Astrology - Are you a believer?

[Weber]

Can't we just kill this damn superstition already, and burn the practicioners on the stake? It worked pretty well for witchcraft.

 

[Resonance]

Ok, here's a nice one. I was born with both Saturn and Uranus in Sagittarius, according to that chart.

Saturn in Sagittarius
This placement indicates that you approach new experiences and new knowledge with care and interest. Throughout your life you will hesitate to accept a new idea until you have become very thoroughly acquainted with it and really feel that you understand it.
In many areas of life you are quite conservative, believing in principles that have been proven over a long time.
You have strong ideals, to be sure, but you won't let yourself be carried away by them. You always look for ways to put your beliefs and ideals into practice. When you formulate a belief or an ideal, you find it very easy to put it into practice.
Uranus in Sagittarius
These children are strongly attracted to new philosophies and will question all accepted traditions and ideals. They are interested in new and innovative ideas rather than the tried and true, feeling that the past has outlived its usefulness. They have a strong drive to be free and may be quite eccentric. If the current interest in new religious sects and cults continues, these people are likely to be very much involved in them and will change them tremendously.

Tell me these aren't completely contradictory.

 

[ragashree]

Ok, here's a nice one. I was born with both Saturn and Uranus in Sagittarius, according to that chart.

Tell me these aren't completely contradictory.

So are you not a contradictory person?

 

[Resonance]

So are you not a contradictory person?

I like to think I'm relatively coherent...

 

[ragashree]

I think (and someone who knows more about how it's supposed to work is free to correct me on this) that the slower moving (and by definition, further) planets are generally seen as weaker individual influences, unless they form strong aspects with the faster moving and closer bodies, which will make them of greater personal significance. They're more supposed to indicate general themes representative of your age group or generation. This is maybe why Mars, Venus, the Moon and Sun are generally considered the most significant bodies in interpretation; they change their positions more rapidly and are supposed to be of more direct personal relevance.

 

[Resonance]

So basically, the more specific details are not as accurate... just like with random chance. :/

Here, mars and sun are contradictory too:

Mars in Gemini
Your energies get turned on very rapidly, and you work very quickly. You are inclined to start several projects at once and never finish any of them. If you cannot overcome this basic tendency to dabble shallowly in many activities, you will not master any skill very completely.
On the other hand, you do have a quick mind, which you enjoy using, especially to debate and argue with others in a spirit of friendly disagreement.
Try not to be so impulsive in the way you think. If you make decisions too rapidly, you will often be wrong.
Sun in Taurus
You are very patient and like to do things slowly so that you can see what is really happening.
You like to be comfortable. With your love of comfort and ease, you may try to avoid strenuous situations, but you really need such experiences to help you mature.
People will probably like you because you are affectionate; you give and receive love easily. However, if others try to take advantage of your placidity, they will quickly discover that when you are roused to anger, you don't calm down easily.
You find it difficult to work for abstract goals. You don't mind working a long time for the results you want, but you have to understand and relate to those results.

 

[ragashree]

So basically, the more specific details are not as accurate... just like with random chance. :/

Nooo, the more specific details are supposed to be more accurate. The most important influences are supposed to be sun/moon and mars/venus, in that order, the ascendant coming in there somewhere too, as it's supposed to represent the outward expression of your personality. The rest is not meant to be that significant for you as an individual, unless any of the aforementioned bodies form strong aspects with them.

Here, mars and sun are contradictory too:

Very. So, which seems most true? Both, a mixture, or neither?

 

[Resonance]

Nooo, the more specific details are supposed to be more accurate. The most important influences are supposed to be sun/moon and mars/venus, in that order, the ascendant coming in there somewhere too, as it's supposed to represent the outward expression of your personality. The rest is not meant to be that significant for you as an individual, unless any of the aforementioned bodies form strong aspects with them.

Ok... well, my 'ascendant' (I gather that that is the one that's based on your birth month) is 'taurus', which I've always felt isn't very accurate at all... I'm pretty impulsive and I like to move quickly... I guess I enjoy comfort (who doesn't?) but things like fine wine or gourmet food don't especially appeal to me. I also change my mind on a whim and I have trouble doing things in a 'slow and steady' rhythm.


What you say about 'strong aspects' just means to me, 'if it is true for you, it is especially true for you', which is really a lot like saying 'if your favourite colour is blue, you probably have a preference for blue things'.

Very. So, which seems most true? Both, a mixture, or neither?

Definitely the mars/gemini one (if you haven't figured that out just from talking to me XD). I'm not very outwardly affectionate at all (compared to my peers, anyway... INTPs are another story >.>) and I usually prefer to do things more than once in order to figure them out, rather than 'taking my time'. I'm certainly not as 'earthy' as Taurus would have you believe.

 

[ragashree]

Ok... well, my 'ascendant' (I gather that that is the one that's based on your birth month) is 'taurus', which I've always felt isn't very accurate at all... I'm pretty impulsive and I like to move quickly... I guess I enjoy comfort (who doesn't?) but things like fine wine or gourmet food don't especially appeal to me. I also change my mind on a whim and I have trouble doing things in a 'slow and steady' rhythm.

The ascendant's supposed to be mostly about how you like to see yourself in relation to others - your preferred self-image if you like. To calculate that you need to know the time of birth as accurately as possible, as it's the sign that was coming over the horizon at the time of birth and changes every couple of hours. Mars in gemini makes a certain amount of sense (as you go on to say) as it's supposed to represent your energy source - it relates to sex drive, ambition, motivation, etc, and is interpreted as operating at a very visceral, subconscious level. Sun sign is supposed to be more about ego - how you consciously percieve yourself.

What you say about 'strong aspects' just means to me, 'if it is true for you, it is especially true for you', which is really a lot like saying 'if your favourite colour is blue, you probably have a preference for blue things'.

I'll have to think about that when the sun here isn't rising and I haven't just been hitting the wine, this seems like one of those complex sentences which can only be made sense of in a state of stone cold sobriety

Definitely the mars/gemini one (if you haven't figured that out just from talking to me XD). I'm not very outwardly affectionate at all (compared to my peers, anyway... INTPs are another story >.>) and I usually prefer to do things more than once in order to figure them out, rather than 'taking my time'. I'm certainly not as 'earthy' as Taurus would have you believe.

Hey, hold on, even in my present intoxicated state I can figure out that "doing things more than once in order to figure them out" IS taking your time! Affectionateness towards others should relate most strongly to your Venus position and ascendant: it would be necessary to figure those out before the significance can be critiqued.

 

[Resonance]

The ascendant's supposed to be mostly about how you like to see yourself in relation to others - your preferred self-image if you like. To calculate that you need to know the time of birth as accurately as possible, as it's the sign that was coming over the horizon at the time of birth and changes every couple of hours. Mars in gemini makes a certain amount of sense (as you go on to say) as it's supposed to represent your energy source - it relates to sex drive, ambition, motivation, etc, and is interpreted as operating at a very visceral, subconscious level. Sun sign is supposed to be more about ego - how you consciously percieve yourself.

ok, then so far we're at 50/50. At least we're not doing worse than random chance.

I'll have to think about that when the sun here isn't rising and I haven't just been hitting the wine, this seems like one of those complex sentences which can only be made sense of in a state of stone cold sobriety

Basically I'm saying it's meaningless ;D effectively tautological.

Hey, hold on, even in my present intoxicated state I can figure out that "doing things more than once in order to figure them out" IS taking your time!

But I do them hastily, so no. This is a classic example of reinterpreting to avoid falsification - the original Popperian reason to discount Astrology as a science (along with freudian psychoanalysis and marxist theory of history)

Affectionateness towards others should relate most strongly to your Venus position and ascendant: it would be necessary to figure those out before the significance can be critiqued.

Well... if I take half of the Venus-in-Aries description and half of the Taurus-Rising description, I can get an accurate one...but if I take the other halves I can get an inaccurate one. So again we're at 50/50...

 

[ragashree]

Basically I'm saying it's meaningless ;D effectively tautological.

That explains how the sentence struck me then! I didn't want to be rude in case I was missing some profound insight when only half awake!

But I do them hastily, so no. This is a classic example of reinterpreting to avoid falsification - the original Popperian reason to discount Astrology as a science (along with freudian psychoanalysis and marxist theory of history)

Interesting conflation Well, even astrology is more open to scrutiny than some of Freud's adolescently hormonal speculations...

Well... if I take half of the Venus-in-Aries description and half of the Taurus-Rising description, I can get an accurate one...but if I take the other halves I can get an inaccurate one. So again we're at 50/50...

You still haven't worked out your time of birth to get the ascendant sign as far as I can see though. Or your moon sign We need an integrative analysis to critique here, we don't even have the full details to make one yet!

 

[Resonance]

You still haven't worked out your time of birth to get the ascendant sign as far as I can see though. Or your moon sign We need an integrative analysis to critique here, we don't even have the full details to make one yet!

I did though. I have the moon in leo and both the sun and ascendent in taurus. None of which are very accurate at all.

Interesting conflation

I suppose I'm not in a very good position to say that I 'feel' my way of doing things contradicts the 'energy' of Taurus, am I?

 

[ragashree]

I did though. I have the moon in leo and both the sun and ascendent in taurus. None of which are very accurate at all.


I suppose I'm not in a very good position to say that I 'feel' my way of doing things contradicts the 'energy' of Taurus, am I?

How do you feel about taking up leadership roles, being in charge in some way?

 

[Resonance]

How do you feel about taking up leadership roles, being in charge in some way?

I've done it a few times because nobody wanted to, and not been very effective because I didn't know how to inspire enthusiasm.

I think of leadership roles as an obligation, I guess.

 

[ragashree]

I've done it a few times because nobody wanted to, and not been very effective because I didn't know how to inspire enthusiasm.

I think of leadership roles as an obligation, I guess.

Kind of interesting, however; many intps would avoid leadership roles like the plague I suspect. The doing things you don't really want to from a sense of duty is certainly quite taurus-like. I would have thought Taurus sun and ascendant combined ought to signifiy a particularly strong stubborn streak, a tendency towards being dogged and single-minded, quite fixed in your beliefs, along with wanting to ascertain the practical value of anything you get involved with. Leo moon and sun in the ascendant ought to both indicate a preference to lead or go first to some degree, though Taurus isn't meant to be the most assertive and dynamic sign out there, if perhaps the most stubbon along with Scorpio. What this combination probably should signify is that you'd like to lead in an inspirational fashion, but are actually in practice better at simply getting the job done in a more low key way, possibly taking on a lot of extra responsibilities yourself.

 

[Resonance]

Kind of interesting, however; many intps would avoid leadership roles like the plague I suspect. The doing things you don't really want to from a sense of duty is certainly quite taurus-like. I would have thought Taurus sun and ascendant combined ought to signifiy a particularly strong stubborn streak, a tendency towards being dogged and single-minded, quite fixed in your beliefs, along with wanting to ascertain the practical value of anything you get involved with. Leo moon and sun in the ascendant ought to both indicate a preference to lead or go first to some degree, though Taurus isn't meant to be the most assertive and dynamic sign out there, if perhaps the most stubbon along with Scorpio. What this combination probably should signify is that you'd like to lead in an inspirational fashion, but are actually in practice better at simply getting the job done in a more low key way, possibly taking on a lot of extra responsibilities yourself.

well, not exactly... not really at all......

I mean, I guess this thread isn't the greatest example but I'm not very dogged or single-minded at all. I'm exceptionally persistent when I know (or feel) something worth achieving is only a matter of 'keep on trying' but otherwise I lose hope and patience quickly. As for leadership, it's more like the other way around... the only reason I desire leadership is to achieve things I can't on my own... but in practice I end up being more of a source of ideas than actually getting things done.

 

[Kasper]

Off topic stuff moved here

 

[ragashree]

I mean, I guess this thread isn't the greatest example but I'm not very dogged or single-minded at all.

Come to think of it, I'm not sure any thread I've yet seen you post on is the greatest example!

I'm exceptionally persistent when I know (or feel) something worth achieving is only a matter of 'keep on trying' but otherwise I lose hope and patience quickly.

Like it or not, this underlines something of a contradiction, almost a dichotomy, in your nature. The question is then whether it ties in with what astrology predicts: certainly Mars in Gemini, representing energy and motivation, is meant to be scattered, unfocussed, eager to move on to the next thing when boredom strikes, though they can also work with great intensity and focus when the subject is interesting. (It also suggests a tendency to invest energy in verbal debates and disputes!) What is your midpoint between dogged persistence in pursuit of a still-distant goal and getting frustrated, losing patience, and giving up completely? And how much time do you spend there?

As for leadership, it's more like the other way around... the only reason I desire leadership is to achieve things I can't on my own... but in practice I end up being more of a source of ideas than actually getting things done.

Hrm, I wonder how well this relates to skills as opposed to inclination? And also, when dealing with other people, if a tendency to be stubborn and assert yourself and your beliefs quite strongly can actually be an impediment to leadership because of the difficulties this puts in the way of gaining consensus and support? In this case it would make sense to be falling back on the default position of being the "ideas person".

 

[Zarathustra]

This is a classic example of reinterpreting to avoid falsification - the original Popperian reason to discount Astrology as a science (along with freudian psychoanalysis and marxist theory of history)

Who's been making the claim that astrology is a science?!?

 

[Resonance]

Come to think of it, I'm not sure any thread I've yet seen you post on is the greatest example!

Yeah, well >.>

Like it or not, this underlines something of a contradiction, almost a dichotomy, in your nature. The question is then whether it ties in with what astrology predicts: certainly Mars in Gemini, representing energy and motivation, is meant to be scattered, unfocussed, eager to move on to the next thing when boredom strikes, though they can also work with great intensity and focus when the subject is interesting. (It also suggests a tendency to invest energy in verbal debates and disputes!) What is your midpoint between dogged persistence in pursuit of a still-distant goal and getting frustrated, losing patience, and giving up completely? And how much time do you spend there?

There is no midpoint. It goes straight from one to the other, then back again when the whim strikes.

Hrm, I wonder how well this relates to skills as opposed to inclination?

I'm sure it's a little of both. I'm happy to demonstrate the skills that I do have, regardless of inclination.

And also, when dealing with other people, if a tendency to be stubborn and assert yourself and your beliefs quite strongly can actually be an impediment to leadership because of the difficulties this puts in the way of gaining consensus and support? In this case it would make sense to be falling back on the default position of being the "ideas person".

I actually don't nearly as much IRL. The internet is my outlet for venting about how wrong and incompetent everyone else is ^^' Most RL relationships aren't about being right, they're more about accommodating other people.

Who's been making the claim that astrology is a science?!?

Give an inch...