in the work?

Short answer: no. Based on what you wrote, he has already had many shots at doing the work, and couldn't pass muster. Has anyone explained to him why he wasn't given your job? Does he understand that he simply was not able to keep up with the work?

The most I would suggest is to pick one or two of the tasks you do, and the new employee will need to take over when you leave, and train him on those. This could be the ones that he is closest to mastering, or the ones most in need of being done, so he could fill in for Beulah when needed. (Some redundancy is always good.)

All this being said, dissatisfied employees will sometimes vote with their feet. If Otis really is a hard worker and performs functions of value to the company, to the point where they wouldn't want to lose him, it might be worth their while to offer him a raise or even create a different, smaller promotion, just to encourage him to stay despite the disappointment.

 

[miss fortune]

Short answer: no. Based on what you wrote, he has already had many shots at doing the work, and couldn't pass muster. Has anyone explained to him why he wasn't given your job? Does he understand that he simply was not able to keep up with the work?

The most I would suggest is to pick one or two of the tasks you do, and the new employee will need to take over when you leave, and train him on those. This could be the ones that he is closest to mastering, or the ones most in need of being done, so he could fill in for Beulah when needed. (Some redundancy is always good.)

All this being said, dissatisfied employees will sometimes vote with their feet. If Otis really is a hard worker and performs functions of value to the company, to the point where they wouldn't want to lose him, it might be worth their while to offer him a raise or even create a different, smaller promotion, just to encourage him to stay despite the disappointment.

training him on some of the things that he'd be good at works for a bit... should do some more of that he's really good at rote tasks and physical tasks, but is very bad at noticing things and details

unfortunately, raises are entirely based on how long we've been there and they do not offer promotions unless you've gone through an entire interview process (though I've helped him some with how to respond in interviews and what manner one must comport themselves in while being interviewed)

 

[á´…eparted]

Hell, no. It wouldn't matter to me if the person was hired a week ago. Whoever is best suited for the position wins.

This.

He's just going to have to deal. Period. Be nice and let him down in the softest way possible, but he actually didn't earn it. If he did, he'd be the one being trained.

 

[ChocolateMoose123]

[MENTION=1180]whatever[/MENTION]

It is funny at my workplace the same thing is happening but I'm the one promoted.

The senior guy there is upset but he is similar to Otis. I'm now managing the office and it is a lot of detail/multi-tasking/memory/fast calls/troubleshooting needed.

I mentioned this to the big boss, that my Otis has been resentful toward me about it. His response was that he couldn't and wouldn't like to do the job. That he puts people where their strength is.

I think my Otis over estimates his abilities and when preforming tasks often does bare minimum. He is adaquate but you can't really rely on him to a certain extent.

Otis has complained to me about it and is clueless that he comes off this way. He thinks he is doing above and beyond work.

I don't know if those qualities are similar to your Otis.

 

[Amargith]

Any chance he can get that advanced position in the other department where he functioned so well? Or one like it?

It does seem to be a pity that his skills (and limitations) are somehow less valuable, despite those strengths being clearly recognised, in the company. While I would certainly support Beulah for your position, something isn't right when only certain skill sets are valuable enough to be considered worthy of promotion AND a raise, imho.

In that regard, he does have a legitimate axe to grind with a company he's put that much time, devotion and loyalty into. And, I too, in his position, would seriously consider wether or not this is a company Im still willing to give all of that, when they cannot bother to give me the advancement that I've sweated for - especially if its been held out like a carrot that many times.

Again, I know it's his own limitations, but you could argue that the company's biased view on how they reward their employees is certainly part of this problem. And if that doesn't change or cannot change, they do deserve to lose him.

 

[prplchknz]

piss them both off and promote me sharing feelings is caring after all.

 

[Poki]

I would simple explain. It as we tried and the job is not cut out for him. Praise him in the department he did good in and explain that if he pushes for those positions he will grow and expand at a much faster rate then a job he can't do and struggles remembering.

He should not get it from what you said.

 

[miss fortune]

This.

He's just going to have to deal. Period. Be nice and let him down in the softest way possible, but he actually didn't earn it. If he did, he'd be the one being trained.

one of the managers even explained that... and then he decided it wasn't true and that they were just finding a way to keep him down I'm so not looking forward to having to explain why I chose Beulah for the position over him when he realizes what's happened

[MENTION=1180]whatever[/MENTION]

It is funny at my workplace the same thing is happening but I'm the one promoted.

The senior guy there is upset but he is similar to Otis. I'm now managing the office and it is a lot of detail/multi-tasking/memory/fast calls/troubleshooting needed.

I mentioned this to the big boss, that my Otis has been resentful toward me about it. His response was that he couldn't and wouldn't like to do the job. That he puts people where their strength is.

I think my Otis over estimates his abilities and when preforming tasks often does bare minimum. He is adaquate but you can't really rely on him to a certain extent.

Otis has complained to me about it and is clueless that he comes off this way. He thinks he is doing above and beyond work.

I don't know if those qualities are similar to your Otis.

Yeah... Otis will work hard, but can't prioritize and won't listen to others, so he does all of the WRONG work... and when he fucks things up EVERYONE is screwed over since we're the last step in things, shipping... he screwed up two major things on Saturday and immediately blamed other people for both of them

he does think he's an awesome and essential employee though, even though I could train someone to do his job better in a week... he's loyal to the department, but that doesn't, in my mind, make up for the fact that he's incompetent and throws a hissy fit every time someone else gets promoted in front of him (he hated me at first for moving in laterally from another department when I hadn't worked my way up there, even though I'd worked my way up in two different departments, one of which was eliminated)

it's just kind of frustrating that he refuses to see that he's not cut out for it and makes everyone else's lives hell because of it!

Any chance he can get that advanced position in the other department where he functioned so well? Or one like it?

It does seem to be a pity that his skills (and limitations) are somehow less valuable, despite those strengths being clearly recognised, in the company. While I would certainly support Beulah for your position, something isn't right when only certain skill sets are valuable enough to be considered worthy of promotion AND a raise, imho.

In that regard, he does have a legitimate axe to grind with a company he's put that much time, devotion and loyalty into. And, I too, in his position, would seriously consider wether or not this is a company Im still willing to give all of that, when they cannot bother to give me the advancement that I've sweated for - especially if its been held out like a carrot that many times.

Again, I know it's his own limitations, but you could argue that the company's biased view on how they reward their employees is certainly part of this problem. And if that doesn't change or cannot change, they do deserve to lose him.

We're trying to get him into that role in that department, but it's now questionable thanks to his abovementioned major screwups

yeah, there should be bonuses based on things other than overall company performance and longevity, but we work for a giant, soulless corporation and they do things in a very objective manner

I would simple explain. It as we tried and the job is not cut out for him. Praise him in the department he did good in and explain that if he pushes for those positions he will grow and expand at a much faster rate then a job he can't do and struggles remembering.

He should not get it from what you said.

I've been working on building up his confidence in that department and getting him over there on a more full time basis because it'd solve both of our problems all in one go!

the question being, will he still resent Beulah? we have yet to see that...

 

[Amargith]

yeah, there should be bonuses based on things other than overall company performance and longevity, but we work for a giant, soulless corporation and they do things in a very objective manner

Then they'll pay the price and lose a good employee. It's as simple as that.

Cost-benefit analysis, ftw.

 

[miss fortune]

Then they'll pay the price and lose a good employee. It's as simple as that.

Cost-benefit analysis, ftw.

the thing is, this'll be something like the 10th time he's threatened to leave but he never does

everyone else freaks out every time he's threatened, but I'm all "boy who cried wolf" over it now

 

[Tilt]

the thing is, this'll be something like the 10th time he's threatened to leave but he never does

everyone else freaks out every time he's threatened, but I'm all "boy who cried wolf" over it now

If he threatens to leave a lot, causes drama, and is somewhat incompetent, why does the company keep him on? I am curious from a business psychology POV.

 

[Amargith]

the thing is, this'll be something like the 10th time he's threatened to leave but he never does

everyone else freaks out every time he's threatened, but I'm all "boy who cried wolf" over it now

Then I guess all you have to worry about is the transitional period where he will be resentful