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2020 Democratic Party primary thread

Doctor Cringelord

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It's a common mistake to assume opposition to Israeli policy equates to anti-Semitism. I know some other people already said this but I'll repeat it.


Just as I think it's a mistake to equate meeting with dictators as being apologists for their regime's actions.
 

Julius_Van_Der_Beak

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I hadn't intended to rehash 2016 but she really did blow it in those northern Midwest states by ignoring them after the primary season. Did she acknowledge this in her recent book? I know she blamed some other reasons on losing, but not sure if she addressed this point. Same mistake Gore made in 2000 when he refused to campaign in his home state, which could've put him over 270 without winning florida.

I can't see why she would have thought that was a good call (but I think Bernie campaigned for her in some of those states, despite his loss being all his fault, lol), given that she lost some of those states in the primary. It seemed very reckless to instead devote attention to Georgia. I would imagine that she does not acknowledge it, and that it's probably Bernie or Russia or something.

I'm not saying Russia didn't do anything, but if she could still win the popular vote in those circumstances, maybe it's worth it to think about if there are things she could have done to secure the electoral vote instead? Russia meddling wasn't evidently enough to give Trump a popular vote advantage.
 

Julius_Van_Der_Beak

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It's a common mistake to assume opposition to Israeli policy equates to anti-Semitism. I know some other people already said this but I'll repeat it.


Just as I think it's a mistake to equate meeting with dictators as being apologists for their regime's actions.

Well, a lot of other Jewish people on my feed weren't abandoning the Democratic party in droves because of Ilhan Omar and I saw some defenses, as well. But it also undoubtedly skews younger than Totenkindly, and polls have showed differences in attitudes toward Israel among younger Jews, as well as among denomination.
 

Doctor Cringelord

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I can't see why she would have thought that was a good call (but I think Bernie campaigned for her in some of those states, despite his loss being all his fault, lol), given that she lost some of those states in the primary. It seemed very reckless to instead devote attention to Georgia. I would imagine that she does not acknowledge it, and that it's probably Bernie or Russia or something.

I'm not saying Russia didn't do anything, but if she could still win the popular vote in those circumstances, maybe it's worth it to think about if there are things she could have done to secure the electoral vote instead? Russia meddling wasn't evidently enough to give Trump a popular vote advantage.

The problem with sending Bernie is that I think it was overestimated how many of his supporters defected to Trump and therefor how much impact his visit would really help her. What was it, like 10 % of Bernie's supporters at most that left him for Trump? Even so, once they'd gone to Trump, I don't think Bernie was going to change their minds, especially if many of them saw him as betraying them to support Hillary. There's really no getting those lost Bernie bros back, especially now.
 

Julius_Van_Der_Beak

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The problem with sending Bernie is that I think it was overestimated how many of his supporters defected to Trump and therefor how much impact his visit would really help her. What was it, like 10 % of Bernie's supporters at most that left him for Trump? Even so, once they'd gone to Trump, I don't think Bernie was going to change their minds, especially if many of them saw him as betraying them to support Hillary. There's really no getting those lost Bernie bros back, especially now.

Well, she should have at least showed up to show that she wasn't ignoring those places? It send a better message to go somewhere in person. That's what I did when I had to "meet" with my Alderman. I showed up to the office in person, even if I ultimately never spoke with her.

Oh, and I have a cousin who is probably a Bernie-Trump voter. I'm not 100% sure he voted for Bernie in the primary, but he seemed to have a much more positive opinion of him. I'm not sure they wouldn't come back, but I don't think Biden's the guy to do it.
 

ceecee

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Well, a lot of other Jewish people on my feed weren't abandoning the Democratic party in droves because of Ilhan Omar and I saw some defenses, as well. But it also undoubtedly skews younger than Totenkindly, and polls have showed differences in attitudes toward Israel among younger Jews, as well as among denomination.

When I saw Ilhan Omar questioning that war criminal fuck Elliott Abrams, I was elated. She is one of the most courageous reps I have ever seen. And the Israeli lobby, she is saying the quiet stuff loud. But she isn't wrong.
 

Doctor Cringelord

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I don’t understand the hate for Ilhan

- - - Updated - - -
[MENTION=4050]ceecee[/MENTION] can you explain why you think Tulsi is a paleocon?
 

ceecee

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I don’t understand the hate for Ilhan

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[MENTION=4050]ceecee[/MENTION] can you explain why you think Tulsi is a paleocon?

Let's cover what paleoconservtism is. Paleoonservationism is a conservative political philosophy which stresses traditionalism, limited government, Christian ethics, regionalism and nationalism.

She worked for her father's anti-gay activist campaigns in Hawaii.

Opposing reproductive rights

She appears to be anti-war. Even with the empathy she has for active duty and veterans - nothing wrong with that and as a veteran herself but I don't buy the anti-war outlook. She seems to have no real grasp of what the US is inflicting on other nations. At all. It's nationalism in antiwar garb, reinforcing instead of undercutting the toxic rhetoric that treats foreigners as less deserving of dignity than Americans. No. We have had enough of that shit period. She is also pro-drone, Obama gave us enough of this.

Nothing I have ever seen or read leads me to believe she really grasps the impact of US foreign policy as a catalyst for anti-American sentiment in the Middle East. According to her the cause of terrorism is Islam. You may remember she was a loud voice in the WHY DON'T YOU SAY THE WORDS ISLAMIC TERROISM/EXTREMISM?? directed at Obama. She also made this point on Fox News after the Charlie Hebdo shootings.

I have yet to hear her come out against the domestic terrorism runaway train in this country. There is no difference between Muslim terror and the Trump fan mailing bombs to networks. None. She should be front and center.

She is buds with Steve Bannon. Also with Narendra Modi. Muslims are a pet peeve to say the least, of both.

Tulsi isn't Trump. Or even Dan Lipinski. But her rhetoric about Islam wouldn’t be out of place on a Republican debate stage. Her anti-interventionism is shot through with a pernicious nationalism. Her support for Modi legitimizes a leader with a record of enabling anti-Muslim brutality. She checks many of the paleoconcervative boxes and I'm not picking up what she is putting down.
 

Jaguar

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If Tulsi wants to make the cut, she needs to get out of the middle/end of the pack somehow.

At her current rate, she is going nowhere. She is not standing out in a significant way enough to compete in the main clump of 6-7 people.


She did exactly what I wanted her to do. I just wish she would have waited until I swallowed my food before planting an axe in Kamala's skull. You'd think Gabbard stole my notebook and took it to the debate. She may not wind up in the end zone, but she's great at running interference. The others were too chicken to bring up Kamala's record as a prosecutor and that record needs to be hammered home, again and again and again. But if Gabbard doesn't make it to the next debate, the public may very well forget about it. And that is something I find concerning.
 

ceecee

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She did exactly what I wanted her to do. I just wish she would have waited until I swallowed my food before planting an axe in Kamala's skull. You'd think Gabbard stole my notebook and took it to the debate. She may not wind up in the end zone, but she's great at running interference. The others were too chicken to bring up Kamala's record as a prosecutor and that record needs to be hammered home, again and again and again. But if Gabbard doesn't make it to the next debate, the public may very well forget about it. And that is something I find concerning.

Twitter won't let anyone forget Kamala Harris is a Cop, lol.
 

Julius_Van_Der_Beak

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Let's cover what paleoconservtism is. Paleoonservationism is a conservative political philosophy which stresses traditionalism, limited government, Christian ethics, regionalism and nationalism.

She worked for her father's anti-gay activist campaigns in Hawaii.

Opposing reproductive rights

She appears to be anti-war. Even with the empathy she has for active duty and veterans - nothing wrong with that and as a veteran herself but I don't buy the anti-war outlook. She seems to have no real grasp of what the US is inflicting on other nations. At all. It's nationalism in antiwar garb, reinforcing instead of undercutting the toxic rhetoric that treats foreigners as less deserving of dignity than Americans. No. We have had enough of that shit period. She is also pro-drone, Obama gave us enough of this.

Nothing I have ever seen or read leads me to believe she really grasps the impact of US foreign policy as a catalyst for anti-American sentiment in the Middle East. According to her the cause of terrorism is Islam. You may remember she was a loud voice in the WHY DON'T YOU SAY THE WORDS ISLAMIC TERROISM/EXTREMISM?? directed at Obama. She also made this point on Fox News after the Charlie Hebdo shootings.

I have yet to hear her come out against the domestic terrorism runaway train in this country. There is no difference between Muslim terror and the Trump fan mailing bombs to networks. None. She should be front and center.

She is buds with Steve Bannon. Also with Narendra Modi. Muslims are a pet peeve to say the least, of both.

Tulsi isn't Trump. Or even Dan Lipinski. But her rhetoric about Islam wouldn’t be out of place on a Republican debate stage. Her anti-interventionism is shot through with a pernicious nationalism. Her support for Modi legitimizes a leader with a record of enabling anti-Muslim brutality. She checks many of the paleoconcervative boxes and I'm not picking up what she is putting down.

Ok, regarding AIPAC, it's not a good organization, and Sheldon Adelson in particular is a mummified gasbag. I'm certainly fine with people trashing it but Omar could have used better language. Sorry, but with politics, that kind of thing matters, and approaching the topic differently would have helped her case, in addition to help with cushioning her from a backlash (although probably not preventing it).

As for Tulsi, I don't think she's a paleoconservative, although there are some things in her record I'm not on board with. I'll address this in my conclusion.

Some positives:

  1. She supports net-neutrality (not paleoconservative, free market sould run amok according to them) , and stopped accepting corporate campagin donations.
  2. She supported Bernie in 2016 (a paleoconservative would not do this, and supported Keith Ellison (a Muslim) for DNC chair. I'm not convinced that her meeting with Modi is damning when so many other people have done so, although it is fair to compare to Modi to Netanyahu, and condemn both.
  3. I believe she has integrity and that her change in positions over time don't come from a place of opportunism (it's not like her foreign policy positions helps her with the media). It also helps that she has a millitary background, which will give her credibility in selling her ideas. This is important, because they will (and have) come after her for this.
  4. A bonus : Also, while this is a bit cynical, the fact that she's a woman of color (she's Samoan) will be helpful if she makes it to the big leagues. They can't lob attacks about her being a racist old white man like they did with Bernie. They may, however, call her antisemitic because she has criticized Israel in the past.


I don't remember the "Radical Islamic Terrorism" thing from her, and while it's a very dumb point to harp on, Obama's response to Charlie Hebdo was really lame and wishy-washy, and really opened him up to bullshit like that. Very disappointing that a bunch of people who spent more than a decade going on and on at any opportunity about how all religions are totally ridiculous and irrational suddenly decided Islam deserved special treatment and needed to be respected because otherwise its punching down , apparently just because the president said so. I dare say this was what killed New Atheism (and I don't necessarily regard this as a bad thing), more than arguments about Gamergate.

Here's the thing....

I have this framework or idea of what's not right and what needs fixing (and you have something like that as well). That's valuable and useful. But it's not just a matter of finding a politician who crosses all the boxes on a checklist generated by a framework who actually gets elected. Politicians respond to money. They also respond to people (this even matters in authoritarian regimes). Thing is, lots of people are apathetic and disinvested, for understandable reasons. Others just believe things that are incoherent.

I think not enough people have been exposed to good ideas, and too many people have been exposed to shitty ideas. So one thing that would help would be to expose people to as many good ideas as is possible. If Gabbard gets more of a spotlight, this will happen. The outcome will be positive, just as Bernie's presence in the campaign was positive. If she can chip away at the myth of American exceptionalism supported by so many politicians on both sides, (we can avoid making mistakes of history because we're the freedomest country evar! ), that's good. It's incredibly empowering to hear someone else voice your private doubts so you don't feel like a voice in the wilderness. It drives political engagement, and that is to be encouraged.

More importantly, on balance, I think she's one of the good guys, for that reason. she has my vote if she stays in it.
 

SearchingforPeace

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Here Are The Democratic Presidential Candidates With The Most Donations From Billionaires

Here is a quick summary:

#1 Pete Buttigieg: 23 billionaire donors
#2 Cory Booker: 18 billionaire donors
#3 Kamala Harris: 17 billionaire donors
#4 Michael Bennet: 15 billionaire donors
#5 Joe Biden: 13 billionaire donors
#6 John Hickenlooper: 11 billionaire donors
#7 Beto O’Rourke: 9 billionaire donors
#8 Amy Klobuchar: 8 billionaire donors
#9 Jay Inslee: 5 billionaire donors
#10 Kirsten Gillibrand: 4 billionaire donors
#11 John Delaney: 3 billionaire donors
#12 Elizabeth Warren and Steve Bullock: 2 billionaire donors each
#13 Tulsi Gabbard, Andrew Yang, and Marianne Williamson: 1 billionaire donor each
#14 Bernie Sanders, Julian Castro, Bill De Blasio, and Tim Ryan: 0 billionaire donors
 

Doctor Cringelord

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Let's cover what paleoconservtism is. Paleoonservationism is a conservative political philosophy which stresses traditionalism, limited government, Christian ethics, regionalism and nationalism.

She worked for her father's anti-gay activist campaigns in Hawaii.

Opposing reproductive rights

She appears to be anti-war. Even with the empathy she has for active duty and veterans - nothing wrong with that and as a veteran herself but I don't buy the anti-war outlook. She seems to have no real grasp of what the US is inflicting on other nations. At all. It's nationalism in antiwar garb, reinforcing instead of undercutting the toxic rhetoric that treats foreigners as less deserving of dignity than Americans. No. We have had enough of that shit period. She is also pro-drone, Obama gave us enough of this.

Nothing I have ever seen or read leads me to believe she really grasps the impact of US foreign policy as a catalyst for anti-American sentiment in the Middle East. According to her the cause of terrorism is Islam. You may remember she was a loud voice in the WHY DON'T YOU SAY THE WORDS ISLAMIC TERROISM/EXTREMISM?? directed at Obama. She also made this point on Fox News after the Charlie Hebdo shootings.

I have yet to hear her come out against the domestic terrorism runaway train in this country. There is no difference between Muslim terror and the Trump fan mailing bombs to networks. None. She should be front and center.

She is buds with Steve Bannon. Also with Narendra Modi. Muslims are a pet peeve to say the least, of both.

Tulsi isn't Trump. Or even Dan Lipinski. But her rhetoric about Islam wouldn’t be out of place on a Republican debate stage. Her anti-interventionism is shot through with a pernicious nationalism. Her support for Modi legitimizes a leader with a record of enabling anti-Muslim brutality. She checks many of the paleoconcervative boxes and I'm not picking up what she is putting down.

I think her current economic/social platforms and her US congressional record negate the paleocon label, but fair enough.

She changed tides on the issue of homosexuality years ago and has been apologizing ever since. Maybe she's insincere or doing this to remain relevant, but the same could be said about so many politicians, and unless she starts actively campaigning and voting against LGBTQ marriage rights, I'm willing to allow her a pass on this one. Especially considering her age and the influence of her upbringing around the time she was most vocal in her activism against LGBTQ rights.

If we "cancel" every person who's ever said or done something questionable or reprehensible in the past, we'd end up cancelling just about everyone on the planet, even the bloody Dalai Lama.
 

Doctor Cringelord

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I think the DNC should institute a rule that they only do townhalls in such crowded primary fields. Debates this large are circuses and I don't even watch them when there's that many candidates because there's no room for a nuanced back-and-forth, just a bunch of people tossed into thunderdome and all trying to shout out the most memorable 15 second soundbyte. Debates should really include no more than 4 candidates at a time. For the townhalls, I wouldn't have a polling minimum (if I did it would be very low, like .5 %) but maybe a fund raising minimum.

The lower polling candidates need to up their game and go for less conventional appearances, i.e. on Fox News. Sure, they'd be appearing on a GOP echo chamber, but maybe some of them would begin to get through to some of those fox viewers. I don't think Fox viewers realize how skewed and biased that network is, so when they actually see and hear a candidate speaking directly to them, rather than hearing Tucker Carlson's version, they might realize the dems aren't quite the loonies they've been led to believe they are.
 

ceecee

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I think her current economic/social platforms and her US congressional record negate the paleocon label, but fair enough.

She changed tides on the issue of homosexuality years ago and has been apologizing ever since. Maybe she's insincere or doing this to remain relevant, but the same could be said about so many politicians, and unless she starts actively campaigning and voting against LGBTQ marriage rights, I'm willing to allow her a pass on this one. Especially considering her age and the influence of her upbringing around the time she was most vocal in her activism against LGBTQ rights.

If we "cancel" every person who's ever said or done something questionable or reprehensible in the past, we'd end up cancelling just about everyone on the planet, even the bloody Dalai Lama.

I'm not "canceling" her. In fact I think that's a generally stupid thing to do in most cases. I'm simply saying why I wouldn't vote for her and why I feel she is a paleocon, since you inquired. I'm not interested in anything/anyone that could be considered Republican-lite. If I was I would vote for them.

I do think people can change and improve their views and outlook on others however, I am not convinced Tulsi actually has. I believe she is simply not vocalizing her beliefs any longer.
 

Doctor Cringelord

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I'm not "canceling" her. In fact I think that's a generally stupid thing to do in most cases. I'm simply saying why I wouldn't vote for her and why I feel she is a paleocon, since you inquired. I'm not interested in anything/anyone that could be considered Republican-lite. If I was I would vote for them.

I do think people can change and improve their views and outlook on others however, I am not convinced Tulsi actually has. I believe she is simply not vocalizing her beliefs any longer.

Sorry, I didn't mean to suggest you are cancelling her, though it seems to be the case a lot of other people have been trying to cancel her since the second she announced she was running, simply for being a heterodox democrat. It was shitty when the republicans started labelling their moderates or anyone who didn't fit the conservative mold as RINOs, so it's alarming to see something similar happening to democrats with more frequency in recent years.


Regarding her beliefs, I don't care if she's the most homophobic person in the world as long as she isn't pushing that on others and allowing it to inform her legislative work. I trust she will try to uphold their civil liberties and will not attempt to undo gay marriage if elected. Although ultimately that's going to probably be the Supreme court's realm. I'd be curious the type of judges she'd appoint.

Agree to disagree, not trying to make you change your mind on Tulsi.
 

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It's important to prepare for the worst case scenario, which is that Biden (a true Republican-lite candidate) wins the nomination. What do you think will the American people be subjected to in that time between then and when he probably loses the general election?

Here are a few of my guesses:

  1. We need to return to normalcy. Normalcy, in this case, meant wages staying stagnant (not that Trump has done anything to help the situation), but hey, profits on Wall Street skyrocketed, so everything is fine... this has been the case for all of my adult life by the way in "good" economic times... and the commentators act mystified about why productivity and profits have grown but wages haven't.
  2. We need a robust foreign policy and be a world leader again, Trump has weakened all of us by not taking an active role on the world stage.
  3. Free trade is an undeniable good that should never be questioned.
  4. Donald Trump has tarnished the institution of the Presidency. We need someone who will value norms.

I think Sanders is very good at addressing bad idea 1 and 3. Gabbard is good at addressing bad idea 2. Both are good at addressing bad idea 4, because the candidates themselves are represent concepts outside the treasured "norms." (If the norms were so great and valuable, Trump wouldn't have become President in the first place. The electoral college is a "norm.")

It's important that Sanders and Gabbard (and Marianne, and maybe Yang) get as much airtime as possible, because this helps create counters to all of the crap Biden will be spewing if he wins the nomination. People need to realize that alternatives to shit exist.
 
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