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2020 Democratic Party primary thread

Maou

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Lol, we pay more and we get worse outcomes for it. Not exactly great.

Examples of worse outcomes? I've heard stories on people waiting months for treatment in the UK etc, to the point that they died. Now if you are talking botched surgeries, accidental infections, and sanitation issues, that is something else. Which is a lot more common than people think in general.

The 10 Best Hospitals in the World
 

Julius_Van_Der_Beak

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U.S. health spending twice other countries' with worse results

Life expectancy in the U.S. was the lowest, at 78.8 years, the study also found. In the other countries, life expectancy ranged from 80.7 to 83.9 years.

Infant mortality rates were highest in the U.S., with 5.8 fatalities out of every 1,000 live births. For other countries, the average infant mortality rate was 3.6 fatalities for every 1,000 live births.

Some individual U.S. states, however, have outcomes on par with other high-income countries. For example, life expectancy in Hawaii, Minnesota and Connecticut were similar to other high-income countries, while life expectancy was much worse in states like Mississippi.

buh small government model is best model
 

Julius_Van_Der_Beak

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It literally says that stays etc are not the issue, its the prices. Bullshit 101. Nothing about the quality of the care they actually do pay for.

Sure, if you don't consider life expectancy or infant morality to be a metric of health care quality. Neoliberalism is a fascinating religion.
 

Maou

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Sure, if you don't consider life expectancy or infant morality to be a metric of health care quality. Neoliberalism is a fascinating religion.

Infant mortality can be caused by copious amounts of issues, from bad genes, to parents being fucking slobs. It is intellectually dishonest to blame it on cost of health care, since birthing children has been done for centuries without it.
 

Julius_Van_Der_Beak

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Infant mortality can be caused by copious amounts of issues, from bad genes, to parents being fucking slobs. It is intellectually dishonest to blame it on cost of health care, since birthing children has been done for centuries without it.

I didn't just blame it on cost of health care. I blamed it on quality of health care. My point is that we pay more,and we don't get better care for the more money we pay. Which means that by any objective metric (except lobbyist dollars which doesn't apply for you) it's really dumb to say the system is just fine as it is and doesn't need changing.

I don't like paying more money for something that's shittier, and I presume most people do not.
 

Maou

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I didn't just blame it on cost of health care. I blamed it on quality of health care. My point is that we pay more,and we don't get better care for the more money we pay. Which means that by any objective metric (except lobbyist dollars which doesn't apply for you) it's really dumb to say the system is just fine as it is and doesn't need changing.

I don't like paying more money for something that's shittier, and I presume most people do not.

I already asked you for a source on that too. I would say a lot of data is skewed based on the "Accessability" access, where it lists China and India as the best healthcare providers in the world. I would be a bit fucking skeptical. The data itself is mired in political interests and lobbying.
 

Merced

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Infant mortality can be caused by copious amounts of issues, from bad genes, to parents being fucking slobs. It is intellectually dishonest to blame it on cost of health care, since birthing children has been done for centuries without it.

Yeah, it's been done centuries before without it, but most of those babies notoriously died. It's not intellectually dishonest to not use a ye old standard of 'fucking hope this one can breathe'.

Also, you cited basically the same source of infant mortality (blame the parents). That would be a solid conclusion, but the statistics show there is a disproportionate amount of infant immortality across America. Specifically in places where healthcare quality is low.

Not gonna lie, arguing remotely near the stance of "People deserve to die" is pretty fucked, dude. I know facts don't care about feelings but there's still ethics to consider.
 

ceecee

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Infant mortality can be caused by copious amounts of issues, from bad genes, to parents being fucking slobs. It is intellectually dishonest to blame it on cost of health care, since birthing children has been done for centuries without it.

Unless you live in the 15th century, infant and maternal mortality is almost entirely based in pre and post natal care. Maternal mortality, which has been rising in the US for years, usually due to one of two things -pre-eclampsia (and eclampsia) and hemorrhage. Both of which can be avoided with pre-natal care and vigilance during delivery.

U.S. Has The Worst Rate of Maternal Deaths In The Developed World : NPR

More American women are dying of pregnancy-related complications than any other developed country. Only in the U.S. has the rate of women who die been rising.

You sound incredibly ignorant on this subject and it has EVERYTHING to do with the cost of healthcare. It's the reason poor women delay seeing a doctor, it's the reason real steps are not taken to improve doctor and nurses awareness and hospitals improving these numbers.
 

Julius_Van_Der_Beak

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I already asked you for a source on that too. I would say a lot of data is skewed based on the "Accessability" access, where it lists China and India as the best healthcare providers in the world. I would be a bit fucking skeptical. The data itself is mired in political interests and lobbying.

I don't see a single mention of China or India in my link, or in the journal article the link gets its data from. It looked solely at 11 high income countries. India and China have nothing to do with it.

I'd say life expectancy and infant mortality are a good measure of health care quality. Isn't it one of the jobs of healthcare to prevent people from dying?
 

Virtual ghost

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Right. It's so incredibly dumb, not to mention the ones that think they can arbitrarily assign "gender" to a economic and political system. The ignorance you see here is just a tiny portion, it's so widespread.


I know, all of this is knocking on my doors for quite some time. Therefore the opponents of open westernization and marketisation are saying that we should stop with this before we are all idiots or emotionally unstable people. Here there are full squares of protesters over these issues, even the Church is fairly openly on this side. Since this is simply "perversion of God's work". I mean right wing as right wing - they don't like fundamental changes (for better or for worse).



Example of a problem: those that constantly post videos about gender based trashing, she wants your money, etc. is something that is spilling over the internet and causing social problems here. Therefore I would treat this as terrorism and a national security threat, since this is what this basically is. Especially in ex war zones that have a problem with having enough births or started families.
The number of people that are getting fed up with open westernization, neo-liberalism or however you want to call it is growing here. Since it is destroying social structure with pure idiotism.




I meant that I'm more radical in the context of the population of this forum, not necessarily worldwide.


I know but that is exactly why I am rising perspective to global level. My whole point was that Bernie isn't really a radical if you observe bigger picture. In my part of the world you have plenty of politicians that are clearly to the left of him.
 

Virtual ghost

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Examples of worse outcomes? I've heard stories on people waiting months for treatment in the UK etc, to the point that they died. Now if you are talking botched surgeries, accidental infections, and sanitation issues, that is something else. Which is a lot more common than people think in general.

The 10 Best Hospitals in the World


People in US also wait, or they wait for years because they just don't have the money (since someone outsourced the only factory in town)

Plus to solve this problem my local healthcare is taking emergencies over the line. While ambulance is "free" the last time I checked.



The biggest problem for such systems is when politicians are keeping it underfunded in order to destroy the trust in it. So that they can start selling it piece by piece.
For what they generally aren't even authorized because this system is a private property of the entire nation.
 

ceecee

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People US also wait, or they wait for years because they just don't have the money (since someone outsourced the only factory in town)

Plus to solve this problem my local healthcare is taking emergencies over the line. While ambulance is "free" the last time I checked.



The biggest problem for such systems is when politicians are keeping it underfunded in order to destroy the trust in it. So that they can start selling it piece by piece.
For what they generally aren't even authorized because this system is a private property of the entire nation.

Yes, thank you, exactly.
 

Tellenbach

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Julius_Van_Der_Beak said:
I didn't just blame it on cost of health care. I blamed it on quality of health care. My point is that we pay more,and we don't get better care for the more money we pay. Which means that by any objective metric (except lobbyist dollars which doesn't apply for you) it's really dumb to say the system is just fine as it is and doesn't need changing.

I don't like paying more money for something that's shittier, and I presume most people do not.

We're paying the salaries of tens of thousands of bureaucrats to administer Medicare/Medicaid; much of the money we spend isn't going to the hospital or the doctor; it's going to bureaucrats who don't provide any health care. Furthermore, with any bureaucracy, there is very little accountability when there is waste, fraud and abuse. Because tax payer dollars isn't the bureaucrats' money, they have little incentive to pay attention to waste, fraud, and abuse. This is why Medicare fraud and waste costs taxpayers around $100 billion/year.

If the government stayed out of healthcare, costs would plummet like they have with LASIK eye surgery and other procedures where the government isn't involved. Medicare doesn't pay for LASIK, so the consumer has to spend money out of pocket and that consumer will do a much better job looking out for waste and abuse than a bureaucrat sitting in some office building hundreds of miles away.

The problem with the Dems running is that few of them understand economics; they do not understand how taxes and regulations affect the economy. Bernie and Warren have no idea why a $15 minimum wage is a bad idea. It's all based on emotion. This is why Reaganomics and Trumponomics have both been spectacular successes. They relied on economists who relied on empirical evidence, not emotion. If you recall, NYT economist Krugman actually predicted a global recession when Trump got elected; this was purely an emotional reaction. Krugman should probably return the Nobel Prize because he doesn't deserve it.
 

Virtual ghost

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I would say the basis of American anti-socialism is rooted in our history, and the idea of independence more than anything. I would say it is even part of American culture. While I agree that American medicine is shit price wise, but we do not have wait times. We have very high quality care. Far as I am concerned, apart from costs. Its great.

Another thing you should take note of, is that it is not good that every country be exactly the same. Look at it from an evolutionary perspective. Diversity is unironically the strength in globalism. That applies to government structures too. The more different each country is, the more it can provide different opinions and survive different things. I think America does something that other countries do not, and that is a good thing.


I don't really see it that way. You just prefer to be dependent on the market more than a government or whatever. There is nothing fundamentally wrong with this but this is still a form of dependence and playing by the rules of the bigger whole. Especially if things go wrong, since in that cases you are probably without back up and vulnerable (what is in my book the opposite of being independent). This is why I said that American culture in my book has a problem with telling the difference between freedom and "you are on your own". What can be two very different things.
 

Julius_Van_Der_Beak

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We're paying the salaries of tens of thousands of bureaucrats to administer Medicare/Medicaid; much of the money we spend isn't going to the hospital or the doctor; it's going to bureaucrats who don't provide any health care. Furthermore, with any bureaucracy, there is very little accountability when there is waste, fraud and abuse. Because tax payer dollars isn't the bureaucrats' money, they have little incentive to pay attention to waste, fraud, and abuse. This is why Medicare fraud and waste costs taxpayers around $100 billion/year.

If the government stayed out of healthcare, costs would plummet like they have with LASIK eye surgery and other procedures where the government isn't involved. Medicare doesn't pay for LASIK, so the consumer has to spend money out of pocket and that consumer will do a much better job looking out for waste and abuse than a bureaucrat sitting in some office building hundreds of miles away.

The problem with the Dems running is that few of them understand economics; they do not understand how taxes and regulations affect the economy. Bernie and Warren have no idea why a $15 minimum wage is a bad idea. It's all based on emotion. This is why Reaganomics and Trumponomics have both been spectacular successes. They relied on economists who relied on empirical evidence, not emotion. If you recall, NYT economist Krugman actually predicted a global recession when Trump got elected; this was purely an emotional reaction. Krugman should probably return the Nobel Prize because he doesn't deserve it.

Nice try, but it doesn't explain why health care costs more and has worse outcomes than countries that are more socialized. If socialization was bad, you'd expect the care in those countries to either cost more or have worse outcomes or both. Instead, the one that's the least socialized is the most expensive and the shittiest.

Methinks the problem is not Medicare and Medicaid.
 

Maou

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I don't really see it that way. You just prefer to be dependent on the market more than a government or whatever. There is nothing fundamentally wrong with this but this is still a form of dependence and playing by the rules of the bigger whole. Especially if things go wrong, since in that cases you are probably without back up and vulnerable (what is in my book the opposite of being independent). This is why I said that American culture in my book has a problem with telling the difference between freedom and "you are on your own". What can be two very different things.

By that logic, humans are indefinitely dependent on something. Which imo, is a given. Which is why I prefer potential, over standard. Because at least then, things can go beyond expectation. I believe humans are far more capable in what they can do for themselves, and assistance only breeds weakness and reliance.
 

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Julius_Van_Der_Beak said:
Nice try, but it doesn't explain why health care costs more and has worse outcomes than countries that are more socialized. If socialization was bad, you'd expect the care in those countries to either cost more or have worse outcomes or both. Instead, the one that's the least socialized is the most expensive and the shittiest.

I already explained why health care costs more; whenever the government subsidizes something, such as education and healthcare, costs go up because people running the hospitals and universities know they can charge an arm and an leg for a service and the government will pay for it. Without government intervention, there is more transparency in costs, more competition for customers, and better quality as a result.

For example, when someone goes in for a LASIK procedure, he knows the cost; when a patient is in a hospital, he doesn't know the costs.

The reason for slightly lower life expectancy is obesity and heart disease; Americans do a great job serving delicious but unhealthy food and we're eating too many carbs. Again, this is the fault of the government because the USDA's food pyramid tells people to eat a bunch of carbs. The American diet causes more heart disease and obesity related illnesses compared to other nations.
 

Julius_Van_Der_Beak

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I already explained why health care costs more; whenever the government subsidizes something, such as education and healthcare, costs go up because people running the hospitals and universities know they can charge an arm and an leg for a service and the government will pay for it. Without government intervention, there is more transparency in costs, more competition for customers, and better quality as a result.

For example, when someone goes in for a LASIK procedure, he knows the cost; when a patient is in a hospital, he doesn't know the costs.

The reason for slightly lower life expectancy is obesity and heart disease; Americans do a great job serving delicious but unhealthy food and we're eating too many carbs. Again, this is the fault of the government because the USDA's food pyramid tells people to eat a bunch of carbs. The American diet causes more heart disease and obesity related illnesses compared to other nations.

It doesn't explain anything. Health care costs less in places with more socialization and it works better. It seems to me like you're the one relying on emotion.


If the government made healthcare more expensive, it ought to cost more in places that have single-payer like Canada and the U.K.
 

Tellenbach

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Julius_Van_Der_Beak said:
Health care costs less in places with more socialization and it works better.

Obviously, poor nations can't afford to pay $100K for a cancer medication or $20,000 for an emergency room visit. If no one can pay $100K for medication, the manufacturer won't charge that amount for it. Here in the US, the government can pay the $100K for a cancer medication so the drug companies are more than happy to charge that much for it.

I don't know what you mean by "works better". I've read horror stories of sick people dying of thirst in UK hospitals waiting to get treatment. If by better outcomes you mean things like longer life expectancy, that's explained by differences in culture and diet.

Also, currently, the patient isn't the customer of the hospital; the government is the customer since it's the government who pays, so where's the incentive for the hospital to treat you well? If they're going to get paid anyways, who cares how they treat patients?

Government intrusion up-ends the customer/business relationship. In most other businesses, the customer is king and businesses will strive to please the customer. That's not the case with healthcare because the patient isn't paying; the patient isn't the customer.
 
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