Arguing the Existence or Non-existence of God--the thread that never ends

[Mole]

If you were better informed you would think differently. At least I hope you would.

This is indeed why I come here, my dear Lark, I come here in the hope you will better inform me. Don't be shy. Point out where I am wrong. Point out the faults in my tone. And instead put me on a better path. What better work could you do than to reach out across the globe and offer a helping hand to an antipodean.

 

[Coriolis]

.... getting back to the Flood briefly, my assessment is that it's likely there was a local flood of huge significance (since it is reflected in various cultural myth/storytelling), but the evidence isn't there to support global flooding and seems physically unlikely due to all the constraints of ark-creation + acquiring and keeping that variety of animals in a fairly isolated environment.

[Even Aronofsky tried to deal with this in "Noah," he actually put all the animals on the boat to sleep using some kind of inhaled drug, although I have no idea what that would have been that Noah could have actually concocted...]

IME, it doesn't matter whether these stories are factually and historically true. Each has something to teach humanity, about God, themselves, and their place in the universe. You don't have to accept these lessons, but their value does not depend on their literal veracity. No one discounts the morals of Aesop's fables just because there really wasn't a foot race between a tortoise and a hare.

 

[Mole]

IME, it doesn't matter whether these stories are factually and historically true. Each has something to teach humanity, about God, themselves, and their place in the universe.

They had absolutely no idea of our place in the universe. They did not know the Earth was round. They did not know the Earth went round the Sun. They had no idea the Sun was part of the Milky Way galaxy with 100 billion stars. And they had no idea there are 100 billion galaxies.

And with an absolute ignorance of our place in the physical universe you want us to believe they knew our place in the moral universe.

In fact they were so moral they practised child sacrifice, the enslavement of women, war, rape, torture and killing, were prevalent. All santified by totally ignorant, immoral religious stories.

 

[Coriolis]

They had absolutely no idea of our place in the universe. They did not know the Earth was round. They did not know the Earth went round the Sun. They had no idea the Sun was part of the Milky Way galaxy with 100 billion stars. And they had no idea there are 100 billion galaxies.

And with an absolute ignorance of our place in the physical universe you want us to believe they knew our place in the moral universe.

In fact they were so moral they practised child sacrifice, the enslavement of women, war, rape, torture and killing, were prevalent. All santified by totally ignorant, immoral religious stories.

Don't tell me what I want you to believe. You don't know that. I am pointing out the nature of the questions that stories like these are capable of addressing. That distinction is independent of how well you or anyone likes the answers. You don't have to agree with "slow and steady wins the race" to recognize it as the moral of the fable of the Tortoise and the Hare, whether or not their footrace actually happened.

 

[ColonelGadaafi]

There is no point in debating god's existence rationally. It's a spiritual and belief-based commitment. By that I mean Faith. I used to be atheist and argue against the existence of a god, because I thought the belief itself was not logical. But the belief in the existence of god is not based on a rational conclusion, the basis of god isn't logical or rational. It's intuitive and spiritual. I can never say that god exists logically or rationally for me. I've never experienced god that way. But I can say that I've experienced god intuitively and spiritually. You can say that my perception itself is influenced by placebo-like affect of belief, you can say that it's some form of vague mental process. But to me god is faith based commitment. And if people insist and defer in belief, I'm fine with that. It's really a matter of faith.

 

[Totenkindly]

IME, it doesn't matter whether these stories are factually and historically true. Each has something to teach humanity, about God, themselves, and their place in the universe. You don't have to accept these lessons, but their value does not depend on their literal veracity. No one discounts the morals of Aesop's fables just because there really wasn't a foot race between a tortoise and a hare.

Yeah, of course I agree with this and have made these same points myself for some years. It's what I also have taught my children.

I'm arguing in the framework where a certain very vocal and influential segment of Christian faith in the US is demanding that these stories be literally true and has an "all or nothing" view (e.g., "if they aren't literally true, what value are they?"), and their demands radiate into various sectors of daily life and politics.

 

[prplchknz]

I wish the jews had secretly written an religious text after the christians came out making fun of the christians. oh this sounds horrible, but i don't mean in a bad way just in a rib jabbing jolly good time way.

 

[Avocado]

There is no point in debating god's existence rationally. It's a spiritual and belief-based commitment. By that I mean Faith. I used to be atheist and argue against the existence of a god, because I thought the belief itself was not logical. But the belief in the existence of god is not based on a rational conclusion, the basis of god isn't logical or rational. It's intuitive and spiritual. I can never say that god exists logically or rationally for me. I've never experienced god that way. But I can say that I've experienced god intuitively and spiritually. You can say that my perception itself is influenced by placebo-like affect of belief, you can say that it's some form of vague mental process. But to me god is faith based commitment. And if people insist and defer in belief, I'm fine with that. It's really a matter of faith.

Do you believe in a supreme being who directly influences reality?

 

[Avocado]

Yeah, of course I agree with this and have made these same points myself for some years. It's what I also have taught my children.

I'm arguing in the framework where a certain very vocal and influential segment of Christian faith in the US is demanding that these stories be literally true and has an "all or nothing" view (e.g., "if they aren't literally true, what value are they?"), and their demands radiate into various sectors of daily life and politics.

That said, I believe that the morals found in that book come from an earlier time and should never be used as a main arguement for goodness.

 

[ColonelGadaafi]

Do you believe in a supreme being who directly influences reality?

Yes. I can't explain it, but Yes.

 

[Avocado]

Yes. I can't explain it, but Yes.

Does this Supreme Being respond to prayer, and if so, does the being prefer quantity or quality?

 

[Tellenbach]

I once sent a PM to "God" and he answered back, but I can't be sure if it's THE GOD.

 

[Pionart]

God as the eternal source from which all creation springs and lives through. I wouldn't even begin to comprehend what it means to say such a thing exists. I believe that the source can be known by every particle and every wave, as that which allows it to exist, its requisite. And all existence, from this universe to those that have no meaningful existence to this universe, all exist through this source. Due to the fractal nature of creation, we can see the echo of God in all things, and through meditation on this we transcend to higher levels of understanding.

 

[indra]

Belief is a broken will to live.

 

[Mole]

Don't tell me what I want you to believe. You don't know that. I am pointing out the nature of the questions that stories like these are capable of addressing. That distinction is independent of how well you or anyone likes the answers. You don't have to agree with "slow and steady wins the race" to recognize it as the moral of the fable of the Tortoise and the Hare, whether or not their footrace actually happened.

We are not talking about the tortoise and the hare, we are talking about God ordering Abraham to tie up his son Isaac on a sacrificial altar and stand over him with a butcher's knife ready to cut him up alive.

 

[Beorn]

We are not talking about the tortoise and the hare, we are talking about God ordering Abraham to tie up his son Isaac on a sacrificial altar and stand over him with a butcher's knife ready to cut him up alive.

So strange that you obsess over an event where God DIDN'T kill someone when he's responsible for 150,000 people dying every day.

 

[GarrotTheThief]

Mortality is a two way street. One can either be angry about it or grateful. It all depends on one's personal preferences. Do you want to do the same thing for eternity or are you grateful for change?

That being said, I find it ironic that people don't question death as much as belief. Are you so certain death is an end and not a beginning? On what foundation of logic is that based on? There is no cycle in nature which ever seizes to be. Why assume that cycles of cycles end then? It seems illogical.

 

[SD45T-2]

 

[GarrotTheThief]

a seed mourns its loss when it becomes a blade of grass
a blade of grass mourns its loss when it becomes the soil
the soil mourns its loss when it becomes many things
a single thing becomes many things
what is there to mourn?

Still, we will mourn because a life without mourning is like a life without joy
we will honor the ones who have gone
we will honor the ones we leave behind
but we will always be with the ones we love

what more is there than that?
#noobzenmasterwannabe

 

[Coriolis]

We are not talking about the tortoise and the hare, we are talking about God ordering Abraham to tie up his son Isaac on a sacrificial altar and stand over him with a butcher's knife ready to cut him up alive.

They are equivalent in that both are morality tales, though the morals are quite different. I brought up our friend Aesop because sometimes it is easier to understand an abstract concept when illustrated by a simpler example.