Arguing the Existence or Non-existence of God--the thread that never ends

[Luke O]

I wish magic was real. Or that I knew how to access it, if it is real.

That's what I'm trying to find out, it's an ongoing experiment!

 

[Coriolis]

I wish magic was real. Or that I knew how to access it, if it is real.

Magic is real. It's just not what you think it is.

 

[Luke O]

Magic is real. It's just not what you think it is.

What is your experience of magic? Just curious.

 

[Obsidius]

There’s more to it than that. Aside from the fact that the universe has been proven to have a definite beginning and is expanding leading to a definite end it is material. We know material things have a life cycle. Also the concept of a non-created God was ascribed those qualities long before it became convenient. The fact of the matter is anything that makes a claim to exists prior to the existence of the universe would need these qualities in light of what we know about the nature of the universe.



6 . Synthetic necessity obtains where a statement of the form “Necessarily p” (or “It cannot be that so-and-so”) is true and neither it, nor p, is analytic. For example, “Nothing can be green and red all over” is presumably a case of synthetic necessity if the concept of being not red is not contained in the concept of being green. “Necessarily, bachelors are unmarried”, on the other hand, is not a case of synthetic necessity because it is analytic that bachelors are unmarried.7-The Necessity of God’s Existence 1 Daniel von Wachter



Already addressed this



Occam's razor the fewer assumptions that are made, the better. I’d like to know what assumptions about the concept of God need to be made that a supposed Universe without God are not. We are not talking about a specific God or doctrine just the concept of a God that is omnipresent, omniscient and omnipotent.

The Universe has not been proven to have a beginning, rather a catalytic even from which spawned laws of physics etc etc, but the question of what caused that event is what's being discussed, not the event itself. So, this is hardly a "beginning", I mean, sure, it was the beginning of someone, but so was this morning's dawn, it's not relevant to the conversation. Material things of our experienced nature, or rather, within our current/local understanding of physics have a life cycle, that's entropy, so the things within a closed system devolve into chaos over time, yes, but we're not talking about these things, we're talking about the system, and the beginning of this system. You cannot attribute it or characterise it as a "material thing". The fact is that we have no idea what came before the Universe, what caused that event, we are all agnostic to it, and any assertion about the cause is one out of ignorance. All we know is that thing must have the capability to create the Universe, that's it, "omnipotence, omnipresence and omniscience" are not required, therefore characterising the cause of the Universe as such is an unjustifiable assumption. Also, the assumptions made about the aforementioned God that are not necessarily applicable to the cause of the Universe, like I said before. The cause of the Universe needs only the capability to create the Universe, not any of the three traits that this mentioned God has. First of all, omnipotence means the capability to do all, omniscience is to be in every possible place, omniscience is to know every conceivable thing. Well, material cannot "know". Also, the only argument that can be made for "omnipotence" being applicable, is if you want to play a semantics game and imply that the "omni" means all in the Universe. Which would be a poor attempt.

 

[indra]

People are deeply uninspired in their pursuit for knowledge.

Which is fine and dandy, so long as you proclaim ignorance, as those seeking do.

I wanna be Jackie Onassis
I wanna wear a pair of dark sunglasses
I wanna be - Jackie O oh oh oh please don't die!

I should get out of bed...

 

[Bush]

What is your experience of magic? Just curious.

To put it in the most stale way possible, I'd see magic as cause-and-effect where the relationship between 'cause' and 'effect' isn't readily apparent or solidified.

How the hell did the lady get sawed in half and still survive? How do presents get under the tree at Christmas? How did that cancer get into remission, despite all odds? What's in the "black box" between this particular sinusoidal signal and its pulsating output?

 

[GarrotTheThief]

I absolutely believe the universe is intelligently benevolent because I don't have to be alive for ever.

I just have to struggle to stay alive as long as I can even though it would be easier to jump off the ledge and then die knowing I fought the good fight by carrying my own weight without ending it like a coward.

The boss man can't follow me into the after life. No sir. Souls without bodies cannot be slaves.


For that I'm thankful.

 

[Coriolis]

What is your experience of magic? Just curious.

Imaging what you want to happen, and turning that into reality.

An oversimplification, but the practical gist.

 

[ygolo]

Imaging what you want to happen, and turning that into reality.

An oversimplification, but the practical gist.

This.

But I not as well versed in it as many of our NTJs seem to be.

 

[Cellmold]

"Believe in the milkman!"

"But...he's real"

"Exactly. Now! Believe in God"

"Easy."

 

[AOA]

Easiest way out of this mantra is to ask yourselves.

What has God given you?

I own everything. //case closed

 

[Jaguar]

Easiest way out of this mantra is to ask yourselves.

What has God given you?

Define God.

 

[Luke O]

The Ark as described would not be able to hold the land-based species of the Earth to preserve their biodiversity.

Including the kangaroos.

 

[Luke O]

To put it in the most stale way possible, I'd see magic as cause-and-effect where the relationship between 'cause' and 'effect' isn't readily apparent or solidified.

How the hell did the lady get sawed in half and still survive? How do presents get under the tree at Christmas? How did that cancer get into remission, despite all odds? What's in the "black box" between this particular sinusoidal signal and its pulsating output?

Order from chaos?

 

[Luke O]

Imaging what you want to happen, and turning that into reality.

An oversimplification, but the practical gist.

One thing that the Wiccans quote when casting spells is "As I will it, so mote it be."

 

[Lark]

The Ark as described would not be able to hold the land-based species of the Earth to preserve their biodiversity.

Including the kangaroos.

Alternatively if it wasnt all the planet but a part of it or it was a sci fi arc perserving gene streams or a straight up miracle. Take your pick.

Its meant to be a sort of magical tale, although I bet that Jews dont sweat the literalism as much as the Christians, there wasnt the same history surrounding solo scripturalism or even scripturalism per se in the Jewish tradition.

I love a lot of the Yiddish and Jewish wit and wisdom or story telling traditions and I think if you read them and then read the scriptures it all makes sense in a way that it otherwise would not, it all arises from a living community and living traditional faith reflecting the same, which is all reflected in ideas about each living person forming a letter in a living scripture, the whole idea that "those who begin burning books will end burning people" etc. etc.

 

[Luke O]

Alternatively if it wasnt all the planet but a part of it or it was a sci fi arc perserving gene streams or a straight up miracle. Take your pick.

Its meant to be a sort of magical tale, although I bet that Jews dont sweat the literalism as much as the Christians, there wasnt the same history surrounding solo scripturalism or even scripturalism per se in the Jewish tradition.

I love a lot of the Yiddish and Jewish wit and wisdom or story telling traditions and I think if you read them and then read the scriptures it all makes sense in a way that it otherwise would not, it all arises from a living community and living traditional faith reflecting the same, which is all reflected in ideas about each living person forming a letter in a living scripture, the whole idea that "those who begin burning books will end burning people" etc. etc.

I wish it was seen more as a magical tale i.e. a bad version of Lord Of The Rings, but far too many believe all this stuff actually happened, in the exact way it was written down. Without any loss/change of detail when the tale got passed from shepherd to shepherd until it got to someone who was able to write...

The Bible is an interesting insight into ancient cultures, but its authenticity has been brought into question many times. It does read better as a collection of fictional stories tbh.

 

[Avocado]

What is your experience of magic? Just curious.

She is a particle physicist. She knows quantum stuff.

 

[Lark]

I wish it was seen more as a magical tale i.e. a bad version of Lord Of The Rings, but far too many believe all this stuff actually happened, in the exact way it was written down. Without any loss/change of detail when the tale got passed from shepherd to shepherd until it got to someone who was able to write...

The Bible is an interesting insight into ancient cultures, but its authenticity has been brought into question many times. It does read better as a collection of fictional stories tbh.

I dont really share the view of the scriptures you do, although I was suggesting that getting hung up on the literalism and solo scripture is deeply mistaken.

If you consider some significant atheists from long ago Marx, Fuerbach or other more contemporary ones Fromm, Vernon they rightly love the text, it is a foundation text of western civilisation, influencing language, thinking, conceptualisation and mind but none of that is important to the people who belittle and dismiss it for their own reasons, usually to do with very contemporaneous experiences with very contemporaneous, and contemptably ignorant, individuals.

The struggle between bad religion and bad atheism is a perfect example of ignorant change facing off against ignorant opposition.

 

[BluRoses]

Define God.

How many times are you going to ask that? YOU define God, you nutty cat!