I am NOT direct when I want someone's love… I really wish I were. But that's BECAUSE I want to be extraordinary… I want him to be on his knees for me; that is more important than having him RIGHT NOW. I want him to see me as something extraordinary, I want to win the "who cares about who less" competition, I want to have power..
Hm....I can relate to this also... Not sure about "who cares less" competition, but I have some 2ish pride about not letting on my own desires. I require someone to come to me.... I don't relate to being competitive like 4 sx types are supposed to be. If I were to find myself in direct competition with someone, I think I go the sp-dom masochistic route & just step aside. It's partly because I feel ABOVE competing. Like I shouldn't have to. If someone can't see how "extraordinary" I am, then I don't want them. They deserve the ordinary, pathetic person vying after them. Yes, it's all pretty gross when you examine it up close....
Has a 4-ish feel. In particular, the coping strategies having to longing and a desire to intensely connect with another has a very 4-ish feel to it. So, when you combine Sx with a type 5, you get a more 4-ish feel than the other 5 instinctual subtypes.
Chestnut writes:
Do the 4 Sp folks relate to the above description?
It's pretty dry & flat to me still. If I'm sp 4, I do appear more calm outwardly, but internally things are much more tempestuous. And it leaks over. Close family & friends will describe me as temperamental still, and as a child I also got called hostile & angry. A few have said there's something "violent" about me. Yet, casual associates may think I'm very composed & perhaps aloof or slightly moody at worst.
An ex-bf's mom (who I am still very close to) somewhat affectionately called me a "prima donna" once, so I guess I'm more obvious with the demanding sx side than I'd like to think (most 4s here, regardless of instinctual stacking, seem to think they suffer in silence; perhaps our self-perception is very off there).
I think sx is not just longing to connect... it's almost like a toddler temper tantrum that reality hasn't given you the romance you desire. It's much more of an extreme frustration and it bubbles over in the demeanor of someone. I think 5s are somehow more.... complacent? Like they've resigned themselves a bit.
Even if 4s say they've resigned themselves, they do so in a dramatic, angry way, and they often never stop mentioning it. It's because they really aren't contented with things as-is.
Given all that, I still find myself a little dissatisfied with the 4 Sp description, because while I relate to a fair amount of it (although less than 5 Sx), it isn't clear to me how it arises inevitably from the combination of 4 and Sp (especially without a 5 wing being involved). It seems like the self-care/comfort/warm side of Sp is generally missing, leaving only the 5-ish parts (self-denial/storing up). I can see it being arguable that 4s don't feel like they deserve comfort and self-care, but why should the Sp instinct only distort in one direction for 4 Sp? Isn't it equally arguable that a 4 Sp should over focus on comfort and aesthetics? Or tend towards comfort eating? Or reflect an Sp fixation is other ways?
I relate to the indulgent aspect of sp, but I don't know if I'd call it "self-care". When it's the first instinct, it's supposed to be distorted. It's not all warm & cozy.... Other authors describe sp 4s as being recklessly indulgent, and I DO think this relates to the sp 4 not wanting to burden others & becoming masochistic. If you read the description, they are self-sabotaging & perhaps due to some indulgences (with spending money or eating/not eating as ways to self-soothe, justified as some consolation for missing out otherwise, perhaps). The denial aspect is not the indulgence, it's in asking others for what they are missing & longing for, when the so type may do so in a whiny way & the sx angrily.
I guess I find the descriptions complementary & not at all contradictory. Together, they provide a clearer picture.
Yes, if I look at myself outside of four (and at other non-Naranjo influenced books about four) I am without question a sx/sp. That's what's great about this book. She really drills in the fact that
all fours idealize romantic relationships and have relationship problems because of their push/pull and off/on. Four, by it's nature, is sexual instinct. So I think in that way a sp/sx four is going to seem sx/sp to other types, and sp/so will probably seem sp/sx. Sx doms, meanwhile are like the super-uber sx doms.
It's interesting because I've become really good friends with a sx/sp 4w5 and we have a lot in common, more than I've ever had with anyone else. We very much get each other. But if you look at us more closely, he really puts that sexual energy out there while I suppress it more. He's more a Baudelaire while I'm more a Van Gogh.
Yeah, the sx 4 sounds so extreme, and I'm just not. Like I said in another post, I imagine Johnny Depp trashing hotel rooms & Marlon Brando riding his motorcycle down his school's hallway, and I know I'm not that outward acting. It seems there's a great entitlement to sx 4s, and being sp-dom, I cringe to think of myself that way at all. There's the pride in suffering quietly, feeling no one knows the extent of it all.
I didn't transcribe that correctly. She said, "Interestingly, this subtype can also look like a type seven." In other words, Not all self pres fours will be like this but some will. That was the nail in the coffin for me, actually. I concluded my tritype had to be 471, if I were to play the tritype game (possibly 479, but that seemed unlikely). When she said it's a type that can look like seven and look like one- well, yes, that's me. Sometimes I'm reserved and aloof, sometimes I'm playful and goofy. (And yes, I also have the haughty sx thing going on, too.) I do feel like there is a lightness to me especially when it comes to my fiction writing. I have a tendency to go humorous, which has always frustrated me. I think it goes along with the not wanting to be seen as too difficult or too much of a complainer, as well as to protect myself. I pretty much never look sad and pitiful, like ever. Also, I'm adventurous and get a thrill from new experiences. I would put myself more as tenacious/reckless than just tenacious. That's another thing I really like about this description- how she talks about the tendency to work hard and then sabotage that work creating this endless loop of masochism. Totally me.
My demeanor is far from 7ish, so I can't say I am "light" at all. I'm sullen without appearing sad, somehow. People never are concerned with depression for me. I think I may look more irritated or something; "sour puss" is really the best way to describe it. A discontent that's more snobby/angry than pitiful.
But I like the kind of indulgences a 7 will pursue too, and sabotaging hard work is me as well. I can know what I need to do & just not be in the mood....and I 'll get right to the edge & then stress over pulling it off so as to pay the bills or whatever.
I relate a lot to 4 so/sp (?) Morrissey, who also uses a lot of humor but is known for being whiny. But I am not known for such whininess in person. It's always more of a hostility & arrogance ascribed to me, unfortunately. I think Morrissey is a great example of a 4 who is likely sx last, yet he is still OBSESSED with romantic relationships; and he has obvious hang-ups with his sexuality. I relate to that obsessive aspect & some of his self-deprecation, but I realize I don't vocalize it so much.
Sexual Four:
Inner motivation envy, manifests as competition. Don't feel consciously envious so much as competitive as a way of muting the pain associated with envy. If they can compete against someone they perceive as having more and win, then they feel better about themselves.
Believe it's good to be the best. Don't care much about image management or being liked. It's better to be superior. Actively strive to show they are the best.
Have an 'all or nothing' attitude when it comes to success. If success is not theirs, they are left with nothing. Generates feelings of hate.
Usually arrogant despite having underlying sense of inferiority. If painfully feel misunderstood will adopt an arrogant attitude as overcompensation. Can be very elitist. May refuse to feel indebted to anyone. Any criticism or reproach is seen as an affront or disqualification.
Refuse to suffer the pain brought about by envy. Reduce suffering by projecting the responsibility for meeting their needs onto others and minimizing others accomplishments in comparison with their own.
Make others suffer because they have been made to suffer, so they want compensation. May seek to hurt or punish others to repudiate or minimize own pain.
"Hurt people hurt people." Externalizing pain helps them ease their inner sense of inferiority. Refuse to suffer. Active insistence on their needs being validated and met. More shameless than shameful. Vocal about expressing needs. Rebel against shame connected to their desires.
Get mad when others don't meet their needs, but their demanding nature causes others to avoid or reject them, then get angry about being rejected.
More assertive and angrier than the other subtypes. Mad four vs sad social four. Expression of anger is their way of defending against painful feelings. When they unconsciously turn their pain into anger they don't have to feel their pain anymore.
Feel justified in blaming others as the source for their deprivation and frustration, which serves as a distraction from their own role in their suffering and a plea for help and understanding.
Can be the angriest personality among the enneagram types. May express envious anger as a way to establish or assert power when they feel inferior at a deeper level, which can be a way to manipulate situations to their advantage. Can be very impulsive. Want things immediately and have little tolerance for frustration.
The competition and hate expressed by this four represents a deeper need to project their sense of suffering and inadequacy outward. "I've got to get what I need to convince myself that my needs aren't shameful and to feel better about myself with respect to others." It's a compensation for and a defense against the hurt they feel underneath.
Like and need emotional intensity. Without intensity, everything can seem unbearably dull and boring. Can be very direct when want somebody's love, or can become "extraordinary"- make themselves seem special and attractive and superior in an effort to attract it. Tend to be more present and available in relationships because they don't deny or avoid many of the factors that can inhibit others relationally. However, at times it may prove difficult for them to maintain a loving attitude because they confuse sweetness and benevolence with being false or insincere.
Most likely to be confused with eight or sexual two. Have easier access to anger like eights, but differ from eights in the wider range of emotions they regularly feel. Fours will show anger more often because they feel misunderstood and envious while an eight often doesn't 'need' to get angry. Can also look like Sexual Twos because can be seductive and aggressive in relationships. Twos, however, are more oriented toward pleasing others.
None of these made me cry....
But I went through this to see how much I relate.... I still feel like the sp resonates the most, but not by a huge margin.
As I noted above, I was pegged temperamental, cantankerous, hostile, angry, etc, as a child, but only by those close to me. I was very well-behaved at school & always well-mannered & felt a lot of shame around peers, which led to me being extremely shy. I do remember being quite proud about being "odd". I liked weirdness & would sort of wear it as a badge of honor to be strange. Outwardly, I may have had a counter-shame, but it was not very "loud". I was frequently called "shameless" by my family though.
The stuff about being best is interesting, but I experienced it more as 1ish & not in a competitive way. I felt like I needed to be perfect, and would seethe if any correction was made towards me, because I'd feel misunderstood. I didn't experience "being the best" as a conscious desire. It was more like I knew I was the best in many academic & artistic areas, and I'd have the grades & awards to prove it.
I was quite arrogant about being smarter than my peers & felt I did not need to show up to class everyday since I did better than them anyway. I would be angry if someone else got a higher grade & I considered them "inferior". I had a contempt for over-achievers, because I felt I did well due to raw smarts & accomplished what they struggled to do with the flick of my wrist. And I certainly cared little if I was liked.... but I still cannot see myself as "competitive" in anyway that it's usually recognized. I think "elitist" fits better.
When I first learned enneagram, I blanched at envy being for 4s - I could not see it or admit to it, but now I see it. I see how much of everything I do/feel extends from a place of envy (a resentful longing). But I definitely suppressed it & see how angry it made me. I'm not so angry anymore, but I feel the shame more painfully that I'm aware of the envy.
But as a kid, I felt invalidated a lot & was ashamed to express any emotional needs. I hid feelings & was also called cold. And like I noted above, I would not compete (& still won't), but would rather purposely lose, just to have the "control". I feel like this has a masochistic flavor of the sp 4.
This description is so much more openly demanding than I see myself, in short. But there's stuff in it I find harder to admit than the sp description because I don't like to see myself that way.