[ENTP] Are any ENTPs actually interested in being vulnerable?

[Cellmold]

A F has the same capability of loving people, like he has to hate people. Most Fs tho will never understand that.

I understand this well, which is why some of the most dangerous criminals are often F's not T's.

Of course most T's dont understand that they are not as impartial as they would like to believe and you will often find a corner of consideration that they will avoid because it is an unwelcome truth to their minds, just as they have a knack for pointing out unwelcome, but necessary truths for others.

When I say this of course I dont mean being rude or impolite, but the tearing of romantic blankets that sometimes get raised around perceptions of the world.

 

[entropie]

I understand this well, which is why some of the most dangerous criminals are often F's not T's.

Of course most T's dont understand that they are not as impartial as they would like to believe and you will often find a corner of consideration that they will avoid because it is an unwelcome truth to their minds, just as they have a knack for pointing out unwelcome, but necessary truths for others.

When I say this of course I dont mean being rude or impolite, but the tearing of romantic blankets that sometimes get raised around perceptions of the world.

Yes, 100% the truth. You should have been there when we had that thread about 'real objectivity' and some people claimed that they were actually robots metaphorically spoken. That they have in every situation 100% control over the logical conclusion.

The majore joke is that rationality, logic and reason is a human construct, a model from philosophy. If it was the epitome of T-ness, what if some day (hard to imagine but not impossible) there was a different form than logic being our drive for self-preservation. I mean if quantum physics is right, you cant even say that the universe is logical and therefore you cant say that logic is the basis to our existence.

I wouldnt blame anyone who finds peace in thinking he was 100% logical and cold-blooded, I would only accuse him of lacking the ability to look beyond his own existance and see the big picture. Here is a common mistake I do, I often start arguements with stubborn people, who by all means follow one single clear line of action (like behaving like Sheldon Cooper). What I forget tho is that not everyone has the wish to being versatile and knowledgeable in a lot of fields and directions like I do. Some people are just happy with their fields and excel in it to great heigths.

The same goes for the dealing with the self. I am always surprised when F-types or T-types do nothing on this forum but analyzing their own type. This never really intrested me cause I know what makes me a T-type. The only thing that intrests me is how I am perceived by others and what I do to others and thru that I want to learn to better myself (to a certain extent only of course ). I find being an explorer, is the most desireable goal for me in life.

Ok that all has not much to do with your post no more, so I beg your pardon, but I completly lost the red line. )

 

[Cellmold]

Yes, 100% the truth. You should have been there when we had that thread about 'real objectivity' and some people claimed that they were actually robots metaphorically spoken. That they have in every situation 100% control over the logical conclusion.

The majore joke is that rationality, logic and reason is a human construct, a model from philosophy. If it was the epitome of T-ness, what if some day (hard to imagine but not impossible) there was a different form than logic being our drive for self-preservation. I mean if quantum physics is right, you cant even say that the universe is logical and therefore you cant say that logic is the basis to our existence.

I wouldnt blame anyone who finds peace in thinking he was 100% logical and cold-blooded, I would only accuse him of lacking the ability to look beyond his own existance and see the big picture. Here is a common mistake I do, I often start arguements with stubborn people, who by all means follow one single clear line of action (like behaving like Sheldon Cooper). What I forget tho is that not everyone has the wish to being versatile and knowledgeable in a lot of fields and directions like I do. Some people are just happy with their fields and excel in it to great heigths.

The same goes for the dealing with the self. I am always surprised when F-types or T-types do nothing on this forum but analyzing their own type. This never really intrested me cause I know what makes me a T-type. The only thing that intrests me is how I am perceived by others and what I do to others and thru that I want to learn to better myself (to a certain extent only of course ). I find being an explorer, is the most desireable goal for me in life.

Ok that all has not much to do with your post no more, so I beg your pardon, but I completly lost the red line. )

I agree these are some great points for consideration and dont worry if you lost the red line, I go on random tirades all the time, besides what you said was completely relevant.

 

[Reverie]

Critical ? Was he insecure about your relationship or / and frustrated by his job ? (throwing darts in the dark here so I m not making actual assumptions, just asking)

No reason to be insecure and aren't we all. Just critical.

 

[EcK]

No reason to be insecure and aren't we all. Just critical.

I find people are rarely critical without a reason. Come on. you can do better than that.

 

[entropie]

You would be surprised if you knew what people do without a reason

 

[EcK]

You would be surprised if you knew what people do without a reason

After an extensive study of cognitive biases. I don't think so.
Also I am rarely surprised by people. Though I am surprised by genuinely 'random' events.

 

[entropie]

After an extensive study of cognitive biases. I don't think so.
Also I am rarely surprised by people. Though I am surprised by genuinely 'random' events.

I have choosen to learn to be surprised again by people. I am risking my relationship with my Fi girlfriend thru that but I dont want 'the learning about life' to just end at some point, with no alternative. My gf is absolute and I am sure that her way is a way to get happy in life. But its not my way and if she cant be intrested to be more flexible about her absolutes, it will end at some point.

I dont want to be happy in life. I love the sadness

 

[Tewt]

From my experience of living with an ENTP you must have just come accros a rotten egg. My ex was very loyal with his close circle of friends. In terms of being faithful he was very. Had always been in long term committed relationships. Loyalty if termed as keeping a secret, no. Some people just can't keep secrets. ;D
I think there's a world of difference between having a vulnerable side and showing it. Maybe some aren't so comfortable showing that side of themselves. However in my experience my ex was always very candid and revealing when discussing things with me. I think he could distance himself if it came to himself and view himself quite objectively, to the extent that is possible to anyone. To people who were not in his inner circle all you mentioned in the above quote would apply. People found him very brash, hotheaded and slightly suspect. I don't think it was a fair or correct assessment. The beef I had with my ex was the fact he used to indulge in what I'd describe as nitpicking and naggging and it was constant, concerning pretty much everything when it came to me. I don't know if that's a common ENTP problem, being thought of as too critical. It's sometimes said to be an INFJ problem...but I definetly met someone who trumped me on that...He was super critical and I found that too exhausting to live with, but hey it's not easy to live with yourself if your critical side drives away people you care for. It's hard to be prickly... so I harbor no ill will.
I thought generally speaking he was charming, caring and had an endearing puckish quality to him. But at the same time he was often sad and unhappy, somewhat jaded and had a hard time getting positive response from people because of his unconventionality and disregard for people's feelings or social graces (This particular specimen of man is closely akin to Kenny from Kenny vs. Spenny...). Still that said, one of the finest people I've known.

This was a pretty accurate description of some of my younger experiences in relationships. In light of the the question in the OP, I never consciously thought about being vulnerable. Never, that I can think of. I generally choose my words wisely, while saying what I want. This in turn lead to me being ultra sensitive to those who found me critical. Although that sensitivity didn't happen until I was much older.

 

[Istbkleta]

When I say this of course I ... mean ... the tearing of romantic blankets that sometimes get raised around perceptions of the world.

This is a very noble goal. I don't think it would be easy to find an NT who would say otherwise.

I am afraid though most people might be hard pressed to find the extra resources to cope with frequent, albeit much needed, paradigm shifts.

It's the standard reaction to try to avoid pain and danger.

Sometimes these situations might trick people into working against themselves. Sometimes they sense they are too fragile to stir up trouble.

It's normal to be frustrated when you've put so much efforts into something that others refuse to acknowledge or develop in themselves.

An interesting twist would be to imagine the way the average NT feels when confronted with people who refuse to push emotions aside and strive for objectivity. I think most people forget this requires effort. Objectivity is a goal of a comparable scope as:

loyalty, compassion, vulnerability and ... honesty.

 

[themarlins]

I think its illogical to equate Vulnerability with Closeness in the first place.

You can be very close to people without being outwardly vulnerable.

 

[James Woods]

I have an extensive screening process before I can be vulnerable, and I've been hurt very badly recently so it's unlikely I will be "vulnerable" as you would like for a long time.

 

[Ahousan]

I have to echo the consensus here: ENTP's suck pretty bad at being vulnerable. I'm having a hard time matching genders here, but as a male ENTP (I have no idea about females) I must concede that I didn't (and still somewhat don't) understand what being vulnerable even meant. My opinion is that you INFJ's come loaded with this vulnerability programming that allows you some strange pleasure in exposing yourself to people who prove themselves worthy. I don't even think I had a conscious fear of being exposed, I just didn't even understand there was something hidden until recently. It was like an act I'd kept up so long that I forgot there was something behind the curtain. It's a slow, arduous process, but we can be quite vulnerable... just don't expect that to happen overnight.

 

[Ozones]

I think its illogical to equate Vulnerability with Closeness in the first place.

You can be very close to people without being outwardly vulnerable.

As your S cousin, i agree

 

[phdenial]

In true ENTP style, I read most of the original post, and some of the following comments.But I lost patience and got very annoyed.

I'm sorry OP, but this kind of complaining about an ENTP (which is essentially a character attack about not being vulnerable) is like getting annoyed because my eyes automatically shut when you try to stick a pencil in my iris. I think someone on this thread said F people are good at being haters, too. Word.

The NFs I've known have all gone through great violin-playing woe-is-me accusations of hurting them by trying to protect myself from the crap they are pulling (usually trying to avoid responsibility about some action on their part). We can't even ASK a question about it because we are accused of character attack, even when all we really want to do is understand. So, NF OP, tell me...how does it feel to be typecast? Sucks, doesn't it? Then quit pulling this crap and then lambasting a whole group of other people for doing the thing you are doing. Ridiculous.

Loyalty? How about spending 5 years being caregiver to my dying grandparents while keeping a 4.0 GPA in a PhD program? My F sister was off sobbing tears of loss and writing poetry while I was washing urine off of people who I actually cared about. And I was able to keep my emotions in check so that I could achieve all of these things, while still caring in ways that mattered. Oh yes, and she turned on me in the end, too.

Someone here said that INTJs are better matches for ENTPs. My sample size is small-ish, but personally I have to agree. I have had hellish, abusive INFJ relationships (at work and personal), but have had wonderful relationships with INTJs. NFs never allowed me to be who I was, yet I was expected to forgive them for abuse. Kinda like the tone of the OP here.

 

[statuesquechica]

I would have to agree there is some pretty ugly ENTP bashing going on by the OP. I don't think it's fair to extrapolate so many negative traits from such a small sample (one or two relationships) to an entire MBTI type. There are soooo many factors to be considered in any relationship that attributing it all to type isn't rational. I do understand this was the OP' s experience; mine was very different.

My ENTP ex was very compassionate and had a real passion for social justice issues. When I had gained his trust he shared his vulnerabilities with me, even after we broke up. He continues to be a support for me, and I for him. Of course he has his faults, as we all do, but I always found his compassion and loyalty to be some of his strongest traits.

 

[yeghor]

I have to echo the consensus here: ENTP's suck pretty bad at being vulnerable. I'm having a hard time matching genders here, but as a male ENTP (I have no idea about females) I must concede that I didn't (and still somewhat don't) understand what being vulnerable even meant. My opinion is that you INFJ's come loaded with this vulnerability programming that allows you some strange pleasure in exposing yourself to people who prove themselves worthy. I don't even think I had a conscious fear of being exposed, I just didn't even understand there was something hidden until recently. It was like an act I'd kept up so long that I forgot there was something behind the curtain. It's a slow, arduous process, but we can be quite vulnerable... just don't expect that to happen overnight.

I want, around me, people that I'll have no fear to remove my armor and be my true self... I feel relieved when people bestow me with such an atmosphere... cause the armor weighs heavy...

 

[A window to the soul]

Not anymore. Forget it!

 

[Eilonwy]

Loyalty? How about spending 5 years being caregiver to my dying grandparents while keeping a 4.0 GPA in a PhD program? My F sister was off sobbing tears of loss and writing poetry while I was washing urine off of people who I actually cared about. And I was able to keep my emotions in check so that I could achieve all of these things, while still caring in ways that mattered. Oh yes, and she turned on me in the end, too.

You have my admiration and sympathy for caring for your grandparents for 5 years. Especially while going to school and maintaining a 4.0. It's a difficult and mostly thankless job.

 

[1487610420]

NFs never allowed me to be who I was, yet I was expected to forgive them for abuse.

QFT.