greenfairy
philosopher wood nymph
- Joined
- May 25, 2012
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I think it's a lot more complicated than that.Hindu spirituality has given India the caste system.
I think it's a lot more complicated than that.Hindu spirituality has given India the caste system.
And the Christians in the middle ages tortured and killed anyone they didn't like on pretexts like witchcraft and heresy. Equal opportunity inhumanity.C'mon, the Ancient Romans killed the Christians in the most horrible ways for refusing to worship the Ancient Roman Gods.
Exactly what is an irreligious god?In my opinion extroverted feelers, and extroverts in general will be more likely to believe in a religious god.
STJs might be more likely to accept the standard indoctrination of childhood, while NTJs will be more likely to question it. Any NTs are likely to question. I suspect that questioning will lead more NTPs to agnosticism, out of that desire not to form conclusions until all the evidence is in, and the inherent impossibility of that when it comes to God. NTJs are more likely to form at least a working hypothesis, which they will use until contradicted by new evidence. This can lead us either to atheism, or to some alternate spirituality like Paganism.I can tell you there have been multiple polls taken at INTPC over the years. The results are a pretty consistent 70%+ non believers. I can't speak to INTJ trends in this regard. I would think they would be similar, but who knows. Their J-ness might make them more impressionable as youths and less prone to shucking off the standard religious indoctrination that N.A. children typically experience.
STJs might be more likely to accept the standard indoctrination of childhood, while NTJs will be more likely to question it. Any NTs are likely to question. I suspect that questioning will lead more NTPs to agnosticism, out of that desire not to form conclusions until all the evidence is in, and the inherent impossibility of that when it comes to God. NTJs are more likely to form at least a working hypothesis, which they will use until contradicted by new evidence. This can lead us either to atheism, or to some alternate spirituality like Paganism.
In my opinion extroverted feelers, and extroverts in general will be more likely to believe in a religious god.
So I take it then that you maintain the opposite of my statement, namely that "This cannot lead NTs either to atheism, or to some alternate spirituality like Paganism."? This makes no sense. I am pointing out in admittedly broad stereotypical strokes how the decision to reject one's childhood faith might play out differently for NTPs vs. NTJs. It says nothing about the many who don't reject that faith.Are you serious? That sounds like some sort of reflection of popular love of novelty and all things "alternative", to adopt paganism after abandoning Christianity because of doubts arising from criticial appraisal and questioning is ridiculous, Christianity is in many ways the more rational, scientific successor to the primitive and superstitious precursors described as paganism or paganistic.
Most of that crap is modern revivals for commercial purposes anyway. That's with all due respect for pagans, it'd be a bit like my deciding that popular angels books were true religion Christianity.
So I take it then that you maintain the opposite of my statement, namely that "This cannot lead NTs either to atheism, or to some alternate spirituality like Paganism."? This makes no sense. I am pointing out in admittedly broad stereotypical strokes how the decision to reject one's childhood faith might play out differently for NTPs vs. NTJs. It says nothing about the many who don't reject that faith.
The highlighted might have some validity with reference to certain manifestations of (pre)historical Paganism, but modern Paganism is quite different, and in many ways more rational and scientific than any form of Christianity. (A large part of why I am a Pagan, BTW.)
Ok, thanks for the insight about INTJs. I actually figured they would tend to share the INTP worldview on this topic.STJs might be more likely to accept the standard indoctrination of childhood, while NTJs will be more likely to question it. Any NTs are likely to question. I suspect that questioning will lead more NTPs to agnosticism, out of that desire not to form conclusions until all the evidence is in, and the inherent impossibility of that when it comes to God. NTJs are more likely to form at least a working hypothesis, which they will use until contradicted by new evidence. This can lead us either to atheism, or to some alternate spirituality like Paganism.
I think it's a lot more complicated than that.
The highlighted might have some validity with reference to certain manifestations of (pre)historical Paganism, but modern Paganism is quite different, and in many ways more rational and scientific than any form of Christianity. (A large part of why I am a Pagan, BTW.)
The last Pagan was Hypatia, the librarian of the Great Pagan Library of Alexandria, who discovered the Sun went round the Earth.
Modern Pagans have no connection with Hypatia or Ancient Pagan Greek philosophy, Pagan Greek mathematics, or Pagan Greek science, or Pagan Greek literature, or Pagan Greek art.
Modern Pagans are an embarrassment to those who love the last great Pagan, Hypatia, and Ancient Pagan Greek philosophy, mathematics, science, literature and art.
Modern Pagans are merely part of the New Age superstition, and are all a piece with homeopathy, astrology, alternative medicine and mbti.
Most "pagan Greek science" should rather be called "materialist Greek science". Democritus for instance, didn't believe in Gods at all. Just like Socrates, they were leaving superstition for the "common man".
Yes, quite so, my dear Blackmail, the Ancient Greeks were the first to recognise that the Gods were natural forces and so they gave birth to science.
Most Pagans, and I suspect also most historians, will see things otherwise. I suppose it all comes down to how one defines terms.The last Pagan was Hypatia, the librarian of the Great Pagan Library of Alexandria, who discovered the Earth went round the Sun.
Modern Pagans have no connection with Hypatia or Ancient Pagan Greek philosophy, Pagan Greek mathematics, or Pagan Greek science, or Pagan Greek literature, or Pagan Greek art.
Modern Pagans are an embarrassment to those who love the last great Pagan, Hypatia, and Ancient Pagan Greek philosophy, mathematics, science, literature and art.
Modern Pagans are merely part of the New Age superstition, and are all a piece with homeopathy, astrology, alternative medicine and mbti.
Don't worry - I can tell the difference between an insult and simple disagreement. I am curious, though, as to what you consider "mistaken" about modern Pagans. First, Paganism never totally died out, though it was certainly supplanted in many regions first by Judaism, then Christianity and eventually Islam. Hinduism, for instance, has long been the main religion of India, and is essentially that culture's version of Paganism. Same for the spiritual traditions of many indigenous people like the Native American cultures.I dont want to appear insulting to you but I do think that seeking to revive paganism after it has been a dead religion for so long is really mistaken.
My views on atheism are the same Francis Bacon's that a little philosophy or knowledge inclinth one to atheism but a lot does the opposite.
http://www.authorama.com/essays-of-francis-bacon-17.html
He is going into his investigation with a preconception. Far more than a hypothesis, it is what he wants to think. His arguments support this desire, not necessarily following the facts.I HAD rather believe all the fables in the Legend, and the Talmud, and the Alcoran, than that this universal frame is without a mind.
Most Pagans, and I suspect also most historians, will see things otherwise. I suppose it all comes down to how one defines terms.
Greek Paganism is only a small subset of the world's Pagan spiritual paths. It is the scientific and artistic aspects of Greek culture that were preserved in the way you describe. Any spiritual element was not. Even Judaism, the direct precursor of Christianity and the religion of Jesus himself, was not tolerated by the Christian establishment for centuries.The historical reality is that it was Christianity in the scriptoriums that keep Ancient Greek Paganism alive.
And it was out of the Christian scriptoriums that the Renaissance sprung.
And the Renaissance was the rebirth of Ancient Greek Pagan culture and learning.
And the Renaissance incorporated Ancient Greek Pagan culture into Christian culture.
So the heir of Pagan culture is Christianity, not the New Age.
Greek Paganism is only a small subset of the world's Pagan spiritual paths. It is the scientific and artistic aspects of Greek culture that were preserved in the way you describe. Any spiritual element was not. Even Judaism, the direct precursor of Christianity and the religion of Jesus himself, was not tolerated by the Christian establishment for centuries.
More like the philosophy of ancient Greek thinkers, some of whom happened to be Pagans (do we know whether any were even atheists???) We don't characterize people like Kant, Hegel, Rousseau, and Marx as "Christian philosophers". In fact, some were decidedly anti-Christian. A philosopy is not the same as theological doctrine.Please! It is Ancient Greek Pagan philosophy that forms the very basis of Western philosophy.
The spirit of Ancient Greek Pagan philosophy lives in every class of Philosophy 101.
It is New Age Paganism that is not taught in any University. And it is New Age Paganism that has betrayed the Ancient Paganism, and cheapened it, and relegated it to the status of astrology.
The last great Pagan, Hypatia, was an astronomer who rejected astrology as a superstition, just as she would reject the New Age Paganism as superstition.
STJs might be more likely to accept the standard indoctrination of childhood, while NTJs will be more likely to question it. Any NTs are likely to question. I suspect that questioning will lead more NTPs to agnosticism, out of that desire not to form conclusions until all the evidence is in, and the inherent impossibility of that when it comes to God. NTJs are more likely to form at least a working hypothesis, which they will use until contradicted by new evidence. This can lead us either to atheism, or to some alternate spirituality like Paganism.
More like the philosophy of ancient Greek thinkers, some of whom happened to be Pagans (do we know whether any were even atheists???) We don't characterize people like Kant, Hegel, Rousseau, and Marx as "Christian philosophers". In fact, some were decidedly anti-Christian. A philosopy is not the same as theological doctrine.