[ESTP] Breaking through to an ESTP

[JustHer]

Heads up. My wife went through decades of abuse, terrible childhood all around. She's been fighting issues with anxiety for 10 years. She's made significant progress in only the last 2 years. The first 8 years essentially were trying to admit that she had the issue, trying out therapies/techniques that could potentially be effective, and then when they were not putting the recovery on the back burner until another year or so went by and a significant period of anxiety compelled her to move forward again. There's alot more to do in the situation you are describing than you are capable of, just from the standpoint of time alone. Just be cognizant of that when you start to try and measure the efficacy of your efforts...



That's totally cool of you to want to set the stage, just remember it will only happen if both parties agree that there is a problem, agree on what the immediate triggers are, agree to cease committing those actions, allow the ISFJ to enter therapy and guarantee that the ISFJ will not quit therapy, nor the ESTP will not quit ceasing their "trigger" actions until the problems are totally resolved. That is the crux of the issue, based on my personal experience. I wish you and them all luck, seriously. Give it a go, but realize that there is only so much you can do. People change when they WANT to, and that's not always when they NEED to for their own good...

Thank you Halla , that's very helpful.

 

[Halla74]

^You're very welcome. Your intentions are good, good luck Bro.

 

[Amargith]

Heads up. My wife went through decades of abuse, terrible childhood all around. She's been fighting issues with anxiety for 10 years. She's made significant progress in only the last 2 years. The first 8 years essentially were trying to admit that she had the issue, trying out therapies/techniques that could potentially be effective, and then when they were not putting the recovery on the back burner until another year or so went by and a significant period of anxiety compelled her to move forward again. There's alot more to do in the situation you are describing than you are capable of, just from the standpoint of time alone. Just be cognizant of that when you start to try and measure the efficacy of your efforts...



That's totally cool of you to want to set the stage, just remember it will only happen if both parties agree that there is a problem, agree on what the immediate triggers are, agree to cease committing those actions, allow the ISFJ to enter therapy and guarantee that the ISFJ will not quit therapy, nor the ESTP will not quit ceasing their "trigger" actions until the problems are totally resolved. That is the crux of the issue, based on my personal experience. I wish you and them all luck, seriously. Give it a go, but realize that there is only so much you can do. People change when they WANT to, and that's not always when they NEED to for their own good...

Very true. Tnx for that, Halla.



The thing is, I think the only one who can make the ISFJ back off, ironically, would be the ESTP going: you know, I appreciate what you do for me, but I can manage just fine on my own, and you don't need to go out of your way and stress yourself crazy. Learn to say no to me, I won't bite nor stop liking you. Hence I can see why JJ would wanna start with the ESTP.

Unfortunately, JJ, it's a dangerous road to move down, as you'll be considered the know-it-all who needs to keep his nose out of their business, if either one of them isn't ready for this change.

 

[Halla74]

Very true. Tnx for that, Halla.



The thing is, I think the only one who can make the ISFJ back off, ironically, would be the ESTP going: you know, I appreciate what you do for me, but I can manage just fine on my own, and you don't need to go out of your way and stress yourself crazy. Learn to say no to me, I won't bite nor stop liking you. Hence I can see why JJ would wanna start with the ESTP.

Unfortunately, JJ, it's a dangerous road to move down, as you'll be considered the know-it-all who needs to keep his nose out of their business, if either one of them isn't ready for this change.

Thou art correct. All you can do is identify the issue for what it is, decide your course of action, and live with the outcome. Even if you don;t succedd, when you look back years later, you will have tried, and that helps YOU sleep at night.

 

[McRumi]

My Mom is an ISFJ and one of my brothers is an ESTP and there is a similar dynamic to the one discussed, though not so toxic. Trying to tell an ISFJ NOT to help someone they have already established a relationship with is like yelling "Fire" underwater. Useless. ISFJs have a steely sense of protectiveness and loyalty...esp towards the underdog and those who are appreciatively needy. Trying to tell the ESTP that they are burdening a non-complaining (and non-confrontational) ISFJ is like spitting in the wind..it will hit you smack in the face. ESTP will simply say..."She hasn't mentioned a thing to me!" End of discussion.

Halla has it right.

 

[Charmed Justice]

I agree with Halla entirely. My MIL is an INFJ with real codependency issues. I tried to intervene at one point, thinking she was being taken advantage of, and then I realized that she's got things working out exactly how she wants them.

 

[Thalassa]

STPs believe that the best way to protect others is to help them become more self-sufficient and thus self-protective. STPs are not and will never be caretakers. ISFJs on the other hand can and should learn to establish boundaries. Nevertheless, many ISFJs do take great pleasure in being needed.

However, if there is some real physical or material harm occurring, the STP should be confronted directly and all steps should be taken to stop any such harm.

Regarding the bolded:

1) Teaching someone to be aware of how their behavior is hurting others is not the same as being a "caretaker."

2) While Fe is inferior in ISTP, ESTP actually has tertiary Fe. The longest relationship of my life was with a man who I initially thought was an ISFP (I assigned his strong insistence of being true to himself and strong loyalty to people loved to Fi-dom) but I actually think he may be an ESTP because he has a lot of the Se-dom, brutal traits of an ESTP - I think I just experienced his tertiary Fe a lot because I was his long-term girlfriend. So, I don't think that ESTP completely lacks a caretaker instinct - I think they may in fact be extremely protective of the people they care most about.

 

[Halla74]

Regarding the bolded:
1) Teaching someone to be aware of how their behavior is hurting others is not the same as being a "caretaker."

Damn good clarification there.

2) While Fe is inferior in ISTP, ESTP actually has tertiary Fe. The longest relationship of my life was with a man who I initially thought was an ISFP (I assigned his strong insistence of being true to himself and strong loyalty to people loved to Fi-dom) but I actually think he may be an ESTP because he has a lot of the Se-dom, brutal traits of an ESTP - I think I just experienced his tertiary Fe a lot because I was his long-term girlfriend. So, I don't think that ESTP completely lacks a caretaker instinct - I think they may in fact be extremely protective of the people they care most about.

Bold blue:
What might be the "brutal traits" of the ESTP you dated? I'm just curious. Was it blunt-ness? Efficiency without regard for other people's feelings? Or more aggressive than that?

Bold red:
Hell hath no fury than that felt by those who harm my loved ones. We might not be "nurturing" but we are die hard protective, that is a fact. Your powers of observation are astute.

 

[Thalassa]

Damn good clarification there.



Bold blue:
What might be the "brutal traits" of the ESTP you dated? I'm just curious. Was it blunt-ness? Efficiency without regard for other people's feelings? Or more aggressive than that?

Well. He was very aggressive as a young man - he got into physical fights, even knocked a kid's teeth out with a hammer(the boy had been bullying him) when he was 13.

Much more balanced as an adult, but still very blunt, obsessed with punk rock, horror movie collector, loves to shock people for fun - also has a bad temper which he has begun to work on. See, I thought the emotionality of his temper and his emotional intensity and passion toward me in our relationship automatically made him an F, but the more I learn, the less I'm sure of this.

He also has the charm of tertiary Fe - he can completely snow people if necessary.

I also think he's an extrovert because while he isn't all about loving other people (he's not, which I thought made him IF, I was only sure of the SP) he's very dominant, alpha male, speaks up, even pushes what he likes on others.

He was always very protective of me and exceedingly loyal to his family. He also did the thing where he wanted to teach me to be tougher.

Bold red:
Hell hath no fury than that felt by those who harm my loved ones. We might not be "nurturing" but we are die hard protective, that is a fact. Your powers of observation are astute.

 

[Sinmara]

This all sounds like justxher is projecting her opinions and morals onto a situation where getting involved would be akin to banging her head against a brick wall.

I'm in a similar situation with a friend. His ex-girlfriend takes advantage of him horribly. Not only does he allow it, he is completely aware of what is happening. I have talked to him about it several times and he has told me specifically that he enjoys doing things for her and I should stay out of it. Even though in my perception, their relationship is horribly dysfunctional, he does not want to change.

If the ISFJ does not want to change, talking to the ESTP will be absolutely useless. You want to treat the symptom of the problem, the ESTP, because they're the most obvious choice (the squeaky wheel gets the oil type of thing) when the cause is the ISFJ. She is the one allowing her child to take advantage of her. If she did not enable the situation, then the situation wouldn't be happening.

Don't place the ISFJ into the victim who needs saving role so easily. You don't know how rare it is that a person being abused or taken advantage of is unwaware of their role in the problem, regardless of whether or not they have the courage or nerve to stand up for themselves and change things. Chances are that she knows exactly what she is doing.

You might feel like a horrible person for expecting someone who came from abuse to be the bigger man, but you can't coddle them just because they were abused. You can't make excuses for them just because they wre abused. They are not weak. The survived the abuse. That alone takes a remarkable amount of courage and strength. Handling someone with kid gloves just because they had a bad past is vaguely insulting, from my standpoint. They've been through and come out of much worse than anything you can probably inflict upon them. They don't need someone to pat them on the head or shield them, they need someone to treat them with respect. Don't treat them like a victim, treat them like a person.

And good luck telling the ISFJ that she shouldn't give until she bleeds for her child. That is a losing battle from the start.

You can tell the ESTP to back off, but it's not likely to fix or change anything. We tend to believe strongly in free will and personal accountability. Tell the ESTP what you think without tiptoeing aroudn the issue, but if they don't see that the ISFJ is unhappy with the arrangement, they're not likely to change what they're doing. You can talk yourself breathless at an ESTP about what they should do and what they should see, but unless they see or do something for themselves, all your talk will amount to nothing because we learn by our own experiences and no one else's.

 

[JustHer]

You can tell the ESTP to back off, but it's not likely to fix or change anything. We tend to believe strongly in free will and personal accountability. Tell the ESTP what you think without tiptoeing aroudn the issue, but if they don't see that the ISFJ is unhappy with the arrangement, they're not likely to change what they're doing. You can talk yourself breathless at an ESTP about what they should do and what they should see, but unless they see or do something for themselves, all your talk will amount to nothing because we learn by our own experiences and no one else's.

Thank you this part is really true, it sounds like something she would say too. That's why I am asking about what the best way to get through to her will be, it seems like the only solution so far is to point it out to her as she does it. This would count as "learning by her own experience" I think.

Yes the ISFJ is fully aware of being taken advantage of, but me NOT getting involved is not even a possibility. How are you supposed to watch your mother talk about how worthless she feels she is and not try to help? This is obviously the ISFJs problem and not the ESTPs, but that doesn't mean that I shouldn't try as hard as I possiblt can to get the ESTP to HELP the ISFJ get better.

 

[sLiPpY]

Thank you this part is really true, it sounds like something she would say too. That's why I am asking about what the best way to get through to her will be, it seems like the only solution so far is to point it out to her as she does it. This would count as "learning by her own experience" I think.

Yes the ISFJ is fully aware of being taken advantage of, but me NOT getting involved is not even a possibility. How are you supposed to watch your mother talk about how worthless she feels she is and not try to help? This is obviously the ISFJs problem and not the ESTPs, but that doesn't mean that I shouldn't try as hard as I possiblt can to get the ESTP to HELP the ISFJ get better.

I uh, oh...

That's a boundary issue too. It's not your job to parent a parent.

 

[Thalassa]

This all sounds like justxher is projecting her opinions and morals onto a situation where getting involved would be akin to banging her head against a brick wall.

I'm in a similar situation with a friend. His ex-girlfriend takes advantage of him horribly. Not only does he allow it, he is completely aware of what is happening. I have talked to him about it several times and he has told me specifically that he enjoys doing things for her and I should stay out of it. Even though in my perception, their relationship is horribly dysfunctional, he does not want to change.

If the ISFJ does not want to change, talking to the ESTP will be absolutely useless. You want to treat the symptom of the problem, the ESTP, because they're the most obvious choice (the squeaky wheel gets the oil type of thing) when the cause is the ISFJ. She is the one allowing her child to take advantage of her. If she did not enable the situation, then the situation wouldn't be happening.

Yep.

 

[McRumi]

1) Teaching someone to be aware of how their behavior is hurting others is not the same as being a "caretaker."

Which was exactly my point.

 

[McRumi]

Yes the ISFJ is fully aware of being taken advantage of, but me NOT getting involved is not even a possibility. How are you supposed to watch your mother talk about how worthless she feels she is and not try to help?

I have an ISFP mother with exactly the same issue. Only professional therapy would help at this point..and even then...not sure she really wants to change.
At least she's not Jewish...Oy! the guilt trip would be staggering!

 

[lookingglassworld]

Same dynamic(iSFj-mom,me-EsTP). I'm awful apparently.

 

[McRumi]

Same dynamic(iSFj-mom,me-EsTP). I'm awful apparently.

LOL. I have a brother who is ESTP and I'm ISTP.
He's wonderful, I'm the awful one.
He drives her crazy but gives the verbal feedback she wants, my silence is too non-co-dependent for her.

Maddening, but bearable.

 

[Halla74]

LOL. I have a brother who is ESTP and I'm ISTP.
He's wonderful, I'm the awful one.
He drives her crazy but gives the verbal feedback she wants, my silence is too non-co-dependent for her.

Maddening, but bearable.

Dear God. A woman with an ESTP son and an ISTP son. How in the world did she survive you two? :yim_rolling_on_the_

My mother told me if I were the first kid, there would not have been a second.

 

[Amargith]

My INTP brother and his ESFJ wife feel the same about what I think is their ISTP son. They were very pleased to have their ENFJ son first. They did have a third son though, one I think will become an ESFP

They love their son to death, but he's a handful. And defiant. And wants to do things all his way. The girls in his class love him for being so protective and sweet to them. He's got a temper that he has serious trouble controlling, and a golden heart. Every teacher he's had he has wound around his finger, they all love him, despite him constantly disrupting the class. This is the first year that the teacher isn't fooled by him. His parents were happy to finally see that, as they know their son all too well. He gets tempered by his older brother, who likes to keep the peace, but he's a frigging volcano. He hates having to say sorry or kiss people when greeting. He's hard to punish and will often defy my brother on it. Quite the little hothead. And his passion and zest for life are adorable. He's also my godchild

 

[McRumi]

Dear God. A woman with an ESTP son and an ISTP son. How in the world did she survive you two? :yim_rolling_on_the_

My mother told me if I were the first kid, there would not have been a second.

LOL. I have 5 other brothers and a sister. She's ISTP as well.

Fortunately, my Mom comes from good German stock and has weathered it all well.