Archetypes of the Functions

[Eric B]

My examples:

When thinking of what my ego's main goals were, and also what it fights so violently against, these seven points I had recently put together on the apparent purpose of life suddenly fit in, especially regarding the shadows:
http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=43891&p=1483290#post1483290

Hero(dom.)
The emotionally positive sense of heroically solving a problem is best captured by the rational mind through an internal impersonal sequential standard in which things make sense to me.
•Great example: a lot of stuff my ego always fought against in the 7 points now becomes palatable, because it fit into a framework that made sense.

Parent (aux.)
The emotionally positive sense of authoritatively supporting others is best captured by the rational mind through an external perception of abstract images that deals in multiple possibilities.
•I like to look at different ideas, and make proposals to share with and hopefully help others understand (such as these theories).

Puer/Puella (tertiary)
The emotionally positive sense of child-like relief is best captured by the rational mind through an internal concrete storehouse of images.
•Hence, the nostalgia over past places and experiences. I get such a feeling of innocence.

Anima/animus (inferior)
The emotionally positive sense of connecting with life is best captured by the rational mind (though generally poorly) through an external personal value standard.
•Hence, wanting to fit in with people, feeling inferior in groups, feeling torn between helping others and personal dominant function activities.

Opposing Personality (backup)
Negative emotions connected with opposition or obstruction will often trigger or be triggered by an external standard imposed on the dominant internal perspective of impersonal sequential judgment. The ego then uses these standards to oppose others, or back up the dominant internal standard.
•Thinking agreed upon logical decision are stupid if they don't follow personal frameworks such as symmetry, which I enjoy just for its own sake.

What is trying to be brought into consciousness is the need for external efficiency, of course, or at least awareness of that need; especially if you want others to profit from your ideas or works.

Witch/Senex (negative parent)
Negative emotions connected to extreme crankiness, as a negated authoritarian figure, will often trigger, or somethimes be triggered by internal or universalized abstract images shutting out the external data. This is then used to cast blame and otherwise attack others.
•Become very depressed and bitter when I notice sequences of events that fit internalized negative patterns.

What is trying to be brought into consciousness through this, in my case, seems to be what I have outlined in the 7 points. Pain and inequity are inevitable in this world (for, according to those premises, the purpose of this world is not to have one's own way and everything be perfect anyway).
(Now, the task is to how to learn to deal with things better).

Trickster (negative child)
Emotions connected with that of a bad child; either dealing with one, playing tricks and binding the ego, or then being one to get back at or rebel against the threat, will often come through external concrete data.
•Trying to trap others who make me feel bound, by pointing out that they either do or condone the same things in themselves or others. Again, I have noticed that there is a heavy emotional weight behind this, which annoys others who wonder why I force the issue of what others do so much, apparently more than others. I feel like "nothing", "having to live in a world' where others get away with what I have been chastised for.

What I believe is trying to be brought into consciousness, is what I have long fought against, and my ST parents and others were so inclined to state: "Life is what it is" (including unfairness or inequity). Enjoy the life and world God has given you even with the inequity.

Daemon (negative anima)
Emotions associated with evil, either someone trying to destroy the ego, or the ego in turn trying to destroy a threat, will often come through internal personal values, which normally feel very intrusive to the dominant internal perspective.
•Wanting to attack a stance seen as "self-righteous", involving personal or universal values. Like now, I have been having off and on spats with a group of Christian conservatives, who like to boldly blame and scold a whole race of people for all their "dysfunctional behavior" they [still!] see as causing the nation's problems. So this is both a direct attack on the ego (through the group I identify with), as well as provoking a sense of jealosy that they seem to have such a self-contentment (that I don't feel I really have) in believing they are morally upright, and all problems are everyone else's fault. (While then actually accusing those they are blaming of the same thing! And there are not a lot of people standing up and challenging this). Again, I feel like "nothing" in comparison.
(BTW, Meanwhile, on boards like this, I had largely forgotten about race, as it is laregly irrelevant, as we discuss more legitimate personal differences, along the lines of typology and temperament It's a shame certain others out there have to keep that nonsense alive, as antibiblical as it actually is, even!).
So yet again, there is considerable emotional energy behind this that others say is a waste of time. Sometimes, consciously, I do realize it is a waste of time.

What is trying to be brought into consciousness that the ego is fighting against, is the need for a personal ethics system that can be contented in itself, and not dependent on others (the vulnerable "inferior" perspective). And again, the true purpose of life, and what is really important. Then, others' values won't feel as threatening.

 

[Thisica]

But I thought that the archetypes are not eternal, since homo sapiens has only been here for at most half a million years...or am I taking things too literally?

 

[Eric B]

"Arche-" doesn't mean necessarily "eternal"; just "ancient". In fact, looking ut up, it traces to "archon", which means both "ruler", as well as "beginning", with an apparent emphasis on the former. So it's an "original pattern from which copies are made".
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=archon

So it might even mean more "ruling pattern" than "ancient" pattern.

 

[Eric B]

Expanding further upon this, based on some of the tuff I had to grapple with in using the archetypes to determine my type.

In order to tell inferior Fe from witch/senex Fe, you can't just look at outward reactions. Both can be "critical", "sharp", or "histrionic".
What determines the complex are the emotionally freighted images, memories, beliefs, ideas, etc. playing through the person's mind (likely behind the scenes, below consciousness), driving the reaction.
This is what should really be emphasized.

The inferior is what we project "shoulds" with at others, in order to cover up our own vulnerable deep feeling of inferiority. So the images will be of inferiority. Like for Fe, it will be fear of being a social failure.
The witch/senex is almost the exact opposite; being very confident to the point of authoritarianism, and being cranky from feeling negation of this authority by others.
Hence, the images of feeling like a cranky old person yelling a whole lot of negative scolding at people who aren't listening.

For the Opposing Personality, I mentioned somewhere the sense of being like a sassy woman bucking the power systems through Te. That's another "emotionally freighted image" associated with the complex. I've also mentioned feeling like I was pounding an opposing view into the ground with Fi. That's an emotionally freighted image of a destroyer or demon. (Far cry from a "supportive parent" as someone once suggested). And turning the tables on those who I feel are burdening me, by pointing out current facts. I have noticed that this includes demanding hard concrete evidence for "faith", and wanting to see something NOW. That's the emotionally freighted image of a Trickster or brat.

Of course, analyzing and putting together these frameworks through Ti conveys the emotionally freighed image of a hero, and sharing it all with everyone as a possible way lf understanding things carries an emotionally freighted image of a parent. Nostalgia is connected with emotionally freighted images of innocence and childhood. (Where anyone can be nostalgic about the past and childhood, which lies always, of course, in the past, for me it carries a greater emotional weight behind it, which often seems childish to Si preferring types, and irrelevant to types with lower Si).

 

[amazingdatagirl]

Regarding the Daemon (Fi) - I have always wondered how high minded core values could emerge as a destructive force. EricB's example explained it perfectly.

...symmetry, which I enjoy just for its own sake.

LOL - yes, symmetry is very important

 

[Eric B]

Comparison of different shadow complex perspectives (I conceived these from sorting out the ENFP claim that was once made on me, and having to compare an Fe reaction between the inferior and Witch/Senex archetypes):

Witch Fe: I'M the authority on ethics. You're displaying bad social behavior [I go against external values when they conflict my internal standard, yet my conscience bothers me about this, and I project it at you].

Inferior Fe: feels inferior in humane (personal) matters (including one's standing in social groups). Focuses on internal technical evaluations. Shaky area in which he tends to deflect criticism back onto others. (And might thus say a similar thing as the Witch, though it's not spoken from authority, even if it tries to mask itself with such).

When this vulnerable area is attacked; this constellates its shadow:

Demon Fi: You're trying to destroy my humanity to the core (internal), so I'm going to destroy yours! [I really want to self-destruct from my need for internal logical "sense" and external personal validation being violated, and I project this onto you]

In both situations, you have a very negative attack on a "humane" level, involving behavior, ethics, etc. so it's easy to confuse the two (actually three) complexes involved.

On the flipside (between INFJ and ENTJ):

Witch Fi: I'M the authority on ethics! Your behavior shows a lack of personal integrity. [I feel I'm not living up to the personal (internal) side of ethics with my external focus, and I project it onto you].

Inferior Fi: feels inferior on a humane level, including personal integrity. (Focuses instead on external technical evaluations). Shaky area in which he tends to deflect criticism back onto others. (And might thus say a similar thing as the Witch, though it's not spoken from authority, even if it tries to mask itself with such).

When this vulnerable area is attacked; this constellates its shadow:

Demon Fe: You're trying to destroy me from the inside out, so I'm going to destroy your standing on the outside [I really want to self-destruct from my need for my external logical image and internal personal validation being violated, and I project this onto you]

Again, a nasty "personal" reaction. People see this and often think the person is an FJ, because "Thinking types don't get so personal like that". But they do, when it comes up from the unconscious.

 

[Eric B]

The others (New way of framing them from this):

Witch Se: I'M the authority on tangible reality (e.g. how things look). What you're making is ugly. [I feel deficient in this area, and project it onto you].

Witch Si: I'M the authority on factual data, and you have dwelled too much on the past and should move on [I feel bad about the past, and project it onto you]

Witch Ne: I'M the authority on conceptual ideas. Your ideas are totally ridiculous! [I cannot handle multiple emergent possibilities and project this onto you]

Witch Ni: I'M the authority on concepts and inferences. What you're doing fits (implies, infers, etc.) a negative pattern I see, and I'm going to stand against it. [I feel the patterns are against me, and project it onto you].

Witch Te: I'M the authority on logical sense. You are being totally illogical! [I subconsciously know my logic is not readily practical to others with my internal focus, and I project this onto you]

Witch Ti: I'M the authority on logical order. You are being totally illogical! [I subconsciously know my logic is not very deep with my external focus, and I project this onto you]

Trickster Se: HA! Got you! You're trying to bind me [I feel bound by tangible reality and project it onto you], so I'm going to bind you with tangible reality

Trickster Si: HA! Got you! You're trying to bind me [I feel bound by stored facts and project it onto you], so I'm going to bind you with stored facts (including making you look crazy for bringing them up; e.g. the past).

Trickster Ne: HA! Got you! You're trying to bind me [I feel bound by emergent inferences and project it onto you] so I'm going to bind you with concepts and possibilities.

Trickster Ni: HA! Got you! You're trying to bind me [I feel bound by stored conceptual patterns and project it onto you], so I'm going to bind you by proving that you're confirming my worst intuitions.

Trickster Te: HA! Got you! You're trying to bind me [I feel bound by externally set technical order and make mistakes with it, and project it onto you] so I'm going to bind you with technical order.

Trickster Ti: HA! Got you! You're trying to bind me [I feel bound by technical variables and project it onto you] so I'm going to bind you with technical details.

Trickster Fe: HA! Got you! You're trying to bind me with social rules [I feel bound by social rules and project it onto you], so I'l bind you with social etiquette

Trickster Fi: HA! Got you! You're trying to bind me [I feel bound by the personal side of situations such as universal values and project it onto you] so I'm going to bind you with ethical values.

Demon Se: feels undone by emergent tangible experience not under control of conceptual knowledge, and projects by trying to destroy others with rash impulsive reactions

Demon Si: You're trying to destroy me with my past, [I feel threatened by stored facts (which I see as irrelevant as it is) used against me, and project it onto you], so I'm going to use your past to destroy you!

Demon Ne: emergent conceptualization makes me feel totally lost and you're taking advantage of this [I project this onto you by "misinterpreting the meaning of someone's actions and attributing negative intentions where there were none" (Berens)], so I'm going to react accordingly.

Demon Ni: Your abstract dreamworld makes me feel totally lost [so I project this onto you], so I'm going to use negative inferences to make you feel threatened.

Demon Te: Your lack of orderliness totally destroys my sense of [humane] harmony [I feel gravely overwhelmed in the logical aspect of external oder, and project it onto you], so I'm going to destroy your mess (or become highly irritable as I clean the area).

Demon Ti: Your impersonal analysis makes me feel totally depersonalized [and I project this onto you], so I'm going to destroy your logic

Opposing Personality: you're obstructing me, so I'll oppose you. [I'm so immersed into my dominant orientation and oppose the opposite one, and project the opposition onto you]


Again, we see the key to the shadows is projection of what is disowned by the ego.

 

[Eric B]

Some other thoughts (largely from reading Quenk's Was That Really Me?):

We feel vulnerable in situations where our Persona (and its dominant functional perspective) is threatened. Then the normal inhibitions against the inferior function is removed ("what have I got to lose? I'm already 'out there'").
Depending on the situation, the person may even remain in the same brain hemisphere or J/P zone, and thus manifest the function in the dominant attitude, or Beebe's "8th" function, or Lenore's "Crow's Nest".

The way this seems to happen, is that it's not about "using" one of eight function-attitudes or another. It's about the four functional perspectives (S, N, T, F), and which one is inferior for us. The resultant attitude will be shaped by how the situation hits us.

It might be that the initial feeling reaches us by way of the typically assigned inferior function-attitude (opposite in both function and attitude), and then the reaction is in its shadow, in the dominant attitude, or the so-called 8th function. Hence, the "ship" order, which is often reflected in cognitive process test result "strengths".

If this happens a lot, you then become used to the perspective, and may "use" it more, but it still carries a general negative connotation (such as solutions to negative situations), and is somewhat uncomfortable.

So when feeling vulnerable, I then turn to a very strong, emotion-laden humane perspective.
Always had strong emotions when watching animal shows, and seeing how they used to paint or place big bulky radio transmitters on animals they wanted to keep track of. It was for a good purpose that made sense (studying and often trying to protect endangered species), but I couldn't help imagining how it would feel to have that stuff placed on the body and no way to get it off (Fi-personal identification to the situation).
Also, many fictional stories I can't watch, because of identifying hypothetically, in horrible situations. Any good ending doesn't even "redeem" it.

This made it seem like I might be an FP; after all; isn't a TP always supposed to be "detached", "impersonal", "objective", "unemotional", and put the cause of stuff like science first?
Still, the Fi has an extremely negative and unconsciously controlled connotation, so for whatever reason, I identify and then shut down in fear of the emotions that erupt. That is what by definition makes a T preference. If other T's aren't so affected, then that is their own individual experience. Maybe some of them are just better at ignoring or stuffing their emotions.

F's on the other hand; especially FP's, would likely enjoy the emotional reactions, even the negative parts, and a happy ending would maintain F's overall values and redeem all the negative stuff. I only sense this in certain fantasies involving the anima, and again, that stems from an overall negative "humane" context, with the Feeling as the last resort "angel" that transforms where T is unable to solve the issue.

I had always asked now and then what affect AS might have in cognitive process dynamics. Like if that might lead to stronger "shadows". What I think it does, is make you more sensitive to things (both physically, as widely testified, as well as emotionally). Hence, from being discomfortable from certain physical sensations (like not liking carrying things by hand), so I then readily identified with those animals I saw having stuff put on them. And then all the problems with people, and hence identifying strongly with characters in movies. (It seems everything becomes exaggerated, so I identify with the worst types of things, which have never even happened to me).
The discomfort in these situations is then overly perceived as a threat, constellating the Demonic complex, which is felt through personal identification.

For a dom. F, the persona is an air of humane stature. Vulnerability is losing that, and feeling cold and inhuman. When this happens, then they will turn to a cold, technical perspective.

For a dom. S, the persona is an air of tangible stability. Venturing into the abstract world of concepts represents vulnerability.

For a dom. N, the persona is an air of knowing the meanings behind things. Vulnerability is being stuck with only what is tangible.

For the arms (aux/tert and their shadows), there is a similar dynamic, but not as pronounced, as the auxiliary is not as differentiated as the dominant. So the tertiary is not as suppressed as the inferior.

When confronted with concrete reality I cannot change or even understand, and the SJ's say "that's life", I have always felt powerless, like a child. I then begin to act like one, pouting, storming off, other rash "tangible" impulsive actions. etc.

Only when I want to have childish relief, do I voluntarily switch to an S perspective.
I've noticed, that much of my nostalgia involves a desire to redo parts of the past, but with those "that's life" obstacles removed (basically from the priviledge of being older).

The tertiary is not as much about projection, since the Puer complex is pretty much owned by the ego, as our first defense of the dominant orientation (Tertiary Temptation). So it's far enough out of the shadow for a mature person. However, when it degrades to its shadow, the Trickster, this is projected, in my case, perhaps by seeing the offending concrete reality or the person laying it on you, as a sort of "bully" almost, that is trying to bind you. (This is a limbic emotional "image", which is what characterizes the archetypes; in this case, that of a kind of 'bad child'. The function-attitude is what the cognitive interpretation of it comes to you through).

 

[Eric B]

Here are some comparisons I have been thinking of for the anima in three similar dominant types. I'm proposing that the Opposing Personality (which is the mirror of the anima, in also being contrasexual) might be the image of the ideal ego that has integrated at least some aspects of the anima:

Dom. Ti: confident in internal world and with technical knowledge. Feel inferior in external world and in humane matters.

male Fe anima: I feel inferior to the outside world in my human existence. I would be best completed by a female who by my side would make me somebody in the external world
Feel "love" towards women whom this is projected on. Projection will likely be shaped by the person's mother, including her type.

To attack the anima is to confirm my inferiority as a human in the world, making me feel unworthy of the female image the hero is supposed to protect, and thus feared to be forever doomed to incompleteness.

OP: integrates the opposite gender and external orientation to the dominant heroic persona and technical (impersonal) focus.
The ideal fantasy ego completed by the anima.
Accepted by the outside world (fulfilling the role of the anima), and thus able to establish the ego's logical order.
Te-using women come off as sexy, for this is the aspect of femininity that needs to be conquered rather than mated to the ego. (women with "spunk"; like a witty female who gains respect from everyone through impersonal control of the environment, coupled with a sexy finesse).

Dom. Fi: confident in internal world and with humane knowledge. Feel inferior in external world and in technical matters.

male Te anima: I feel inferior to the outside world in technical order. I would best be completed by a female who would make decisions for me, and by my side, would help me bring order in the external world
Feel "love" towards women whom this is projected on. Projection will likely be shaped by the person's mother, including her type.

To attack the anima is to confirm my inferiority in technical matters in the world, making me feel unworthy of the female image the hero is supposed to protect, and thus feared to be forever doomed to incompleteness.

OP: integrates the opposite gender and external orientation to the dominant heroic persona and humane (personal) focus.
Ideal fantasy ego completed by the anima. Would be accepted by the outside world (fulfilling the role of the anima), and thus able to establish the ego's sense of humane harmony in the world.
Fe-using women come off as sexy, for this is the aspect of femininity that needs to be conquered rather than mated to the ego. (this perspective might lead to things such as sexy maid/nurse fetishes).

Dom. Te: confident in external world and with technical knowledge. Feel inferior in internal world and in humane matters.

male Fi anima: I feel inferior inside in my human existence. I would best be completed by a female who by my side would give me a sense of integrity
Feel "love" towards women whom this is projected on. Projection will likely be shaped by the person's mother, including her type.

To attack the anima is to confirm my inferiority in internal integrity, making me feel unworthy of the female image the hero is supposed to protect, and thus feared to be forever doomed to incompleteness.

OP: integrates the opposite gender and internal orientation to the dominant heroic persona and technical (impersonal) focus.
The ideal fantasy ego completed by the anima.
Having more of an internal grounding (fulfilling the role of the anima), and thus able to universalize the ego's logical order.
Ti-using women come off as sexy, for this is the aspect of femininity that needs to be conquered rather than mated to the ego.

 

[Eric B]

The Demon it seems is the cast off corner of the psyche where the worst state of the dominant gender is paired with the inferior function.

What I'm thinking now, is that the complex becomes split, and a more devious version gets projected onto others, while a more hapless and pathetic version is what we project onto ourselves. (i.e. this is what we fear we will be reduced to if we don't fight the demon without).
It represents the feared death of the ego; think "Ichabod". A weak helpless person who basically becomes taken over by and merged with the Headless Horseman.

So to me, in a battle, I will see an opponent whom I project an evil self-contentment (Fi) onto as Precious Pupp (which I use to represent Demon Fi here: MBTI comics... explanation two posts down). I myself will feel that if I "lose" to him; I'll be like one of the hapless villains in cartoons.

Characters like Sylvester and most other cats, and various wolves or foxes who chase other prey come to mind; including most of Precious Pupp's opponents.
They are like the diametric opposite of Precious Pupp, who, is technically a good guy who basically manages to use evil to beat his opponents. They, on the other hand, are bad guys, being "bullies" to some prey, and are yet totally hapless against the defender of the victim. You also have a character like the one-shot Ricochet Rabbit bandit Half-pint Pinto ("Big Thinker") who wanted to be a bad guy, but was too wimpy (rejected by all the other bad guys), and had to unsuccessfully rustle an elephant to try to prove himself. (This is actually the example that comes to mind first. As far as innocence and gender, he is just as opposite the image of the Gulliver girl I used as Precious Pupp is, though pretty much as weak and vulnerable as she is, totally unlike Precious Pupp).

This is what shadows the vulnerability of the anima, and yet again, the image is otherwise the total opposite of the beautiful and innocent feminine anima. (I thought of this new premise specifically in trying to come up with a better parallel of the Demon with the anima's vulnerability. Precious Pupp is really not vulnerable at all, but only makes himself look like he is on a very superficial level. These other characters I'm mentioning truly are vulnerable, though still evil).

Charlie Brown (INFP?) also constellates these feelings, though he's ultimately the hero and not a bad guy. He is virtually a kind of bad guy ("goat", etc) to the other kids (a demonic projection on their part?) when they scold him for doing everything wrong, and remember, for me, this is shadowing inferior Fe which bases personal worth on what the collective believes.

Again, one might wonder how such a tenderhearted Fi could be associated with "evil". But the way the complex is constellated for me, is that such "wishy-washy" people are basically allowing evil to prevail. If Tweety and other prey can hit or otherwise outsmart the cat or other predator chasing them, and then a dog or other strong protector is constantly punching the predator out, then why can't Sylvester and the others ever pick up something and knock the dog out, or otherwise outsmart them? They totally wimp out, nearly every time. Like on the Jonny Bravo episode ("Intensive Care") where the Igor-like hospital orderly is abusing him to keep him from coming on to the nurse. The stories end with the character uttering some wimpish line in defeat (e.g. "just not my day" or something like that). Why can't they attack back?

To me, this is shadow/reflecting heroic Ti, which demands a perfectly symmetrical order to things. Punishments must match the crime. Why is it so wrong for Johnny to hit on girls (the same with all those hardnosed women in the show who always beat him to a pulp just for saying "Hello there, pretty mama")? If it's OK for dogs to chase cats, then why are cats villified for chasing birds or mice?

In the case of Charlie Brown, recall, the demon is shadowing a vulnerable anima Fe. If people hate you so much, why would you stay there and keep taking it? Why would Sylvester or Tom stay in a yard with a bulldog making them teach the young pup to chase cats? That is allowing the evil to continue. If it were me, I would long have told such a crowd to screw themselves, and stormed off, disengaging (which is one of the negative traits of Fe. You don't want to be where you are not wanted or respected. Fi on the other hand stands up for what's "right", when the group is in violation of universal ethics.

I take it, their humane focus tries to believe the best about mankind, and give them a chance. "If I keep trying, maybe they'll accept me". Hence, IFP's being the more pure "Supine" or "Supine-Sanguine" blend (or at least a "peaceful Phlegmatic" who doesn't care as much) who are more likely to keep "taking" it (and end up forever frustrated), where the T (with the N) tempers the Supine by giving me the Choleric drive to either master the situation, or at least run away so I can fight another day. I realize humanity is basically apart of the "jungle", and trying to get people like that to change is futile.

I imagine an IFP's Demon Ti might be most embodied in the Unabomber. Or, among those with a strong sexual ethic; perhaps Woody Allen. (Can any IFP's testify?)

An ETJ's Demon Fe might match "Mrs Smith" on the Powerpuff Girls (Supper Villain; Just Desserts), who became evil when she felt her hosting of her neighbors was unappreciated.

 

[Eric B]

I imagine the sense of completeness in a romantic partner might come out in the emotional images that surface when we think of a beautiful romantic day:

ISxJ's: exploring new possibilities, to "create new memories".
INxJ's: enjoying rigorous tangible experience together, and extracting meaning from it.
IxTP's: strolling through a beautiful setting involving an atmosphere colored by other people; admiring technical things.
IxFP's: working side by side at some sort of logical organization with a humanitarian purpose.
ESxP's: someone to get lost with in a world of conceptual frameworks such as archetypes and symbolism, and then realizing their dreams.
ENxP's: enjoying nostalgia together, and exploring them as exciting possibilities
ExTJ's: someone who gives them a sense of personal integrity, giving them further incentive for their logical ordering.
ExFJ's: exoploring technical wonders, and feeling connected through this.

I can testify for the ITP one, which I realized must have something to do with Fe, beyond just "emotions". (recall, "The feelings reach us by way of the associated function"). I recalled that when I thought of other people's ideas of a romantic getaway, such as being alone on a desert island; I cringed, and imagined all sorts of horrible things (drown in the lagoon, bitten by poisonous creatures, captured by pirates or natives, or any sort of ailment, and no one around to help. Or, just us getting on each other's nerves, with no others to distract from that).
All of my romantic images generally take place in populated areas, and while not necessarily interacting with the other people, they must at least be there to provide the background as I enjoy (and show off) my other half. (We went to the Poconos once, and tried the miniature golf, but it was just no fun without others, as it was when I once played it in a singles group outing, desperately wanting a partner. She often wonders why I want others around in things we do together).
And it can't be a place where I don't fit in with the values, or feel otherwise rejected by the environment.

I imagine an ISJ or INJ might be the types more likely to prefer the desert island, as it will more likely fulfill a Se or Ne sense of "adventure".
ETJ's might have the sense of "you and me against the world"; finding the harmony within instead of without. Like in the song "Lovely Day" (Bill withers).

So this picks up with the thought of two posts ago, that to attack the anima is to basically dash these romantic images by confirming our inferiority in those areas, and thus being unworthy. (And in real life, no one can ever fulfill this ideal companion, so we tend to just find fault with people who use the opposite perspective).

Can the other types testify of these things?

 

[Eric B]

Here, in a nutshell, is an example of the degradation of all four "primary" function sand archetypes, into all four shadows!

Drawing upon the concepts of "abstracting" and "empathy", for shadow degradation, it then makes sense that if I prefer to devalue the object in favor of subjective content in technical relationships (the dominant ego perspective), and then tend to trust the object with humane relationships, and this is a vulnerable, shaky area (inferior); then if I constantly get "burned" there, I'll eventually withdraw the value from the object and place it back into the subjective content, in which I then strip it of its association with irrelevant elements (which don't make sense to the subjective content). The issue is still one of humane relationships, so it's not simply the dominant perspective "mixing" with the inferior, as some four-process theorists would argue. This is a negative, reactive response that is not consciously controlled, and using a humane perspective I normally dissociate from the subjective content.
Likewise, when it comes time to take action through technical means, I'll merge with the object in a negative way to support ego's goals (and thus oppose the threat).
This covers the spine.

As for the arm, the child seeks relief (in my case, notalgia about the past) through Si, in which I devalue the tangible object in experience, and instead save the most relevant images. But the preferred perspective this is filtered through is still Ne, which merges with the conceptual object and says things should be open, and unique.
If something conventional and closed is forced on me, that will make me feel like an oppressed child. So then, how will the person or institution responsible for this come across? As a negative, limiting parent, and one who forces a particular negative pattern, in which the object is now devalued, and a particular relevant element is locked in on, and thus not open and flexible. Thus, the projection of the Senex through the perspective of Ni. And then, how does this child deal with this perceived bad parent? Try to get him off my back through trickery, merging with the environment of emergent tangible data; being "bad" myself through the Trickster with Se (which is also simultaneously projected onto the other person in the form of a menacing bully.

 

[Eric B]

When Se is in Opposing Personality role, the ego function is Si, which internalizes concrete experience as memory. When this is challenged, the focus is shifted to current reality to backup past knowledge. (after all, the past once was present, and is to be learned from in order to know what to expect in the present).

In a similar fashion, when Se is in witch/senex role, Si is the function the ego uses to parent others. When the parental advice based on past knowledge is rejected, then the parent becomes critical and uses current reality to place blame and find fault.

When Se is trickster, then Si is puer, and internalized concrete experience is what the ego childishly falls back on to maintain its introverted attitude. If this is challenged, the ego will use current concrete reality to get others off his back by pointing at others ("you do it too" defense {triggered when the ego is intimidated through the puer by memory-based fear of punishment}). "wanting to have its own way": wanting to see things for myself, and having concrete evidence for things such as spirituality.

Se as demon: The person aspires to being more attentive to internal sensations. External sensations may undermine this.

Si as Opposing Personality: The person is focused primarily on the present. The past is used as a reference to how it links to the present, which they will stubbornly cling to.

Si as witch/senex: the person parents others by noticing current concrete data. If this is ignored, they will turn to past concrete data to criticize things by.

Si as trickster: Sensory pleasure is a source of childlike relief. If this is threatened, they will reference past esperiences to get the person off their back.

Si as demon: the person, immersed in the world of Ni, ultimately wants some connection to the concrete world, usually the present. Under stress, they may turn from present to past reality.

Ne as Opposing Personality: The person usually has "knowings" based on internal abstract perceptions. If this is challenged, they will turn towards external stimuli to back up their perception.

Ne as witch/senex: The person parents with foresight and following their visions. If this is spurned, they will turn to an external sense of possibilities to criticize with.

Ne as trickster: The person finds relief in using their imagination to perceive the future. If this is intimidated, they would try to tie others down with multiple external interpretations.

Ne as demon: They aspire to having a sense of the future. When stressed, it can turn into messed up interpretations.

Ni as Opposing backs up Ne as hero. The ego cherishes multiple opportunities of external obects being open. If they are shut out, then the person will "lock on" to an internal negative perception of what will happen.

Ni as senex/witch uses its perceptions to criticize or cast blame, with a cynical outlook on the future. They normally "parent" others with external-based multiple possibilities, but when these seem to be shut out by circumstances (or if they cannot obtain the meaning behind something), they will generate a specific perception internally, and 'parent' others in a negative fashion with this.

Ni as trickster shadows Ne as child. Imaginativeness using multiple possibilities is a playful, childlike endeavor. If this is intimidated, the person will then try to bind the other person with negative premonitions of what will happen (such as a fight occurring. Like because the person really prefers Si-- and "parents" with it, someone may see them as unimaginitive. This will be striking at a vulnerable area, resulting in a possible angry reaction).

Ni as demon: shadows Ne as anima. The person really has a typical aversion to too much abstraction (favoring internal concrete remembrance), but does aspire to seeing the meanings behind things. Under stress, this will become very negative forecasting "with detailed certainty" (Berens).

Te as Opposing Personality will back up the ego's internal model of how things should be, and thus when the principles are violated, it will be "stubborn" about how things are organized.

Te as witch/Senex will back up parental Ti which seeks to instruct others with its models. So when people do not follow the principles, it will turn to the external order of things to criticize and find fault.

Te as trickster will shadow the Child, which delights in models and frameworks. If someone intimidates this, it will turn to external principles to strip down the offender.

Te as demon: Very Feeling driven person, and while they have an aspiration to Ti, when things are out of order, they will overcompensate with a focus on efficient order of things.

Ti as Opposing Personality: The person's hero is extraverted Thinking, which orders the world for efficiency. When this is challenged, they will turn inward to universal principles to stubbornly support their external focus.

Ti as witch/senex: The person parents others with rules of external efficiency. When this is not adhered to, then they begin parenting critically with the universal frameworks and principles of the world that support the external rules.

Ti as trickster: External efficiency is looked up to with childlike innocense. The person will turn to the underlying principles behind it as a last resort if intimidated.

Ti as demon: The person has a deep down desire to be organized and systematic. If this is intimidated with too much logic, they then seek to rip to shreds the models and frameworks, proving them inconsistent.

Fe as Opposing Personality: The person is driven by personal and universal values. If these are challenged, they will appeal to external values to defend the ego.

Fe as critical parent is supporting Fi as good parent. ExFP's parent others with personal or universal values. If a group or people in a group are violating these, then the person will begin using external values to parent the people in a critical fashion (including blaming).

Fe as trickster: The person finds relief through universal/personal values. External values are appealed to (often in an overgeneralized fashion) when motivating someone to do what's important, particularly if the person's bahavior is affecting them in some way.

Fe as demon: The person's directive heroic external logic is ultimately driven by a deep sense of what's personally important. If this is violated, then they will use external values to put others down, or claim to be unfairly treated.

Fi as Opposing Personality: The person is driven to accommodate others, but since this can easily be taken advantage of, when stressed, (or more frequently; from coming from a background of abuse), they will turn the value system inward and erect a hard stiff wall of what is important and desired to themselves personally.

Fi as critical parent: The person parents others with external values. If this is ignored, a negative internal judgment system will erupt to sharply put down the offender.

Fi as trickster: Social acceptance will be a vulnerable spot for them. If this is intimidated, they will use universal values to get others off their backs.

Fi as demon: Fe as anima will be very dependent on others for acceptance. If others constantly reject the person, this will trigger a very negative, destructive "universal" sense of being no good as a person, which may also cause backlashes against others. Values will be used as a "club" to condemn offenders or their systems. The person will also vehemently resist any charge of violation of Fe or Fi values. They may be put off by any self-righteous moralizing in others (which pricks their conscience in a provocative way), and try to outo or take them down.

I've added to these an overview for each function-attitude, in terms of the "add/subtract" definition of e/i:

When Se is the shadow degradation; the person goes from a primary perspective of subtracting from tangible data what is irrelevant or untrusted, and now adds or interjects himself into the emergent experience in a (usually) more negative fashion.

When Si is the shadow degradation; the person goes from a primary perspective of adding or interjecting himself into the emergent experience to subtracting from the tangible data what is irrelevant, in a (usually) more negative fashion.

When Ne is the shadow degradation; the person goes from a primary perspective of subtracting from conceptual data what is irrelevant or untrusted, and now adds or interjects himself into the emergent data in a (usually) more negative fashion. He'll veer away from likely outcomes according to internalized conceptual patterns, and merge with the objects themselves, using their open, multiple meanings or possibilities to toss out at others, perhaps sarcastically.

When Ni is the shadow degradation; the person goes from a primary perspective of adding or interjecting himself into the emergent possibilities to subtracting from the conceptual data what is irrelevant, in a (usually) more negative fashion. They now "lock on" to a negative outcome extracted from all other possibilities!

When Te is the shadow degradation; the person goes from a primary perspective of subtracting from technical data what is irrelevant, and now adds or interjects himself into the logical aspects of the object in a (usually) more negative fashion. You try to promote your frameworks as the most efficient, and in some way get them implemented.

When Ti is the shadow degradation; the person goes from a primary perspective of adding or interjecting himself into the technical content to subtracting from it what is irrelevant, in a (usually) more negative fashion. He now (temporarily) steps aside from the means to the end of implementing efficiency, to referencing the inherent "universal" principles, explaining why this is the way it should be, or why others should understand or act accordingly.

When Fe is the shadow degradation; the person goes from a primary perspective of subtracting from humane content what is irrelevant, and now adds or interjects himself into the external interpersonal situation in a (usually) more negative fashion.

When Fi is the shadow degradation; the person goes from a primary perspective of adding or interjecting himself into the interpersonal environment to subtracting from the external values what is irrelevant, in a (usually) more negative fashion. They now retreat to their own personal values (as a defense), which they normally adapt to accomodate others.

 

[SingSmileShine]

Check out my functions. Do you think I have more Se than the average ENFP?

 

[INTP]

Check out my functions. Do you think I have more Se than the average ENFP?

You dont have Se, if you score high on this fake Se you see on function tests, it means that you are using your Si through your Ne alot and tells that you most likely have some problems with Si.

 

[ilikeitlikethat]

I got INTP, my INFJ friend who'se at uni studying to be a Psychologist/Counselor or Psychiatrist in this whole other country showed me this Myer-Briggs test, and also told me to go to wikipedia (which is so cool) to see what INTP is when I asked.

They say their one is like them, I can't deny my one is sort of like me, ish, or whatever. (Still new to this.)

http://www.futuramaff.com/showthread.php?t=14289

 

[Anarkandi]

As a dev. at Physiognomy/Motus I have to say I do not see any of the latter four functions in the personality code expressed conciously visually in any of the people interviewed. As in, you cannot mentally project "unconcious signals" into your body language. I trust the four function model to be correct in this. And other projects, such as PRP and Pod'Lair doing visual typings seem to agree with us on this aswell. But take note, our project is just in the exploration phase so I cannot support these claims. Just - I trust in it to be correct.

I don't see growth as in "learning to USE your concious four functions" - because I think most people use all four functions conciously in their daily lives. However, growth may be learning to use these functions effectively and not as opposed to each others. That's a whole different thing though.

I like the thought on the inferior function being the gateway to your subconcious. I am a dream interpreter and I keep a dream diary. I am an ENFJ (Fe-Ni-Se-Ti with subconcious Fi-Ne-Si-Te.) and I have had encounters with the witch archetype (Ne) and the interpretation I did was that it was about my relation to my sister (ne-dom) and that I saw her as unruly and uncontrollable, that she kept changing her decisions, that nothing was clear, and it frustrated me a great deal. And the witch actually guarded a locked box, full of hidden insight. (Ni) which I wanted access to. I see the subconcious opposing self as our fears and they throw us out of our riffs, keep us from accessing insight, learning things, etc, etc.

My encounter with Fe-Fi?

Most of my dreams are actually about Fe-Fi. As in, I dream of myself as an heroic explorer, often working in pirate crews with groups of people, delivering goods and valuable stones to others (interpretted as connections) or fighting against monkeys (monkeys are people who "mirror" me you know, or try to deceive me.) I have had little experience or memory of fighting Fi in my dreams, sorry. I have had alot of Se-dreams. In which I meet a young girl that I hang out with, explore nature, amazing scenery, and just talk and enjoy the present with. (Could also be seen as Fe connection or Ti-intellectual stimulation) In those dreams, there are often elements of Si which are wonky such as us riding a train, and suddenly the train goes off track, so we have to get off, or other weird things were details don't match up, Si kinda proves as something I can laugh at later, weird off details. Inconsistensies. Things that don't match up. Such as a recent dream where I interrail travel across europe and I meet a friend but he's a little boy, and suddenly he turns into my friend again, because I think "hey, this doesen't match up!"

Oh. And Ti dreams. Ti is what I've tied closest to dreams that are about exploring my inner feeligns and thoughts. They are dreams of churches radiating in many colours, and where I take the role of a detective solving puzzles and trying to figure out clues. How does Te show up here? Well, Te is supposed to be a demon archetype. No sign of demons. I don't think I've experienced Te in my dreams much.

I consider myself a balanced built configuration Fe(Ni) 3w2, 7w6, 1w9 with a good relation to my inferior function Ti. (I involve myself in Ti and work hard on strengthening it because I've in the past wanted to impress people around me by being smart.) and with a decent use of Fe (But could be better)

 

[Anarkandi]

Sorry, looking through this thread and just thought I had to see if this fits:

Hero (Ni): A strong male figure with superpowers or magical abilities (including flight, invisibility, force fields and energy blasts) who steps in to save the day. Usually represented by myself in a dream, but sometimes can be a third party.

Sounds more like Se-dream patterns.

Parent (Fe): Usually, my actual parents. Alternatively, a wise male mentor figure, such as Professor X of the X-Men or Gandalf from LOTR. Can be somewhat stern and aloof, but at other times will save me from disaster.

Seems more like Ti-father.

Child (Ti): A young boy, cocky and streetwise, may look like an urchin. He will initiate some type of bantering dialogue with me. He is charming and witty, but I get the sense that he is not to be fully trusted, or may attempt to steal something from me. However, if I decide to trust him, he may lead me along a secret path to treasure.

Seems more like Fe. Really.

Anima (Se) A beautiful female with flowing hair. She also tends to appear as a superhero with the power to control the elements, often assisting me in the dream. On a number of occasions, she has manifested as the Marvel superhero "Scarlet Witch".

Ni.

Opposing personality (Ne) Can be male or female, usually charismatic and powerful. Will publicly denounce me in a very nasty way. May rouse an army of supporters to rise up against me; this can lead to open warfare on a grand scale.

Unable to deduce.

Witch (Fi) A woman who used to be my best friend, but who became increasingly unstable and manipulative. Escaping her clutches was one of the hardest things I've ever done; now she haunts my dreams!

Hard to deduce. Too little information.

Demon (Si) A dark male figure, only seen in silhouette. He lurks on the edge of a scene and is both sinister and seductive at the same time. He clearly is linked to my own Shadow side. At other times a monster of some kind, actively trying to destroy me. If I am in Hero mode, we may engage in an epic, superhero-type battle which commonly ends in a stalemate.

Hard to deduce. Too little information.

You dream more like a Se(Ti) according to Bebe.

 

[Eric B]

Here's a good site I found that has articles on this stuff, and in this one, an exposition of Beebe's take on Bob Dylan, which gives a good sample of how he breaks these things down in his model.

http://typeindepth.com/2013/01/archetypes-in-a-portrait-of-bob-dylan/

It has some very interesting information about what happens with all the "arm" archetypes when the Puer (tertiary) is stronger than the Parent (aux).

 

[Cygnus]

Ni archetype *cough-special-cough-snowflake syndrome-cough*

Is teh most powerfull funkshin in teh WORDL & it is more powerfuller then Si bekause evryting is bedder tehn Si OMGFTWZOMGZOMGLOLSJSAREEVILSJSCANROTINHELL i'm Ni i see teh big piktur im so much bedder tehn yoo lololololol

Se archetype
Iz not so bad i meen at leest its bedder then Si rite? kuz Si iz liek teh devil!!!!! but Se's arnt so bad exept Se is USELESS! OMGESFPSANDESTPSARESOANNOYINGANDEVILTHEYCANROTINHELLALLSPSAREEVILEXCEPTISTPSISTPSHAVENOEMOTIONSANDTHATSAGOODTHING

Si archetype
ZOMGZOMGWTF!!!!! teyh ar so EVVIVLLL! I just want tehm to DIE in a NUcular war!!!!LOLLOLSISARESONARROWMINDEDURGHHIMSUCHANINTPANDALLSISAREEVILANDSTUPIDALLSENSORSARESTUPIDANDEVILLETTHEMGOROTINHELL!!!!!!!!!


........sorry, I had to vent....