[INTJ] asking for a raise from an intj boss... tips appreciated!

[Istbkleta]

Yes, we take care of our tools.

Yes. Very well said.
Better tools get more resources allocated and worse tools are the first to go when it's time for optimization.

Btw I've seen an INFJ work in an INTJ team It was funny. I don't think he ever realized why they valued him - I think he thought they were building a relationship (the Fe way).

Sometimes INFJ perfectionism and dislike for letting team members down make them great tools. And the lowest on the emotional maintenance from all the Fe types also.
They are good at connecting people too. INTJs are bad at it and often value the INFJs' results in the relationship arena. Though INTJs still hate Fe in itself, they like the results. I'd sell that HARD if I were the OP. No decent INTJ is stupid enough not to realize how bad they are at people stuff and emotional cuddling.

 

[lostlanguage]

Yes, very good Istbkleta.. play with your "tool." Play with it all over my thread.

 

[lostlanguage]

By the way "he" is a "she!!" I thought that would be obvious. I think it probably would make a difference in how people were parsing the thread. There have been several comments about the pay differential between men and women, negotiation styles, etc. Very interesting... I assumed that was clearly the case.

I'm not offended by the way. People often think I'm a man online for some reason.

 

[lostlanguage]

You don't do your work for the boss, but for the organization. You don't so much deserve your pay, but rather earn it. (Yes, subtle semantic distinctions.)

Yes, thank you, I do earn it!!! But I do work a lot of unpaid overtime. Technically, I deserve being paid for this as well as having earned it.

Also I work for the organization but I'm paid directly by my boss's soft money. The organization does not pay my salary. This is common at universities.

People are so squeamish about pay. I don't get how this is. Work is the blood and guts of what we do every day and pay is this embarrassing secretive thing. All these taboos are basically set up so ordinary people don't demand a living wage.

 

[highlander]

After having worked to a level of becoming proficient at doing the job, having started at a level of coming in not being skilled at the job at all, I'd ask him to double it.

No

I'm hoping to develop better boundaries about "what I want" at work too.

Think about how everyone else is being treated at your place of employment and expect similar compensation treatment. This is all about supply and demand.

If you accepted the offer for what you are making and you have only been there for 8 months then I don't think you have much of any case to ask for anything. Once you have established yourself after a couple of years, you could start mentioning that you love your job but .... If you get promoted and/or the place you are working at is growing like crazy and you're important enough to your employer (lot of ifs there), you might get a big annual increase - like 15 or 25% but I wouldn't expect that to be the norm. If you think you can make more money and there is a better opportunity elsewhere, then leave. I once asked for a big raise because I thought I deserved to be paid a lot more. It was true and they knew it. They knew they would lose me if they didn't give me this big increase (it turned out to be 40%). I would not necessarily recommend this though because someone has to ask for that money and if you put yourself in that person's position, you can imagine how difficult that might be to expend the political capital to ask for something which is so much out of the norm.

Oh and whenever I hear someone talking about boundaries, it is always an INFJ. I really don't understand why you guys talk about this so much but perhaps this isn't the right context for asking that question.

 

[RDF]

The following link is to a Wall Street Journal article entitled "So You Want a Raise..." It's more or less targeted toward younger workers asking for their first raise. It doesn't specifically concern INTJ bosses, but a lot of these conventions are kind of standardized in the business world and this article spells out the basic ettiquette for handling the situation for bosses of all types: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10000872396390444320704577562910678738168.html

It also references a book and some useful websites on the subject, for futher reading.

 

[21%]

I don't have anything to contribute, except that I don't think you should be sacrificing your days off to do work. Of course, if something is really important and has to be done now or the project will collapse, that's understandable. However, if you find that you always have to work on your days off, there's something wrong with the workload. Rest days are there for a reason. Don't burn yourself out. If it goes on for a long time you're going to end up overworked, exhausted and resentful. I used to think I had to work all the time too, because I felt guilty for being paid. Luckily I've gotten over it now.

Oh and whenever I hear someone talking about boundaries, it is always an INFJ. I really don't understand why you guys talk about this so much but perhaps this isn't the right context for asking that question.

Personally I don't really like the word or concept but here's a half-baked thought: I think Fe types in general have problems with balancing their own needs and the perceived needs of others. They are very conscious of the 'bending' in a way Fi types (and Te and Ti) aren't. But you don't hear SFJs complaining about boundaries as much because they will make up their mind on how they will or will not do specific types of things and move on. For NFJs it's less clear and when they try to get to the bottom of the issue they term it "boundaries"

 

[RDF]

I don't have anything to contribute, except that I don't think you should be sacrificing your days off to do work. Of course, if something is really important and has to be done now or the project will collapse, that's understandable. However, if you find that you always have to work on your days off, there's something wrong with the workload. Rest days are there for a reason. Don't burn yourself out. If it goes on for a long time you're going to end up overworked, exhausted and resentful. I used to think I had to work all the time too, because I felt guilty for being paid. Luckily I've gotten over it now.

Good point. Some bosses regard workers who put in lots of overtime as disorganized or incompetent. They see the overtime as an indication that the worker is unable to get his work done in the allotted normal working hours. Or they figure the worker is a control freak and unable to delegate properly or function as a team player in order to spread the work out more equitably. Or they figure that the worker is setting himself up for a case of burn-out.

So you may want to talk to your boss and sound him out about how he regards all that overtime. Some bosses love workers who put in lots of overtime, but others may look at such workers with suspicion and distrust: they see excess overtime as a symptom that there's some kind of underlying misallocation of resources.

 

[Winds of Thor]

No

What do you mean, 'No'?

What is it you think [MENTION=15338]lostlanguage[/MENTION] is after?

 

[cascadeco]

Yes, thank you, I do earn it!!! But I do work a lot of unpaid overtime. Technically, I deserve being paid for this as well as having earned it.

I don't know that I agree with this. Let me explain why.

WHY do you work a lot of unpaid overtime?

I'm of the opinion that companies/organizations will try to get the most out of you for the least amount of pay - i.e. if you demonstrate that you're willing to work a lot of overtime for free, or you don't take vacation days, all without complaining or without asking beforehand about whether there will be compensation, etc, then why would a company later on decide to start paying you for the overtime or reward you for it? Why would they, if you happily did all of it prior for free?

Now: I fully understand as a new employee, sometimes going 'above and beyond' can be a good thing, if you have a good read on the situation and you know that this will help give you an edge for a salary raise/discussion a year later, or something. But to think you deserve it is going a little far imo, because you're willingly/voluntarily doing this for free! I know there are probably extenuating circumstances/reasons for you doing this, but again, why you and not others? This can get back to the delegation aspect, or simply putting your foot down so that your boss realizes that the amount of work being requested to be done cannot be done with the current resource set.

 

[Coriolis]

By the way "he" is a "she!!" I thought that would be obvious. I think it probably would make a difference in how people were parsing the thread. There have been several comments about the pay differential between men and women, negotiation styles, etc. Very interesting... I assumed that was clearly the case.

You are female? Doesn't matter, unless you have picked up cultural baggage that is limiting your ability now to assert yourself. All the advice offered so far remains valid. As to whether 8 months on the job is too soon to ask for a raise, that depends on the job, the workplace, and how much your duties and contribution have increased in that time.

Yes, thank you, I do earn it!!! But I do work a lot of unpaid overtime. Technically, I deserve being paid for this as well as having earned it.

Also I work for the organization but I'm paid directly by my boss's soft money. The organization does not pay my salary. This is common at universities.

People are so squeamish about pay. I don't get how this is. Work is the blood and guts of what we do every day and pay is this embarrassing secretive thing. All these taboos are basically set up so ordinary people don't demand a living wage.

To echo the comments of others, are you working so much overtime because you are disorganized and efficient? because you are expected to perform tasks for which you don't have needed skills and training? because you have been letting the organization take advantage of you in an attempt to make a good impression? because there really is that much work to do? Your request for a raise should be based on content of work and overall productivity, not sheer hours worked. If you are consistently having to miss vacation and weekend time to get your work done, you should address this specifically with your boss in a separate conversation. (Are your coworkers putting in extra hours as well?)

I am familiar with academic funding, but you are still not in the personal employ of your boss. He will likely not see it that way if he is INTJ. Iif anything, he may view you as in the pay of whatever sponsor has provided his soft money. We approach most things impersonally, especially at work.

You may be squeamish about pay, but be assured, the average INTJ is not, whether he/she is a boss or an employee. Your boss is unlikely to take offense that you are asking for a raise, as long as you are brief and have a solid case. Even if he refuses, he shouldn't hold it against you in any way, so don't worry about getting on his bad side for it.

 

[lostlanguage]

Oh and whenever I hear someone talking about boundaries, it is always an INFJ. I really don't understand why you guys talk about this so much but perhaps this isn't the right context for asking that question.

Boundaries... because of our "icy cools exteriors..." haha, just kidding, I read that somewhere on the web in a description of INFJ, no idea where they got that. I don't know why boundaries would be important to INFJs than any type. I think @21 has the best answer above. There is a conflict at some point between being sympathetic to others and being an individual. It's not an inherent conflict though, because INFJs like checking in on the status of relationships and it makes us feel good when those close to us are happy. Boundaries just ensure everything works (and usually when it doesn't, it's because of needing boundaries).

 

[lostlanguage]

But to think you deserve it is going a little far imo, because you're willingly/voluntarily doing this for free!

The thing about that is I agree with everything you are saying [MENTION=1206]cascadeco[/MENTION] but the wording keeps tripping me up. Yes we should be looking out for ourselves but the burden should never be solely on an individual employee to prove they deserve to be paid for work. This is why there are labor laws. For instance, the union and my company have negotiated 1.5x pay for each hour of overtime. Every weekend day must be paid 2x. It used to be in the 80s, when my dad supported us as a maintenance man, that just leaving the house on weekends to go to work for a 30 minute task was paid as the equivalent of 3 hours.

The law says it isn’t voluntary/charity, it’s overtime work and deserves to be paid. It’s defined that way not only for MY good but for the people who work everywhere, so we’re not forced to lowball each other.

To echo the comments of others, are you working so much overtime because you are disorganized and efficient? because you are expected to perform tasks for which you don't have needed skills and training? because you have been letting the organization take advantage of you in an attempt to make a good impression? because there really is that much work to do? Your request for a raise should be based on content of work and overall productivity, not sheer hours worked.

No, it's not sloppiness, there are just a lot of tasks... let's say the example of suturing a finger, even though that's not exactly the work I do... that if you stop halfway because it is 5, don't get done nearly as well. Actually, technically, I get time off for every hour I stay late to finish a project. But I rarely take it, in the beginning because I was new and didn't want my colleagues who work their asses off to get jealous or say "lostlanguage worked so hard at the beginning, not so much any more."

Another thought on giving and being an Fe…. in my previous work, freelancing, building relationships was THE way to get more pay and more referrals so I would often comp some work for a long term client as a way of saying, “our relationship matters.” In the long term, that approach has paid off, and it was one of the few things that DID pay off in this job market-- that client referred me to the current job.

Obviously I hasten to say… giving does not really benefit workers when workers are EXPECTED TO give. This strategy absolutely bombed when I was doing an internship and I think I got cheated out of a lot of time there with the promise of getting a job for working hard (which is the business model of internships). But I think when freelancing, focusing on the principle of working together "well" in addition to "well paid" helped a lot.


I am familiar with academic funding, but you are still not in the personal employ of your boss. He will likely not see it that way if he is INTJ. Iif anything, he may view you as in the pay of whatever sponsor has provided his soft mone

Lol for truth and hilarity.

 

[RDF]

[...] For instance, the union and my company have negotiated 1.5x pay for each hour of overtime. Every weekend day must be paid 2x.

[...]

Actually, technically, I get time off for every hour I stay late to finish a project. But I rarely take it, [...]

So which is it? Time-and-a-half, or compensatory time?

Overtime is handled a number of different ways. It depends on whether you’re a salaried employee, a rank-and-file worker, a manager, a contractor, a temp worker, an intern, and so on. You usually get some kind of compensation, but it depends on your employment status.

In any case, I still would sound out your employer on the matter rather than march in there and demand a raise on the basis of the overtime you’ve done. For example, if you were entitled to compensatory time and chose not to take it, that’s your problem, not his. You can’t create an obligation on his part by your decision not to take compensatory time.

I agree with the principle that providing some free overtime to an employer can earn some goodwill. But as others have suggested, I wouldn’t assume that you’ve created some kind of entitlement for yourself. If you want to handle it as an entitlement and demand compensation for overtime that you’ve done in the past, then I would document it and handle that as a separate issue, i.e. not make it part of negotiations for a raise.

OTOH, if you want to present your overtime as a goodwill gesture, then by all means present it as part of your negotiations for your raise. But don’t try to turn it into an entitlement. And as I mentioned in my previous post, sound out your employer about it. If he wasn’t previously aware that you were doing a lot of overtime, he may feel caught by surprise and start interrogating you as to why it was necessary in the first place.

To sum up: I’m just saying it’s a tricky issue. You notice that the issue of overtime isn’t mentioned in the Wall Street Journal article that I linked earlier. The question of overtime shouldn’t be the centerpiece of your negotiations for a raise or even a significant factor. Better to document the volume and quality of the work that you did, rather than making an issue of the long hours that you were physically in the building. The latter doesn’t by itself prove that your work was productive or useful.

 

[lostlanguage]

So which is it? Time-and-a-half, or compensatory time?

It's either as stipulated by the contract. Employer's choice.

But as others have suggested, I wouldn’t assume that you’ve created some kind of entitlement for yourself.

I can provide more info about me..... but at this point, I'd rather focus on HOW to ask for a raise-- the language--- and not the why. Because to some extent, the why is due to multiple factors. Every boss or employee or both will have a different opinion on what deserves a raise. In addition, I'm very much interested in learning how others ask for these things. What works, what doesn't work, in body language, posture, phrasing, negotiating etc...

 

[RDF]

[...]I can provide more info about me..... but at this point, I'd rather focus on HOW to ask for a raise-- the language--- and not the why. Because to some extent, the why is due to multiple factors. Every boss or employee or both will have a different opinion on what deserves a raise.

I would go with the Wall Street Journal article and find ways to document or describe quantitatively or qualitatively the excellent work you've been doing. Your OP was strong and enthusiastic in its description of how great a worker you are, but it mainly relied on an elaboration of the overtime issue to demonstrate that you give way more than 100%. The problem is that overtime is an indirect metric: it only says you were present; it doesn't actually indicate how much work you did or the importance or priority of the work. Using overtime as a metric can be useful to show that you're giving more than the minimum; but also look for other metrics (ones that are more direct than overtime) to describe how hard a worker you are: for example, how many patients you handle in a week, how many sutures you do in a week, etc. Go to your co-workers and immediate supervisors and ask them what your strengths are, or where you excel compared to other contract or temp workers. They may give you some interesting ideas for additional ways to describe or quantify your work contribution.

Look for additional metrics: Additional ways to quantify the heavy workload you've been carrying.

 

[RDF]

[...]I can provide more info about me..... but at this point, I'd rather focus on HOW to ask for a raise-- the language--- and not the why. Because to some extent, the why is due to multiple factors. Every boss or employee or both will have a different opinion on what deserves a raise. In addition, I'm very much interested in learning how others ask for these things. What works, what doesn't work, in body language, posture, phrasing, negotiating etc...

Okay, I guess I was still talking about the "why" in my previous post. And you fleshed out your post a bit.

As for the "how,” the Wall Street Journal article pretty much covers that:

Next, determine the best way to approach your manager. A performance review is a natural place to have this discussion, says Mr. Hopkinson. But if your review is months away or your company doesn't have one, approach your boss in person and ask to set a time to discuss your performance.

When you sit down with your boss, "be armed with 'Here are the reasons I deserve it.' They need to be tangible points," says Ms. Crawford. Have metrics that attest to your work, like an amount you saved the company through cost-cutting measures or the number of clients you've brought in.

To spell it out a bit more: Request a special meeting--a performance review--as a time for this discussion. Prepare your pitch, but also prepare for a wide-ranging discussion of your role at the organization. After all, a performance review isn’t just about you asking for more money; it’s also a time for the boss to evaluate you and tell you about your strengths and weaknesses and suggest areas where you may need to improve.

Do an internet search on performance reviews if you’re not sure how those things work.

Finally, be business-like. You’re pitching a dollars-and-cents business proposition. So treat it seriously.

 

[lostlanguage]

Now we're talkin'. I appreciate it, Fineline.

Well, I already wrote in to ask for my raise. Response to come.

 

[RDF]

Now we're talkin'. I appreciate it, Fineline.

Well, I already wrote in to ask for my raise. Response to come.

Good luck!

 

[lostlanguage]

Yeah, thread over. I got my raise.... I'm not sure from some of the comments on here if many people consider this a GOOD thing.... but to those of you who did thanks for playing.