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lastrailway

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Since N/S has to do with the way you take input from the world and T/F with the way you process the information, then I would guess that the IQ would relate with a combination of the two functions. Maybe STs can score higher, due to the various memory/spacial/visual questions
But if I should relate only one function, then I would say Ts might score higher in those tests.
 

The Ü™

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P/J probably has the highest correlation with keeping a job.

I'd also imagine that the likelihood of keeping a job may even correlate stronger to SJ types, since the nature of S is less psychologically changeable and more oriented toward getting things done.

On the other hand, J has a correlation with a preference for routine and habits, coupled with N, with its preference for zoning out and "being in a world of its own," can also have drastic undesirable consequences in the work environment -- namely having their heads in the clouds (or minds in the gutter). I'd say that INxJ could display a higher dependency upon habit than SJs. (Believe me, this has gotten me in trouble with jobs I'd held.)
 

The Ü™

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Does High Openness on the FFM (N on MBTI) have any correlation to sociopathic behavior?

After all, sociopaths are said to have high IQs.
 

Mempy

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I am not sure. There were some people on INFP Global who seemed to have an easier time with math and seemed to have college majors or work in math type fields. It did not seem to be the majority but it was there.

Yes, there are definitely members at INFPg who excell at math, but I myself have these sentiments:

Math =
violent38.gif

I might point out that there are INTPs I know who claim to be awful at math, so perhaps there are math simpletons and math geniuses among every type.
 

ygolo

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My friend recently took a test with his gifted program, and said almost everyone in it was N. He is a strong N. His remarks didn't seem to indicate that any other trait had a strong correlation with being in the gifted program.

At the same time, IQ is pretty worthless. Of the people I know, one of the ones with the highest IQ can't support himself. P/J probably has the highest correlation with keeping a job.

I was in a gifted program as a kid. I'm not sure what the IQ cut-off was, but I would guess a similar trend back then.

I sometimes wonder if the definition of typen or IQ, is changed on an ad-hoc basis, to make the claims about them continue to be true.

I suspect IQ suffers greately form ad hoc hypothesis, in the form of modification of IQ questions to "update for the times"(when it is simply a means, perhaps unwittingly, to continue getting the corellations that the IQ community wants to calim).
 

The Ü™

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Yes, there are definitely members at INFPg who excell at math, but I myself have these sentiments:



I might point out that there are INTPs I know who claim to be awful at math, so perhaps there are math simpletons and math geniuses among every type.

I don't think math is an Intuitive pursuit at all. Math isn't really abstract -- at least not in the Intuitive sense. Contrarily, it's detail-oriented factual logic and highly systematic. Math is problem solving concerned with finding a definite answer -- very ISTP- or ISTJ-ish if you ask me.

The INTP and INTJ would be more comfortable with flawed logic, because N is open to fanciful rather than systematic thinking. Hence, contrary to popular belief, the INTP and INTJ are not nitpicking types.

Let's review that the N isn't about intelligence, it's about creative thinking. Math is quite the opposite way of thinking.
 

ptgatsby

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When determining an IQ, do they also factor interests relative to age level into the equation? As in would a child with more intellectual or esoteric interests more likely have a higher IQ? If not, then why else would a clinician be overseeing the test-taking process?

No, except the distribution can change with children... normally there are seperate tests because children can't cope with the more advanced tests at the practical level. As such, most tests are age-limited and validated, often from 18-50 or so, though the more recent ones/validated ones like KAIT (something like 10-80) and WAIS (which has different tests validated for their own age group - so data integrity is only assumed within each test) are pretty open.

A clinician oversees IQ tests for reliability and because of the nature of the tests. Same reason MBTI isn't taken and just scored, but is done through a clinician of sorts.

Does High Openness on the FFM (N on MBTI) have any correlation to sociopathic behavior?

Nothing in particular that would be sociopathic, if you mean either a lack of emotion or associating the wrong emotion to events. They tend to be associated with everything except openness (the lack of empathy/agreeableness/T-ness being the core one here).

So, high IQ and N don't correlate to the issues directly, but rather are a sub-factor to how the other trait is handled. That is, you don't associate low-end sociopaths, of which there are plenty (I think it's either 1% or 3% of the population... but faily substantial), with openness while the more dramatic ones are high IQ and adaptable.



Since N/S has to do with the way you take input from the world and T/F with the way you process the information, then I would guess that the IQ would relate with a combination of the two functions. Maybe STs can score higher, due to the various memory/spacial/visual questions
But if I should relate only one function, then I would say Ts might score higher in those tests.

In general, T has no significant correlation to IQ... N has a very significant correlation.

It is important to note that it is only one sub-trait that is at all significant in this discussion - "openness to ideas". N includes it indirectly, but has a very different distribution of N/S, making the pool smaller, thus seemingly higher, while the FFM trait makes it easier to measure that one factor in general, showing that the other factors are not significant at all.

As I've said before, I think IQ should be ripped from N and Openness and put into it's own section - I think it is too broad to be captured as only one sub-trait. Also, these can be tested for rather than self-selected, which is significantly different than the other factors (right now).
 

The Ü™

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Nothing in particular that would be sociopathic, if you mean either a lack of emotion or associating the wrong emotion to events. They tend to be associated with everything except openness (the lack of empathy/agreeableness/T-ness being the core one here).

Actually, I was thinking more in terms of radical behavior; rooting for the underdog and so forth. In a way, criminals tend to be dissatisfied with things as they are and so are willing to make changes. And so I figured, in that way, there is some sort of correlation between that and Openness.
 

ptgatsby

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Actually, I was thinking more in terms of radical behavior; rooting for the underdog and so forth. In a way, criminals tend to be dissatisfied with things as they are and so are willing to make changes. And so I figured, in that way, there is some sort of correlation between that and Openness.

Well... maybe a sub-set of criminals. In general, most high-IQ people are not criminals, hence not Ns. Very little crime is from the need to change the system, or even the willingness to change the system. Most incentives for crime come either from deviancy (often fitting in nowhere else/being able to function at the level of expectation they have for themselves) or self service (incentive greater than risk).
 

The Ü™

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Well... maybe a sub-set of criminals. In general, most high-IQ people are not criminals, hence not Ns.

I assume that serial killers are more likely N, because most are motivated by fantasies.
 

The_Liquid_Laser

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I don't think math is an Intuitive pursuit at all. Math isn't really abstract -- at least not in the Intuitive sense. Contrarily, it's detail-oriented factual logic and highly systematic. Math is problem solving concerned with finding a definite answer -- very ISTP- or ISTJ-ish if you ask me.

The INTP and INTJ would be more comfortable with flawed logic, because N is open to fanciful rather than systematic thinking. Hence, contrary to popular belief, the INTP and INTJ are not nitpicking types.

Let's review that the N isn't about intelligence, it's about creative thinking. Math is quite the opposite way of thinking.

As far as MBTI the most important trait for doing math is having T. But even then you have to have some aptitude for it also. On the other hand I think the second most important trait for doing math is N. I wouldn't doubt that there are a few NF's that have developed some good math skills, but without the T I doubt that they could explain their reasoning as clearly as a thinker. N is very useful for problem solving though. It's quite possible to be able to solve a problem without giving a clear explanation for how you arrived at your answer.
 

ygolo

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Well... maybe a sub-set of criminals. In general, most high-IQ people are not criminals, hence not Ns.

Though the statement as read seems to be something like:
High IQ implies Not Criminals, therfore High IQ implies not Ns. ??

I think it was meant to say:
High IQ implies Not Criminals, N implies High IQ (from prior post), therfore N implies not criminal.


My non-sequitur alarm went off at this statement. Uberfuhrer may still be right.

The following argument is valid:

Premise 1:A person with high IQ will not be a criminal.
Premise 2:An iNtuitive person will have high IQ.
Conclusion:An iNtuitive person will not be a criminal.

The following argument is not sound:

Premise 1a:A person with high IQ will likely not be a criminal.
Premise 2a:An iNtuitive person will likely have high IQ.
non-sequitur:An iNtuitive person will likely not be a criminal.

You need to bring in some more data/premises.

Consider the follwing hypothetical situation.
10% of the people have high IQ, are not criminals and are not iNtuitives.
5% of the poeple have high IQ, are cirminals and are iNtuitives.
70% of the people do not have High IQs, are not criminals, and are not iNtuitives.
15% of the people do not have high IQs, are criminals, and not iNtuitives

Here premises 1a, and premise 2a, hold, but the non-sequitur clearly does not.
 

The Ü™

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N is very useful for problem solving though. It's quite possible to be able to solve a problem without giving a clear explanation for how you arrived at your answer.

Yeah, but the S would more likely use math to figure out the answer, while the N will use a hunch. I think actual science is an ST field, while pseudo-science is NT, since pseudo-science is a combination of speculation and systems (as opposed to people) orientation.
 

The_Liquid_Laser

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Yeah, but the S would more likely use math to figure out the answer, while the N will use a hunch. (I think science is a largely ST field.)

Both the T and the N approach are using math. Math is the art of solving problems. It highly relies on using logic, which favors a T approach, but the N approach is still valid. Both ways are using math.

However without a well developed Ti or Te the ability to explain one's reasoning is quite limited.
 

ptgatsby

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I assume that serial killers are more likely N, because most are motivated by fantasies.

I think you are probably right for certain groupings of serial killers... but I don't know that much about criminology. I know that openness plays a part in narcisstic behaviour to a moderate amount, and that narcissism is one of 3 (4?) traits that serial killers can have...

Though the statement as read seems to be something like:
High IQ implies Not Criminals, therefore High IQ implies not Ns. ??

Yes, you are correct - I wasn't saying that Ns are not criminals, only that they are under-represented - because they have higher IQs and lower IQs are a direct influence on crime. I was connecting too many ideas in too many short sentences. I would spend the time to argue this all out, but the short of it is that criminals are normally Ss, especially repeats and have low IQs (those do go together in this case, independent and together).

In any case, it is the low IQ that causes criminality (I think it comes from a lack of forsight and inability to perform in society at high enough material level, etc), not the S/N divide. This is different than the J/P divide which is very correlated to deviant behaviour (and often criminal). (C- and N+ being the major criminal factors, using FFM).

Their may be an exception for narcissistic serial killers and openness - I wouldn't be surprised - which would also imply that narcissistic serial killers have high IQs (rather unlike serial gang bangers, for example, which are also serial killers.) The source of motivation is simply different.
 

Ghost of the dead horse

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from what i've seen so far, the SJs tend to do better on IQ tests if and only if they've studied and memorized the subject matter rigorously ahead of time ..
I consider studying IQ tests is a misnomer or a misunderstanding.. some tests that indicate and correlate strongly with IQ can be studied, but without almost any effect to real IQ at all: say for example SAT. IQ really has only 2% to do with knowledge level in any measures. The most psychometrically valid actually completely eradicate the need for prior knowledge, hence their scores cannot be improved by remembering anything.

There are exceptions to these actual and theoretical claims.

As a math expert I find it easy to do "tests" on number series quickly, such as testing if a number series includes a rule to two consecutive numbers or such. Knowledge of widely used number series helps to make that judgement faster.
 

Ghost of the dead horse

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Yeah, but the S would more likely use math to figure out the answer, while the N will use a hunch. I think actual science is an ST field, while pseudo-science is NT, since pseudo-science is a combination of speculation and systems (as opposed to people) orientation.
Sounds like a bit nonsense to me.. I am strong N and have a habit of instantly evaluating statements with strictly factual basis according to established scientific procedures, and I dont consider that as deviating from my N tendencies. I am not into pseudosciences at all, rather I agree with views of Robert T. Carroll, as in The Skeptic's Dictionary.

I consider using N to draw from a variety of possiblities that might "match" in a given situation, and I improve upon my initial judgements with T type thinking. I consider N to greatly help in noticing things that might be useful in a given situation, even when such connections might never have been taught to me. I think that S would use some kind of denial mechanism more easily in unfamiliar territory, limiting the choice of theories that they could find and prove right.
 

Ghost of the dead horse

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Both the T and the N approach are using math. Math is the art of solving problems. It highly relies on using logic, which favors a T approach, but the N approach is still valid. Both ways are using math.

However without a well developed Ti or Te the ability to explain one's reasoning is quite limited.
I agree with you to great extent. "Science" does not define how to make a theory, assumption or a hypothesis, with the exception in the most well-defined, narrowed-down details. Strict adherence to validated procedures is of course needed to maintain validity of the experiments as well as the theories. It is easier to notice deviance from parameters with S-type thinking, when the expected value is known already. With all the fact-checking and double-checking, and N person is capable to do that job too.

N is instead greatly useful to form new hyphothesis and to work in an uncharted territory. I wouldn't say that N is required, but it helps. S (with recalling details exactly) is required, but science is not about using details in the way they have always been used, but in an innovative way. Well, I would say that a S person could learn the "innovative" way as the regular way and do good science. SP are innovative in another sense, but do they choose scientific careers so often?

Both N and S type of scientist need to study existing publications too to find where the state of research is going and what would need to be studied next.

Edison's close associate commented how he refused to do any theoretical work, making him to perform tests and build models that would have easily and immediately been noticed as unworkable, given the slighest understanding of principles behind the test procedure. He , and suspect something along the lines of 40% too much work being done with the purely empiristic brute force method.

I would say that N combined with T is more adept in foreseeing the consequences of actions in an uncharted territory, where as S with T is more so in what is already known. Doing science requires a skillfull combination of both, no matter where a person's preferences are in.
 

lastrailway

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...A clinician oversees IQ tests for reliability and because of the nature of the tests. Same reason MBTI isn't taken and just scored, but is done through a clinician of sorts...

....In general, T has no significant correlation to IQ... N has a very significant correlation.

It is important to note that it is only one sub-trait that is at all significant in this discussion - "openness to ideas". N includes it indirectly, but has a very different distribution of N/S, making the pool smaller, thus seemingly higher, while the FFM trait makes it easier to measure that one factor in general, showing that the other factors are not significant at all...

Do you know how exactly is evaluated a "normal" IQ test? By "normal" meaning not the online IQ tests one can take for free and have them automatically scored.

What I do not understand is how an IQ test is related with openess to ideas. If I recall well it mesures abilities like memory, spacial and visual sense, etc. Aren't those abilities typically related with Ss?
As for the T I said before, thinking about it better, you are probably right, because the T/F axis does not examine the ability to think or feel, but the preference on a more thinking or more impulsive way of reacting to external stimulis. So it doesn't have to be related with either IQ or intelligence

As far as MBTI the most important trait for doing math is having T. But even then you have to have some aptitude for it also. On the other hand I think the second most important trait for doing math is N. I wouldn't doubt that there are a few NF's that have developed some good math skills, but without the T I doubt that they could explain their reasoning as clearly as a thinker. N is very useful for problem solving though. It's quite possible to be able to solve a problem without giving a clear explanation for how you arrived at your answer.

Why T and N are important traits for doing math? Math is all about learn a set of pre-existing systems and apply them correctly. Math, just as logic, are ways of though that are develloped sigles ago

I agree with you to great extent. "Science" does not define how to make a theory, assumption or a hypothesis, with the exception in the most well-defined, narrowed-down details. Strict adherence to validated procedures is of course needed to maintain validity of the experiments as well as the theories. It is easier to notice deviance from parameters with S-type thinking, when the expected value is known already. With all the fact-checking and double-checking, and N person is capable to do that job too.

N is instead greatly useful to form new hyphothesis and to work in an uncharted territory. I wouldn't say that N is required, but it helps. S (with recalling details exactly) is required, but science is not about using details in the way they have always been used, but in an innovative way. Well, I would say that a S person could learn the "innovative" way as the regular way and do good science. SP are innovative in another sense, but do they choose scientific careers so often?

Both N and S type of scientist need to study existing publications too to find where the state of research is going and what would need to be studied next...

I generally agree with you, though even the new hypothesis usually is hardly as innovative as one would expect. Science, with all the specialisation of today is roughly working in some predefined ways. I believe that the N or S preference might be more important when you actually have to evaluate the results/data than when you form the new hypothesis. That said, I am referring mostly to applied sciences than to abstact
 
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