[Jungian Cognitive Functions] An Fe-Fi negative convo

[Z Buck McFate]

YES, Z Buck! Me, too. I vent to resolve conflicts and frustrations, too. Nothing is ever set in stone. Sometimes what I say is just giving voice to something that's been rolling around in my head and bothering me, resulting in my feeling powerless. Sometimes I can vent about it and kind of resolve it and then need to come back through it again, b/c it bothers me so much. But it's always getting someone else's opinion so I won't go nuts, and getting it out of my head so I won't go nuts.

Yeah, seriously, I've been told many times that it doesn't sound like I'm doing it to get opinions, but that's really the driving force behind it. And I tend to avoid doing it around people who instinctively shrink back because they must be too scared to offer their own opinion (?), because I don't like feeling like a jerk. But when information bouncing around in my head just doesn't make sense, it drives me nuts and the last thing on my mind is figuring out how to frame the purging of it in a nicey-nice way.

 

[Fidelia]

I third that. Venting may sound like final judgements on people, but it actually is very sensitive to people's reactions and takes them into account when callibrating ones own standpoint on a topic.

 

[sculpting]

Goodness, this is a rather bizarre thread. .

yup. very much so. I think that PB and Pro have engaged in a game of feeler truth or dare and I am being dragged into reality. I am like, dude, what the heck is going on here? It's all good though...I shall work on a few details ladies and be in touch shortly. You ladies are both very lovely and caring.

Edit: YES, Z Buck! Me, too. I vent to resolve conflicts and frustrations, too. Nothing is ever set in stone. Sometimes what I say is just giving voice to something that's been rolling around in my head and bothering me, resulting in my feeling powerless. Sometimes I can vent about it and kind of resolve it and then need to come back through it again, b/c it bothers me so much. But it's always getting someone else's opinion so I won't go nuts, and getting it out of my head so I won't go nuts.

Because, well...that's ME. So it's like...if they can't take those rougher edges, then in the end they can't really take me in my entirety. I think this is why I have so few relationships where I can show the majority or all of my sides. Most people get the bits and pieces that I think they can take or *understand*.

But... in the end... isn't this what most adults end up doing? Learn as they grow up that they need to be selective in who they let in? Figuring out who to allow close into their life and who not? I suppose we all just have our unique traits and needs out or relationships..

Okay, so I totally understand all of the comments about venting. Fi users feel exactly, exactly EXACTLY the same way-We want to be able to vent through all the Fi stuff we are feeling, get it out of our heads as we work out the details and figure out was is okay and not okay to feel, what and why are values may or may not be okay-THAT is actually what you see me doing in this thread. Exact same stuff, same needs.....oh, yeah it totally sounds judgmental and reactive...cause it is in mid process...

But if I accept you guys Ti venting for what it is, can I ask you to take my Fi venting for what it is and not be offended or call me schizophrenic or too sensitive or overly emotional? Hmmmm??? I know, I know...

Cascadeco, I am afraid ENFPs work backwards from your explanation-we are initially very open and sharing to Everyone and tend to get emotionally mauled as a result and learn the hard way who to shut out and who to let in. We start off extroverting the inner Fi goo, get hurt, then we layer weird Te bandages and shadowy Ni to try and keep the inner self hidden-because we dont have the Fe ability to separate the inside emo from the outer display??

We end up building really weird boxes to try and keep the goo in, but my ENTP says she can still see it leaking around the edges and it makes her nervous-it upsets her Fe and feels unstable until she can build a Ti system for the particular ENFP-she needs someway to predict the emotional lability before she can relax.

 

[Greta]

Why is it that ENFP's alleged Fi can seem so alien and strange (and yes, melodramatic and overemotional) to me yet the INFP's I can identify with? I can set my clock by it.

/strong Fi user who pretty much echoes Orangey for thread.

 

[Tallulah]

Okay, so I totally understand all of the comments about venting. Fi users feel exactly, exactly EXACTLY the same way-We want to be able to vent through all the Fi stuff we are feeling, get it out of our heads as we work out the details and figure out was is okay and not okay to feel, what and why are values may or may not be okay-THAT is actually what you see me doing in this thread. Exact same stuff, same needs.....oh, yeah it totally sounds judgmental and reactive...cause it is in mid process...

But if I accept you guys Ti venting for what it is, can I ask you to take my Fi venting for what it is and not be offended or call me schizophrenic or too sensitive or overly emotional? Hmmmm??? I know, I know...

Okay, this makes sense.

 

[Orangey]

Just to repeat, the "ISTP" in the story is probably an XSXJ. To be more precise but potentially less accurate, she's ISTJ.

Thread Goal-Exploration of a very negative Fi: Fe experience IRL and gain an understanding of why/what is missing in communication and why her words struck me so harshly. Understand how she could feel this way, say one thing and act in another.

Perhaps you'd gain a better understanding about your communication issues with your MIL if you understood the actual situation more clearly (i.e., found out about the neglect, discovered what other factors are frustrating your MIL, etc.,.) Does that not sound more practical than speculating on an internet forum about the clash between honest Fi and deceitful Fe? Or do you really just want to use this as an opportunity to congratulate yourself some more on your highly-tuned sensitivity to cruelness and injustice in this world?

Exactly. And I refuse to believe Fi just believes everyone is sunshine and rainbows 100% of the time and Fi never badmouths anyone EVARR (well, you can look on the forum for lots of evidence of the latter, so I know that part isn't true). Is it just that Fi doesn't vocalize their negative feelings about anyone until they've decided the person is a despicable human being? From the horrified Fi reaction here it kinda seems like that might be so....which would be very interesting.

Agreed.

You know, if dissimulating their true feelings is really as difficult for Fi users as you guys are making it sound, then they must be dead terrible at manipulation (in both roles, as the manipulator or as the one being manipulated.) Of course, I don't for one second believe that Fi users are any less capable of lying or masking their feelings than anyone else. The whole idea is just some bullshit cooked up by a few people who love their own personality profiles a little too much.

 

[Southern Kross]

Exactly. And I refuse to believe Fi just believes everyone is sunshine and rainbows 100% of the time and Fi never badmouths anyone EVARR (well, you can look on the forum for lots of evidence of the latter, so I know that part isn't true). Is it just that Fi doesn't vocalize their negative feelings about anyone until they've decided the person is a despicable human being? From the horrified Fi reaction here it kinda seems like that might be so....which would be very interesting.

(as in, Fi here is reading the negative words of the istp - and we still don't know whether they are just 100% factual rather than negative whining - as proof that the istp has "cruelly" decided that this woman is a despicable human being)

Of course we vent about people, but speaking for myself, I tend to avoid utterly condemning someone when I do so. Even when someone annoys the hell out of me I am very circumspect about speaking as if my view is reflective of some objective truth (ie. that everyone should agree with me). I only do so when there is damning evidence that they are a shitty person; anything less than that, I assume it is merely my opinion. Even then I will often blame myself to some degree for the problems. I will second guess myself and think that my annoyance is my own fault because: a) I am failing to properly understand their position, b) I am too irritable and easily annoyed, c) I am being too sensitive, d) I am doing something, or failing to do something, that causes them to behave this way, d) I expect too much of them, e) they can't help it/don't mean to be that way and consequently I'm horrible for thinking meanly of them.

Fi has a keen sense of the shades of complexities in regards to human behaviour - for us there is no black and white (ie. either neglect or no neglect) in relation to such issues. I think O probably thinks that the mother could be taking better care of her kids but that she is hardly deserving of such harsh criticism. I also think O feels that if the ISTP were to make the effort to see things from the other woman's point of view, she wouldn't be so critical of her - it bothers her that most of these problems could be solved if the ISTP considered all of the contributing factors but she flatly refuses to do so. Its not just offensive to us because she's being unfairly judgemental, we actually find it nonsensical and unreasonable.

 

[Orangey]

I also think O feels that if the ISTP were to make the effort to see things from the other woman's point of view, she wouldn't be so critical of her - it bothers her that most of these problems could be solved if the ISTP considered all of the contributing factors but she flatly refuses to do so.

Is that even true?

 

[Fidelia]

Interesting, Southern Cross. I rarely conclude that someone is a bad person altogether.

I think Fe and Fi just draw their conclusions at different points. Fe tends to be more upfront and rigid initially, but adjustable as it gathers context and perspective on the individual situation (this is why you hear Fe-ers often asking a lot of questions that may seem invasive or probing to Fi users. They are trying to figure out motivations and gather additional information that would help them make a balanced judgement). From what I've noticed, Fi seems to be very flexible at the outset and very reluctant to be judgemental, but comes to a fairly black and white decision at the end that is not easily changed, particularly if values are involved. I am quite outspoken (in my thoughts and in private company) about my opinions on their behaviour though. Behaviour and the person themselves are somehow distinct for me in some regards, even though I highly value integrity. One of my biggest problems in fact tends to be that once I have figured out the cause of their bad behaviour, I tend to excuse more than I should or not draw firm boundaries for what I will and won't accept. Over time, I've discovered that it is much kinder to have those boundaries clear and draw them earlier than I am naturally inclined to, so that I don't become resentful with them and so that they don't feel criticized or condemned.

 

[Southern Kross]

Is that even true?

With the majority of the points of conflict, yes.

Acording to the ISTP the ISFP is terrible because:

- "The kids are malnourished/drink milk all the time" - explained by - a) young children tend to be hopeless eaters, b) milk is actually good for them. However, perhaps the ISFP doesn't know the correct things to feed children because no one taught her and needs help with this.
- "They run around like dogs" - explained by - they are children. Running around is normal
- "They aren't toilet trained" - explained by - they are all 3 and under. This is normal
- "I don't want her to toilet train them - it will ruin the carpet" - illogical - You can't complain they aren't toilet trained, then tell her she can't toilet train them
- "The kids are sick all the time" - explained by - Its winter. People get colds, especially children
- "The children are filthy/wear dirty diapers/aren't properly dressed" - fair points and should be addressed
-"[She was messy]" - illogical - This issue has already been addressed. Its beating a dead horse.
-"Its only a matter of time before she slacks and let’s everything get messy again." - illogical - you can't blame someone for something they haven't done yet.
-"[Our standards of cleaning] should be obvious [to her]" - explained by - she's not psychic. People have different approaches to housework and the ISFP wasn't informed that she was required to keep a certain standard.
- "The children don't talk" - explained by - a) they are still young. Children learn at different rates, b) they may be shy
-"All she does is hold the baby" - ???
-"[I can't contact a speech development specialist because] they would take her kids away" - fair point but only if she genuinely believes this, otherwise its just dramatics
-"An introverted person wouldn't beg for help" - illogical - a) this is begging the question, b) she wasn't even 'begging' for help anyway (as the ISTP admits)
- "She told someone from the church her sob story, so what else could we do?"- illogical - how is the ISFP's fault? The ISTP didn't want to help her but was forced to out of pity/religious obligation and is now blaming the inconvenience of this on the ISFP. Lovely.
- "If she cared about her kids she wouldn't have cancelled her doctors appointments" - illogical - again this is begging the question. And perhaps the ISFP felt burdensome, however, I agree she still should keep going to the doctor
- "We had to change our schedules when she wanted a ride to the doctor's" - illogical - this is complaining that she doesn't go to the doctors, then complaining that she does. She's damned if she does, damned if she doesn't.
- "If she cared about burdening us she would do a better job cleaning up" - illogical - this is begging the question. Anyway, she has already adhered to the cleaning standards; again, its a dead horse
- "You’d think they would have already got a new place" - explained by - they weren't explicitly told that they had to do this ASAP.
-"They don’t even come into the church service anymore" - explained by - did they even know that they were expected to? But I can see why the ISTP sees this as ungrateful and inconsiderate.
- "They just sleep in until ten or so on Saturdays and Sundays watching television." - explained by - since when was this a crime?
- "Even though they are moving out, I will still have to stop by their house because she obviously doesn’t know how to parent her children." - its likely the ISFP does need help but does the ISTP really have to play the martyr?

 

[Southern Kross]

Interesting, Southern Cross. I rarely conclude that someone is a bad person altogether.

I think Fe and Fi just draw their conclusions at different points. Fe tends to be more upfront and rigid initially, but adjustable as it gathers context and perspective on the individual situation (this is why you hear Fe-ers often asking a lot of questions that may seem invasive or probing to Fi users. They are trying to figure out motivations and gather additional information that would help them make a balanced judgement). From what I've noticed, Fi seems to be very flexible at the outset and very reluctant to be judgemental, but comes to a fairly black and white decision at the end that is not easily changed, particularly if values are involved.

What you've described is my experience with Fe (particularly dom/aux). You guys seem to talk tough, then back down at least to a degree when people point out the possible problems with your views. I think you're also right about the Fi process. I take a long time to consider the possible options, explanations and counter-arguments before I become rigid in my views; after that its difficult to change my mind because I think I've covered all my bases.

I am quite outspoken (in my thoughts and in private company) about my opinions on their behaviour though. Behaviour and the person themselves are somehow distinct for me in some regards, even though I highly value integrity. One of my biggest problems in fact tends to be that once I have figured out the cause of their bad behaviour, I tend to excuse more than I should or not draw firm boundaries for what I will and won't accept. Over time, I've discovered that it is much kinder to have those boundaries clear and draw them earlier than I am naturally inclined to, so that I don't become resentful with them and so that they don't feel criticized or condemned.

That's interesting. I think its very important for Fe-ers to explicitly define their boundaries so we all know how to meet their needs (or at least know when to feel guilty when we fail to do so ). Again this is more about dom/aux because I've noticed a lot of Fe ter/inf users have problems recognising the boundaries too.

I might be reading too much into this but do you sometimes feel like sympathising too much with the individual in question will cloud your judgement and detract from the matter at hand?

 

[Orangey]

With the majority of the points of conflict, yes.

Acording to the ISTP the ISFP is terrible because:

- "The kids are malnourished/drink milk all the time" - explained by - a) young children tend to be hopeless eaters, b) milk is actually good for them. However, perhaps the ISFP doesn't know the correct things to feed children because no one taught her and needs help with this.
- "They run around like dogs" - explained by - they are children. Running around is normal
- "They aren't toilet trained" - explained by - they are all 3 and under. This is normal
- "I don't want her to toilet train them - it will ruin the carpet" - illogical - You can't complain they aren't toilet trained, then tell her she can't toilet train them
- "The kids are sick all the time" - explained by - Its winter. People get colds, especially children
- "The children are filthy/wear dirty diapers/aren't properly dressed" - fair points and should be addressed
-"[She was messy]" - illogical - This issue has already been addressed. Its beating a dead horse.
-"Its only a matter of time before she slacks and let’s everything get messy again." - illogical - you can't blame someone for something they haven't done yet.
-"[Our standards of cleaning] should be obvious [to her]" - explained by - she's not psychic. People have different approaches to housework and the ISFP wasn't informed that she was required to keep a certain standard.
- "The children don't talk" - explained by - a) they are still young. Children learn at different rates, b) they may be shy
-"All she does is hold the baby" - ???
-"[I can't contact a speech development specialist because] they would take her kids away" - fair point but only if she genuinely believes this, otherwise its just dramatics
-"An introverted person wouldn't beg for help" - illogical - a) this is begging the question, b) she wasn't even 'begging' for help anyway (as the ISTP admits)
- "She told someone from the church her sob story, so what else could we do?"- illogical - how is the ISFP's fault? The ISTP didn't want to help her but was forced to out of pity/religious obligation and is now blaming the inconvenience of this on the ISFP. Lovely.
- "If she cared about her kids she wouldn't have cancelled her doctors appointments" - illogical - again this is begging the question. And perhaps the ISFP felt burdensome, however, I agree she still should keep going to the doctor
- "We had to change our schedules when she wanted a ride to the doctor's" - illogical - this is complaining that she doesn't go to the doctors, then complaining that she does. She's damned if she does, damned if she doesn't.
- "If she cared about burdening us she would do a better job cleaning up" - illogical - this is begging the question. Anyway, she has already adhered to the cleaning standards; again, its a dead horse
- "You’d think they would have already got a new place" - explained by - they weren't explicitly told that they had to do this ASAP.
-"They don’t even come into the church service anymore" - explained by - did they even know that they were expected to? But I can see why the ISTP sees this as ungrateful and inconsiderate.
- "They just sleep in until ten or so on Saturdays and Sundays watching television." - explained by - since when was this a crime?
- "Even though they are moving out, I will still have to stop by their house because she obviously doesn’t know how to parent her children." - its likely the ISFP does need help but does the ISTP really have to play the martyr?

These would only "solve the problem" if it were absolutely true that these complaints are imaginary. We don't know that. All we have to go on are the words of the ISTP lady and the OP, neither of whom, at this point, are able to reliably convey the reality of the situation (the ISTP lady because she was "mean" and has been painted as having an evil agenda against the ISFP mother, and the OP because she's not knowledgeable and also has an agenda.)

If any of these problems are rooted in something that actually exists (e.g., the mother really does only feed her children milk, and they really are filthy), then simply having the ISTP "understand" that it's the result of the ISFP's never having had any home training or whatever, or that she's not ungrateful (which we also don't know), or that her feelings were hurt, will solve nothing in and of itself. They may not even make the ISTP lady feel less resentful.

Also, what is with this lack of concern about the milk thing? It is most definitely NOT healthy to feed one's children large amounts of milk, much less ONLY milk. Ever hear of iron deficiency anemia? If it's true that they won't eat anything but milk because they're habituated/not trained, that is a serious issue. And it's not going to be solved merely (or even necessarily) by feeling all "awww, the poor thing, she just doesn't know" towards the mother.

 

[skylights]

I think I've always had difficulty with dom/aux Fi - my more unvarnished, full self is going to be less palatable and ripe for dissension and misunderstanding to them, and to be fair, theirs is to me too.

not implying that i have any problem with you not having a lot of Fi dom/aux close friends - personally i tend to collect ExFJs for reasons completely unclear to me - but just so that you know, at least to almost all NFPs i have ever known, and myself too, your uncensored self is the best part of you. we really like that! not that there won't be misunderstandings, but FPs in general tend to dwell at that level of "here is all of me" all the time anyway. i think people's walls (eg Fe distance) tend to frustrate me more than seeing someone's personal anger, hurt, or biases do - it's easier to like someone the closer we get and the more flaws i see.

i actually think that's why it was easy for me personally to feel anger towards the ISTP when i read the OP. i don't know her, or her background, her history, her dreams and accomplishments, the things she yearns for and the things that make her delight and the things that make her sad. harder to empathize with someone you don't know.

my point being, i think that if you did choose to open up, the FP in question might be more accepting than you would expect

Fi users feel exactly, exactly EXACTLY the same way-We want to be able to vent through all the Fi stuff we are feeling, get it out of our heads as we work out the details and figure out was is okay and not okay to feel, what and why are values may or may not be okay-THAT is actually what you see me doing in this thread. Exact same stuff, same needs.....oh, yeah it totally sounds judgmental and reactive...cause it is in mid process...

But if I accept you guys Ti venting for what it is, can I ask you to take my Fi venting for what it is and not be offended or call me schizophrenic or too sensitive or overly emotional? Hmmmm??? I know, I know...

Cascadeco, I am afraid ENFPs work backwards from your explanation-we are initially very open and sharing to Everyone and tend to get emotionally mauled as a result and learn the hard way who to shut out and who to let in. We start off extroverting the inner Fi goo, get hurt, then we layer weird Te bandages and shadowy Ni to try and keep the inner self hidden-because we dont have the Fe ability to separate the inside emo from the outer display??

yeah. part of our growing process is learning that not everyone feels that openness is healing, even though it is for us.

Is it just that Fi doesn't vocalize their negative feelings about anyone until they've decided the person is a despicable human being? From the horrified Fi reaction here it kinda seems like that might be so....which would be very interesting

well, i don't think of anyone as a despicable human being. personally i believe that people can do despicable things, but no one is despicable by nature.

so as an answer to the question you posed, no. in some ways Fi is a lot like Ti in that it tends to identify problems in the system and be quieter when everything is running smoothly. so you tend to see our negative feelings, but not all the beautiful, positive ones that also are present. just as Fs need to learn to understand that Ti tends to highlight failings in a logic system to enhance understanding - not just to be negative and offensive - non-Fi dom/aux also need to accept that our expressed feelings are a similar sort of "hey something isn't right here let's figure out what it is". i don't believe anyone is a terrible person inherently - i believe all people are fundamentally good and have the continued potential for good despite anything they've done - but when i am venting, it would be fairly useless to state that. what i need to do in venting is clear out all the heated, jumbled emotions inside me and sort through / pinpoint what the real problem going on is. so it's necessarily going to be a bunch of negatives, and probably overwrought ones at that.

and at least personally, i do tend to withhold outspoken judgment until i feel that it is more harmful to the greater good if i do not talk than if i do.

I think Fe and Fi just draw their conclusions at different points. Fe tends to be more upfront and rigid initially, but adjustable as it gathers context and perspective on the individual situation (this is why you hear Fe-ers often asking a lot of questions that may seem invasive or probing to Fi users. They are trying to figure out motivations and gather additional information that would help them make a balanced judgement). From what I've noticed, Fi seems to be very flexible at the outset and very reluctant to be judgemental, but comes to a fairly black and white decision at the end that is not easily changed, particularly if values are involved.

i definitely agree with your points about Fe and Fi having different boundary areas. for me there is usually a distinct "tipping point" - the same thing i was talking about in reference to randomnity's quote - it's the point at which, if i don't say (or do) something, then it will be worse for everyone. and it's quite "far in", if that makes sense. it's not at all up front. i think most FPs are very live and let live in terms of behavior - we really don't care what others do - up until the point where it seems like they're really hurting someone. so i guess that's the black-and-white aspect, but it's not so much about people being good or bad as it is about a clear point at which the whole situation tips from "no real problem" to "this is harmful". and that's probably a point which has been very well thought over in the FP's head... it's taken a lot of consideration, hesitation, second-guessing, doubts, fears, and general weighting to get there. after all, what that point necessitates for an FP is often risking their own personal good in the face of public disapproval, criticism from people who love them, general rejection, etc. not to make FPs sound like martyrs, i just mean that it's likely to be a very carefully decided-on place because there is a lot at stake.

anyway, i'm totally agreed with you there - i rarely hear FPs question their final decision about when to speak up.

(ps i seriously doubt you meant it this way, but i kinda dislike the phrase "black and white"... it feels to me like it carries connotations of moral simplicity/stupidity... i dunno if others feel this way too?)

Of course we vent about people, but speaking for myself, I tend to avoid utterly condemning someone when I do so. Even when someone annoys the hell out of me I am very circumspect about speaking as if my view is reflective of some objective truth (ie. that everyone should agree with me). I only do so when there is damning evidence that they are a shitty person; anything less than that, I assume it is merely my opinion. Even then I will often blame myself to some degree for the problems. I will second guess myself and think that my annoyance is my own fault because: a) I am failing to properly understand their position, b) I am too irritable and easily annoyed, c) I am being too sensitive, d) I am doing something, or failing to do something, that causes them to behave this way, d) I expect too much of them, e) they can't help it/don't mean to be that way and consequently I'm horrible for thinking meanly of them.

Fi has a keen sense of the shades of complexities in regards to human behaviour - for us there is no black and white (ie. either neglect or no neglect) in relation to such issues. I think O probably thinks that the mother could be taking better care of her kids but that she is hardly deserving of such harsh criticism. I also think O feels that if the ISTP were to make the effort to see things from the other woman's point of view, she wouldn't be so critical of her - it bothers her that most of these problems could be solved if the ISTP considered all of the contributing factors but she flatly refuses to do so. Its not just offensive to us because she's being unfairly judgemental, we actually find it nonsensical and unreasonable.

right. the way the ISTP is looking at things doesn't just seem kinda mean, it seems kinda irrational

Why is it that ENFP's alleged Fi can seem so alien and strange (and yes, melodramatic and overemotional) to me yet the INFP's I can identify with? I can set my clock by it.

possibly the whole extraverting-Fi-with-Te thing? probably seems like beating someone with a giant plush toy.

 

[Orangey]

i actually think that's why it was easy for me personally to feel anger towards the ISTP when i read the OP. i don't know her, or her background, her history, her dreams and accomplishments, the things she yearns for and the things that make her delight and the things that make her sad. harder to empathize with someone you don't know.

So what you're saying is that we shouldn't take your opinion of the ISTP seriously at all?

not that what she did wasn't good, but it ended up having some negative consequences for both herself and the family that could probably have been avoided.

What negative consequences? Some hurt feelings/pride? Some interpersonal problems? How can those things possibly outweigh the fact that the family were provided amenities for living during a critical period of time in their lives?

 

[JoSunshine]

i think most FPs are very live and let live in terms of behavior.

This may be slightly off topic, but this quote seems to open the door to a question that has been lingering in my head since my last relationship (with an IxFP). It seems that during the course of our relationship, I experienced many of the same kinds of issues I have with my ISFP friend. And I have been wondering if it is an Fe vs Fi issue.

Neither of them ever direct me or tell me what to do and don't like being told what to do either. But within every relationship there are responsibilities and obligations and I felt as if I was often left "holding the bag" and having to constantly work around them because if they didn't want to do something (even it was something they committed to) they just weren't going to do it. I felt like they worked on an internal sense that guided them to do whatever was going to make them feel best at that moment (avoidance of discomfort or pain) regardless of the impact it had on others UNLESS the pain those others would inflict on them exceeded the pain of the actual thing they were doing (e.g. "I don't want to go, but if I don't X person will scream and yell at me which is more painful than not going."). It seems that knowing I wouldl have to pay consequences for their actions wasn't a motivator (even if I expressed what those consequences were). There had to be a direct impact on their well-being. Which I found frustrating and even hurtful at times (especially since I am not one to get aggressive). I found it ironic that the two people who seem to want to be controlled the least seemed to be motivated to consistently follow through only by aggression - the worst form of controlling behavior. Both had their longest term relationships with very controlling, negative people (ESTJ & ESTP, I think).

As for how they treated me - they never told me what to do, but seemed to have a general expectation that I would be there for them whenever they decided they wanted to come around and seemed to be very hurt if I wasn't (which of course I responded to - I am an enfj, after all). How it feels to me is that they want me to be there for them when they need or want me and they want to be there for me when they want or have to be. I know that statement is very cut and dry, and I know there are far more complexities to what I am observing / feeling.

I just want to note that these are two very dear people to me, but this particular aspect of our relationship seems to cause the most issues. Fi-doms, please lend your insight.

 

[skylights]

i actually think that's why it was easy for me personally to feel anger towards the ISTP when i read the OP. i don't know her, or her background, her history, her dreams and accomplishments, the things she yearns for and the things that make her delight and the things that make her sad. harder to empathize with someone you don't know.

So what you're saying is that we shouldn't take your opinion of the ISTP seriously at all?

yes, exactly. that's why i spend hours posting here, so i leave large chunks of worthless type around the internet.

what i'm saying is that what i felt is just one side of the issue, which is what the ISTP did wrong. everything i wrote is legitimate in my eyes, but it's not a balanced account, because it does not also consider things from the ISTP's point of view. it's not a reflection of my feelings towards the ISTP on the whole, it's not a reflection of my character judgment of the ISTP on the whole (i have not made one, as i do not know her), and it's not a reflection of Fi on the whole. i wrote this quote in reply to cascadeco in an attempt to explain how it's easier for an FP to be accepting when they see the whole person. honestly, i feel like you just pulled my quote out of context and cast it in a negative light. it feels like an attack on the legitimacy of my opinion simply because you disagree with me.

What negative consequences? Some hurt feelings/pride? Some interpersonal problems? How can those things possibly outweigh the fact that the family were provided amenities for living during a critical period of time in their lives?

you don't see any difficulties at all to acclimating to a new place and then being told you have 1 week to find a different residence?

psychological atmospheres matter. feelings matter. relationships matter. respect matters. all of that has bearing on how people think, feel, and behave. yes, it's higher on maslow's chart than basic physical needs, but it's not unimportant. and i don't think it always outweighs, or necessarily outweighs in this situation (would need more info to really decide), but i think that there could have been ways of going about this that didn't cause the ISTP to be spiteful or the family to have to suddenly lose their residence again. i cannot imagine that to think you have your footing one day and to be kicked out the next is easy.

why is it so awful that i have ideas about how this situation could have gone better? all i'm doing is try to help provide insight and understanding. i'm not saying that the ISTP is at fault for not considering other options, just that maybe if she had done things differently, things could have ended on a more stable, congenial note. this is certainly, unquestionably true for the ISFP family as well, but i know less about their situation, and obviously they are working on changing things. i'm idealizing. it's what NFs do. i'm sorry if it's displeasing to you but in general i find it a helpful way of figuring out how to optimize my life.

there were a lot of negative reactions to orobas's response, and i have been writing on large part in attempt to help explain how this situation tends to appear to a Fi aux, because i assume it is helpful for others to know that, and i assume that having a spectrum of opinions is more useful than just one. the whole thread is contingent on the idea that there are some problems in this situation, so i'm attempting to assess it. is it possible that there's just one problem, and that's the way orobas is looking at things? i suppose, but i don't think that's very likely. so i'm trying to chip in and maybe throw in some thoughts that will be helpful to others in some way or another. i'm sorry if my opinions seem stupid or useless or insulting or whatever else to you, but i don't really see why you're insisting that i think that relational issues necessarily outweigh amenities. imo, it depends on the situation, and i really don't have enough info to go by here.

 

[Orangey]

yes, exactly. that's why i spend hours posting here, so i leave large chunks of worthless type around the internet.

what i'm saying is that you're seeing one side of the issue, which is what the ISTP did wrong. everything i wrote is legitimate in my eyes, but it's not a balanced account, because it does not also consider things from the ISTP's point of view.

Why should we take your opinion of the ISTP woman seriously when you've just admitted that you judged her more harshly than you'd ought? That you judged improperly because, lacking intimate knowledge about this specific woman (and, apparently, the ability to imagine what her hopes/dreams/whatever might be, or that she has any at all), you could not empathize with her?

you don't see any difficulties at all to acclimating to a new place and then being told you have 1 week to find a different residence?

When did I say there were no difficulties? I said that these difficulties are outweighed by the fact that they were freely provided with the necessities for living during a time when they were not able to provide for themselves.

That's not to say that there were no unkindnesses visited upon them during their stay (or that these unkindnesses were justified), but simply that, taken together, the "loss" suffered by the family is petty compared to what was gained. Therefore, it is foolishness to suggest that the family might have been better off not accepting the offer, or that the ISTP oughtn't have offered what she did.

psychological atmospheres matter. feelings matter. relationships matter. respect matters. all of that has bearing on how people think, feel, and behave. yes, it's higher on maslow's chart than basic physical needs, but it's not unimportant. and i don't think it outweighs, but i think that there could have been ways of going about this that didn't cause the ISTP to be spiteful or the family to have to suddenly lose their residence again. to think you have your footing one day and to be kicked out the next, that's traumatizing.

I never said those things didn't matter, but they certainly matter a lot less in certain circumstances, e.g., the one described in the OP. Being given a week's notice to move out is more detestable an act because it's rash and discourteous (how can they secure a place in that time?) than because it made the family feel bad. Sure, it would be nice for everyone to get along and for the world to be filled with sparkles and roses, but truth be told, nobody is ever really entitled to have their feelings coddled, much less when they're living by choice off of someone else's good graces.

why is it so awful that i have ideas about how this situation could have gone better? all i'm doing is try to help provide insight and understanding. i'm not saying that the ISTP is at fault for not considering this, just that maybe if she had done things differently, things could have ended on a more stable, congenial note.

How can anyone make meaningful suggestions as to how the situation could have gone better if the situation itself is not properly understood?

Furthermore, you say that you're not blaming the ISTP (and you may even believe that), but you are in effect putting all of the responsibility for the outcomes of the situation on her. It's all about what she could have done to avoid her own feelings of resentment, as though nobody else had anything to do with that; what she could have understood to make her less critical; what she could have said to keep the relationship on good terms.

Why is she bearing the burden of responsibility alone? Are the couple being helped not also adults? Did they throw away their ability to determine their own lives when they accepted her offer? Just because we've been told that they're less capable because they're young and ignorant, and that they're butthurt about the ISTP woman's judgmental attitude, does not mean that they are not just as responsible for what they do/think/feel as the ISTP woman is. What could they have done to make the situation better? What could they have done to curb their feelings of resentment? What didn't they do that caused them to be kicked out more abruptly than originally planned? Why don't we talk about that?

i'm idealizing. it's what NFs do. i'm sorry if it's displeasing to you but in general i find it a helpful way of figuring out how to optimize my life.

My displeasure, such that it is, has little to do with any "idealizing" you may or may not be doing.

 

[skylights]

Why should we take your opinion of the ISTP woman seriously when you've just admitted that you judged her more harshly than you'd ought? That you judged improperly because, lacking intimate knowledge about this specific woman (and, apparently, the ability to imagine what her hopes/dreams/whatever might be, or that she has any at all), you could not empathize with her?

i did not admit to any of that, and i find it extremely unpleasant for you to claim that i admitted something that i absolutely did not. i did not admit i judged her more harshly than i should have, i did not admit that i judged improperly, and i did not say that i could not empathize with her.

i said my judgment is legitimate, but it is one sided. it's like you see an object that is red and some other blurry color you can't tell, so you point out that it's red. legitimate but not the whole story.

I said that these difficulties are outweighed by the fact that they were freely provided with the necessities for living during a time when they were not able to provide for themselves.

That's not to say that there were no unkindnesses visited upon them during their stay (or that these unkindnesses were justified), but simply that, taken together, the "loss" suffered by the family is petty compared to what was gained. Therefore, it is foolishness to suggest that the family might have been better off not accepting the offer, or that the ISTP oughtn't have offered what she did.

according to you. you don't know the whole situation either, though. how come you can make this judgment but you question mine?

I never said those things didn't matter, but they certainly matter a lot less in certain circumstances, e.g., the one described in the OP. Being given a week's notice to move out is more detestable an act because it's rash and discourteous (how can they secure a place in that time?) than because it made the family feel bad. Sure, it would be nice for everyone to get along and for the world to be filled with sparkles and roses, but truth be told, nobody is ever really entitled to have their feelings coddled, much less when they're living of their own volition off of someone else's good graces.

again with the "feelings don't matter"... maybe not to you, but they do matter to me. and i'm willing to bet they matter to a pair of ISFPs.

How can anyone make meaningful suggestions as to how the situation could have gone better if the situation itself is not properly understood?

are you implying that you can ever really fully understand a situation? you will never know all the details. you will never have been there and see what they saw and thought what they thought. that does not make suggestions unhelpful or meaningless - though i'm not really suggesting anything. i'm really just brainstorming to the group.

Furthermore, you say that you're not blaming the ISTP (and you may even believe that), but you are in effect putting all of the responsibility for the outcomes of the situation on her. It's all about what she could have done to avoid her own feelings of resentment, as though nobody else had anything to do with that. Why is she bearing the burden of responsibility alone? Are the couple being helped not also adults? Did they throw away their ability to determine their own lives when they accepted her offer? Just because we've been told that they're less capable because they're young and ignorant does not mean that they are not just as responsible for what they do/think/feel as the ISTP woman is. What could they have done to make the situation better? What didn't they do that caused them to be kicked out more abruptly than originally planned? Why don't we talk about that?

you should talk about it then. i don't have any problems with that. i tend to side with the family because they aren't being openly critical in this situation. the situation seemed to need balance - someone pointing out the ISTP's flaws, because the ISFP's flaws have quite obviously been brought to light.

 

[A window to the soul]

Please help me understand why she feels it is okay to be so mean to this poor women? Why is she wanting to "help" someone she says horrible things about all the time? My apologies for the Fi judgments in the convo...it seemed best to include how i felt vs what I actually said......

The ISTP woman you described is what's known as 'toxic'...

"Toxic" people suck up our time and energy, drain our self esteem, and leave us with little room to look at our own needs, rather than theirs.

An Interesting read...
http://news.myjoyonline.com/features/200905/30737.asp
author Brett Blumenthal

These people can't appreciate the positive in life. If you tell them that it is a beautiful day, they will tell you about the impending dreary forecast. If you tell them you aced a mid-term, they'll tell you about how difficult the final is going to be.

People who aren't sincere or genuine build relationships on superficial criteria. This breeds shallow, meaningless relationships. When you are really in need of a friend, they won't be there. When you really need constructive criticism, they would rather tell you that you are great the way you are. When you need support, they would rather see you fail or make a fool of yourself.

These people will say or do things at the most inappropriate times and in the most inappropriate ways. In essence, they are more subtle, grown up bullies.

You can never give enough to these people to make them happy. They find ways to continually fault you and never take responsibility for anything themselves.

Why they are toxic: You will spend so much time trying to please them, that you will end up losing yourself in the process. They will require all of your time and energy, leaving you worn out and your own needs sacrificed.

All of these personalities have several things in common. 1) the more these people get away with their behavior, the more they will continue. 2) Unfortunately, most of these people don't see that what they do is wrong and as a result, talking to them about it will fall on deaf ears, leaving you wondering if you are the crazy one. 3) Most of these people get worse with age, making their impact on you stronger with time.

 

[Orangey]

i did not say any of that. i said my judgment is legitimate, but it is one sided. it's like you see an object that is red and some other blurry color you can't tell, so you point out that it's red. legitimate but not the whole story.

If I saw an object that was red and some other blurry color, I'd say that it was red and some other blurry color that I couldn't identify. It'd be false if I said or implied that it was just red.

according to you. you don't know the whole situation either, though. how come you can make this judgment but you question mine?

1. You don't know what the ISFP woman or her husband are feeling, nor to what degree, so how can you make a judgment that's based entirely on the emotional damage they've supposedly suffered as a result of this situation? All you can do is project what you'd feel, which tells you nothing other than what you'd feel. And frankly, that information is useless to anyone else besides yourself.

2. The family consists of an SFP father, an ISFP mother, and three kids. Any emotional damage being suffered affects only the mother and father, but every member of the family is benefiting from having the material means of living provided them. Therefore, the material advantage of having the means of living provided to all of the family members outweighs the emotional damage suffered by only two.

3. It is more important to survive than it is to feel good.

4. If you don't buy into #3 above, then it's more important for one's dependents to survive than for one to feel good.

again with the "feelings don't matter"... maybe not to you, but they do matter to me. and i'm willing to bet they matter to a pair of ISFPs.

I'm saying that they don't have to matter to anyone, not that they don't matter to you or I. That's nice if they matter to you, and I'm sure the world would be a nicer place if they mattered to more people, but nobody is obligated to care for your feelings (save your parents, to some degree at least). As such, it is unreasonable to expect, or feel entitled to, that kind of emotional care.

are you implying that you can ever really fully understand a situation? you will never know all the details. you will never have been there and see what they saw and thought what they thought. that does not make suggestions unhelpful or meaningless - though i'm not really suggesting anything. i'm really just brainstorming to the group.

No, that's not what I'm implying. I'm saying that right now we do not have enough information to make any meaningful suggestions, not that we never could. This thread has really provided little to no concrete information about the situation.

you should talk about it then. i don't have any problems with that. i tend to side with the family because they aren't being openly critical in this situation. the situation seemed to need balance - someone pointing out the ISTP's flaws, because the ISFP's flaws have quite obviously been brought to light.

I'm not foolish enough to attempt to talk about that in the lack of any real information.