Burqa

[Mole]

Yesterday as I was having lunch and reading the, "Australian", newspaper there was a woman in a full burqa at the next table trying to eat her lunch under the watchful eye of her husband.

It was pitiful as her face was fully covered with the burqa and she was trying to push food up under the burqa.

I am usually happy and gregarious at lunchtime and I normally speak to the people at the next table but I have learnt it is extremely unwelcome for me to address a muslim women, particularly in the presence of her husband. When I have tried to talk to the woman, I have been warned off by the husband in no uncertain terms and his tone of voice and body language have suggested violence would follow if I persisted.

I have learnt that the couple at the next table were here as graduate students in Engineering, in particular the husband, so they were quite well educated.

So I wasn't so surprised to see this video on Youtube -

YouTube - cerab´s story 3sat

 

[Night]

I have been warned off by the husband in no uncertain terms and his tone of voice and body language have suggested violence would follow if I persisted.

Can you speak further to this point?

How did you distinguish this conclusion?

 

[JivinJeffJones]

Why go right away for conversation with the woman? Why not start a conversation with the husband and then, once he'd warmed up to you a bit, include the wife? Or were you only interested in conversing with his wife? And if so, why?

Oh and why tell us the name of the paper? Were you bragging a little, given that it's considered a relatively highbrow aussie rag? Or were you just fleshing out the scene in odd and conspicuous detail?

*feels like he's taking this anecdote too seriously*

 

[Moiety]

YouTube - cerab´s story 3sat

You know you are dealing with fundamentalists when they always refuse to explain their "convictions".

This was the kind of thing that made me want to be a politician when I was young. What can the common man do to put a stop to this madness? There's only one thing that sickens me more than injustice and malice and that is socially acceptable injustice and malice.

But violence breeds violence. I wonder if there is a way to reform this world without being equally extreme...

 

[Mole]

Why go right away for conversation with the woman? Why not start a conversation with the husband and then, once he'd warmed up to you a bit, include the wife? Or were you only interested in conversing with his wife? And if so, why?

For two years I had coffee and conversation with muslim graduate student from Iran. And I quite reasonably thought we were friends. But one day outside the University I met him and his wife by accident and sat down for our usual coffee and a chat. But he refused to have coffee with me and when I spoke to his wife out of politeness, he warned me off. And his tone and body language made it plain that he would have none of it.

This was at a normal, sunny coffee shop in Canberra but I was chilled.

 

[Mole]

Oh and why tell us the name of the paper? Were you bragging a little, given that it's considered a relatively highbrow aussie rag? Or were you just fleshing out the scene in odd and conspicuous detail?

Yes, everyday I have coffee and read the, "Australian", and talk to those around me. It is a pleasant and sociable way for me to start the day.

And I am surprised you call the, "Australian", highbrow. If I want highbrow I go to the University. I would have thought the, "Australian", was middlebrow.

 

[JivinJeffJones]

And I am surprised you call the, "Australian", highbrow. If I want highbrow I go to the University. I would have thought the, "Australian", was middlebrow.

I said "relatively". I'm sure you've seen the alternatives getting around.

 

[matmos]

DreiSat is on a similar level to our Daily Mail and using its documentary for anything is a bit lame - particularly for a reader of the auspicious Austalian. A bit like a Telegraph reader quoting the Sun.

The documentary had more fallacies than you could shake a stick at, but composition, false analogy and generalisation loom particularly large.

This type of reportage continually confuses ethnicity, religion & culture into one scary image. It's cheap and grubby stuff, as if commenting on an Irish navvy beating up his wife were in some way connected to the evil of Catholicism.

I seemed to remember a Catholic Chapel in my hometown years ago where the women regularly cover their hair in a ritualistic manner.

One religion is as absurd as the other. Reportage like this rubbish isn't helpful to anyone.

 

[Moiety]

DreiSat is on a similar level to our Daily Mail and using its documentary for anything is a bit lame - particularly for a reader of the auspicious Austalian. A bit like a Telegraph reader quoting the Sun.

The documentary had more fallacies than you could shake a stick at, but composition, false analogy and generalisation loom particularly large.

This type of reportage continually confuses ethnicity, religion & culture into one scary image. It's cheap and grubby stuff, as if commenting on an Irish navvy beating up his wife were in some way connected to the evil of Catholicism.

I seemed to remember a Catholic Chapel in my hometown years ago where the women regularly cover their hair in a ritualistic manner.

One religion is as absurd as the other. Reportage like this rubbish isn't helpful to anyone.

Oh, for sure. It's like Holy Inquisition VS Catholicism. The fact is that back in the middle ages the Holy Inquisition's sphere of influence was BIG. These documentaries are demagogic. But you can't argue against facts and statistics. Demagogy is a problem, but one needs to center on the issue. Islam is not the enemy. But people who stone women are.

 

[Mole]

DreiSat is on a similar level to our Daily Mail and using its documentary for anything is a bit lame - particularly for a reader of the auspicious Austalian. A bit like a Telegraph reader quoting the Sun.

The documentary had more fallacies than you could shake a stick at, but composition, false analogy and generalisation loom particularly large.

This type of reportage continually confuses ethnicity, religion & culture into one scary image. It's cheap and grubby stuff, as if commenting on an Irish navvy beating up his wife were in some way connected to the evil of Catholicism.

I seemed to remember a Catholic Chapel in my hometown years ago where the women regularly cover their hair in a ritualistic manner.

One religion is as absurd as the other. Reportage like this rubbish isn't helpful to anyone.

Yes, I know nothing about DreiSat so I take your advice.

 

[matmos]

Yes, I know nothing about DreiSat so I take your advice.

Well my advice would not be to stop viewing 3Sat, particularly if you like cheap porn from the 70s & 80s, garish audience participation extravaganzas, and dinky music shows. No - far from it.

I'd advise wariness of anyone that wishes to seduce you, even if you agree with them on some issues. Have a gander through this list; spot how many were used in the documentary. And more importantly, how these are used persistantly in the media to demonize the current favourite, Islam...

Persuasion principles

 

[lowtech redneck]

This type of reportage continually confuses ethnicity, religion & culture into one scary image. It's cheap and grubby stuff, as if commenting on an Irish navvy beating up his wife were in some way connected to the evil of Catholicism.

Orthodox Islam, through the four dominant schools of Sharia law, allows Muslim husbands to beat their wives (and explicitly mandates that adulterers be stoned to death). That is not the case within contemporary Catholicism, so it is your analogy which is faulty; ethnic cultures might minimize or accentuate the negative aspects of Islamic orthodoxy, but it is the dominant interpretations of Islam which are the biggest and most lasting problem. The news media you mentioned might be sensationalistic, but on this issue that is no worse than the political-correctness which has stultified mainstream publications regarding orthodox Islam and its human consequences. As for the Burqa, it is very very highly correlated with religious interpretations as well as cultural norms which accentuate the negative aspects of Islamic orthodoxy, so it is quite understandable that Victor draws negative associations from it.

 

[matmos]

Orthodox Islam, through the four dominant schools of Sharia law, allows Muslim husbands to beat their wives (and explicitly mandates that adulterers be stoned to death). That is not the case within contemporary Catholicism, so it is your analogy which is faulty; ethnic cultures might minimize or accentuate the negative aspects of Islamic orthodoxy, but it is the dominant interpretations of Islam which are the biggest and most lasting problem. The news media you mentioned might be sensationalistic, but on this issue that is no worse than the political-correctness which has stultified mainstream publications regarding orthodox Islam and its human consequences. As for the Burqa, it is very very highly correlated with religious interpretations as well as cultural norms which accentuate the negative aspects of Islamic orthodoxy, so it is quite understandable that Victor draws negative associations from it.

I doff my hat to you - an expert in Sharia Law. Just what the doctor ordered.

Should you chose to beat your wife based on obscure religious text, that is of course your call; if you do that in a country where Sharia law (your speciality) has primacy you might get away with it. Conversely, you might get locked up if it is not.

The - frankly bizarre - explanation that because something is no worse than something else, however incorrect, excuses the original incorrectness (restoring some mystical balance) is flawed. Two wrongs..

If you were in the remotest bit clever you might have noticed that the rights and wrongs of any particular religious system were not relevant to my point, it was the quality of the point under discussion. In fact, I concede the documentary described may be wrong in substance but correct in conclusion, as a possibility, however the methodology is nonsense and can be discarded.

As for your assertion that there are "close correlations" between Islam & the burqa, given your expertise in Sharia and all things Islamic, maybe you could impress us with as to where the source of the correlation is - ethnic, religious or cultural (or some other). A relevant passage from the Koran or one of the Suras would suffice. As you're an expert.

Hate who you chose, but your mate Victor won't thank you for it.

That's precisely the point.

 

[lowtech redneck]

I doff my hat to you - an expert in Sharia Law. Just what the doctor ordered.


Hate who you chose, but your mate Victor won't thank you for it.

:rolli:

I never claimed to be an expert, and none of my claims require expert knowledge.

The four dominant schools of (Sunni) Shariah law are Hanafi, Hanbali, Maliki, and Shaifi'i.

The Burqa and other forms of virtually complete body and face covering (not to be confused with the hijab) is most common among Salafis and other religiously conservative Muslims in the Arabian Peninsula and Afghanistan or Pakistan.

As for "hate," where have I expressed such sentiments? Do you always accuse people with whom you disagree of having nefarious motives, or are you so politically correct that you automatically associate criticism of (orthodox) Islamic interpretations (on the basis that they are detrimental to basic human rights) with hatred?

 

[Halla74]

You know what, as a military kid, I can honestly say that I believe in the expression "When in Rome, do as the Romans do."

I think that a person that wears their differences from others on their sleeve, especially to the extent of treating their wife badly in public, as well as the populace at large if they try civily interact with either, should go back to their homeland. If you don't like the ways of your surroundings, and are going to clash with it, then you will most likely not like being there, and the locals most likely won't care for you.

In short, don't be a douchebag. You can get your ass kicked for that.

 

[wildcat]

Yesterday as I was having lunch and reading the, "Australian", newspaper there was a woman in a full burqa at the next table trying to eat her lunch under the watchful eye of her husband.

It was pitiful as her face was fully covered with the burqa and she was trying to push food up under the burqa.

I am usually happy and gregarious at lunchtime and I normally speak to the people at the next table but I have learnt it is extremely unwelcome for me to address a muslim women, particularly in the presence of her husband. When I have tried to talk to the woman, I have been warned off by the husband in no uncertain terms and his tone of voice and body language have suggested violence would follow if I persisted.

I have learnt that the couple at the next table were here as graduate students in Engineering, in particular the husband, so they were quite well educated.

So I wasn't so surprised to see this video on Youtube -

YouTube - cerab´s story 3sat

Never talk to muslim women. Do not even look in their direction.
It is not only that they will be beaten at home. You place their life at risk.
It is no joke. Muslim women are killed all over the world. By their husbands, by their brothers, by their uncles and by their fathers.
It is all about the honour of the men. If a man outside the family even looks in the direction of the sister or the daughter or the wife, the honour of the man is gone. The honour comes back only if the woman in question is killed.

It has always been like this among the peasants in those countries. But most of the urban people, especially the educated classes, were throughly europeanized only thirty years ago.
The change in the street picture is amazing.

It all began in Iran, and at the same time among the Pashtu, in Afghanistan and Pakistan.
In Iran they disposed the Shah. He was for the emancipation of women.
Everybody was. He had taken the lands of the Mullahs and given them to poor farmers.
It is therefore the Mullahs hated him. And because America was behind the rule of the Shah, they hated America.

Russia invaded Afghanistan and the Pashtu sent their sons to Pakistan to study Koran under the Wahhabi. Therefore the fanatical Sunni fundamentalism spread among the Koran students, the Taleban. The Saudis and the rich Pakistani gave them money.
But today their main income is poppy.

 

[matmos]

The Burqa and other forms of virtually complete body and face covering (not to be confused with the hijab) is most common among Salafis and other religiously conservative Muslims in the Arabian Peninsula and Afghanistan or Pakistan.

So what has this to do with Islam? Visit western Turkey, you'll see mini skirts and bikinis. Exactly why some adherants chose a particular garb over other seems irrelevant. The question I asked you was: can you explain why you associate the burqa with Islam.

As for "hate," where have I expressed such sentiments? Do you always accuse people with whom you disagree of having nefarious motives, or are you so politically correct that you automatically associate criticism of (orthodox) Islamic interpretations (on the basis that they are detrimental to basic human rights) with hatred?

Apologies. My bad. My style often supersedes my substance.

Islam and "political correctness" are irrelevant.

FWIW I don't have much time for any religion, but that's my problem - so don't feel I'm an apologist for something you, er, feel neutral about.

 

[lowtech redneck]

The question I asked you was: can you explain why you associate the burqa with Islam.

I associate the Burqa with Islam because Muslims are virtually the only people who wear them (or an equivalent) in modern times. I associate the Burqa (and equivalents) with highly objectionable Islamic interpretations specifically because of the interpretations and practices which prevail within the regions or "denominations" (problematic word, but I can't think of a more accurate one right now) where the Burqa is common. Most orthodox Muslims believe something along the lines of a hijab is enough.

My point (perhaps I could have worded it better in my previous post) is that the Burqa is not in itself a big problem, but the Islamic interpretations and cultural practices (the latter is justified through the former, not vise versa) which mandate that women wear burqa's also promote more objectionable things through the same interpretation methodology.

 

[matmos]

I associate the Burqa with Islam because Muslims are virtually the only people who wear them ...

You ever seen a Catholic nun?

 

[lowtech redneck]

You ever seen a Catholic nun?

1.) Catholic nuns are an exclusive group that one chooses to join, not something half of the population is born into.

2.) Catholic nuns don't cover their faces.