Convo between 55 yo ISTP and 34 yo ENFP. The ISTP and her INTJ husband run a small church and are my ex in-laws/beloved parental figures.
Background: A young couple with three small children was about to be evicted from their home. The husband had lost his job, they had no car and they electricity and gas had been turned off. Both were raised in foster care and are about 20. The wife shared the story with a church member who then spoke with the ISTP/INTJ and the decision was made to allow the couple and the children to live in rooms at the church adjacent to the sanctuary. The couple appears the be SFPs, with the wife likely an ISFP. They do need a great deal of guidance-they need someone to teach them financial planning and how to be independent. They could use guidance on other aspects of life as well.....
The convo with the ISTP that made me want to dig my own eyes out as I was trapped in a car with her on the drive to church:
ISTP: Her children are malnourished and run around like dogs.
ENFP in my head: Did you just call her children dogs? Really? She loves them and holds the baby all the time and breastfeeds it and the older kids are typical little rowdy toddler boys. Malnourished??? With three small kids, of course it makes sense to let the older two play while she cares for the baby.
ENFP-what I said: Ah, did their pediatrician say they are malnourished?
ISTP: Well all she does is feed them milk all day long and they wont eat meals. I have tried to feed them meals and they just wont eat them. She also hasn’t toilet trained any of them, but I don’t want her doing it at the church as it will ruin the carpet.
ENFP in my head: So are you like hovering over them trying to get them to eat? How many times did you do this, cause that would bother me? Milk is actually quite nutricious, and the kids seem very healthy. Also, her kids are under three-perhaps you forgot your grandsons were not potty trained until 3…
ENFP-what I said: Um, well milk is okay, I guess. Do they have cavaties or signs of deficiencies?
ISTP: The kids are sick all of the time because she is filthy and her children are filthy. They wear diapers all day long and she doesn’t dress them in clothes at all or even bother to clean. She was using the paper plates and napkins in the kitchen and left dirty dishes in the sink. The diaper bin was full and the whole church smelled bad.
ENFP-what I said: Um, yeah I remember you mentioning she did that back when she first moved in. Once you gave her a list of what needed to be done has she been better about cleaning?
ISTP: Well, yes, I guess, but it is only a matter of time before she slacks and let’s everything get messy again.
ENFP-in my head: She treats the area given as her personal living area. Why would you allow her to live there, then assume you could mandate in her personal living space, how she dresses herself or her children. Did you tell her certain kitchen items were off limits? Did you tell her that she needed to pick up the area? Once you gave her a list of things to do, she has been doing it, but that doesn’t change your complaint….why are you complaining about something she isn’t doing anymore?
ENFP-what I said: Well, all the kids have been pretty sick this year. The toddler and my boyfriend keep getting sick-a lot of colds and sore throats. That may be why her kids have been sick-plus they likely give each other bugs. Did you give her specific guidance on cleaning the area?
ISTP: Well it should be obvious! (God love presumptuous Fe)
ENFP-what I said: Um, well sometimes it can be helpful to be pretty direct and list things because different folks have different ideas of the way things are supposed to be. Especially with a foster care upbringing, it may be valuable to give clear direction about what you need.
ISTP: well she says she is a little slow and her kids, well, they don’t even talk yet. They just stare at you when you talk to them. All she does is hold the baby, so I am not surprised.
ENFP-in my head: Don’t you recall that your grandson was 2 and a half and barely talking? Don’t you notice that this grandson is 3 and half and wont speak to strangers? Whay do you treat a delay in speech as a failing on her part? Why haven’t you encouraged her to take the kid to a professional?
ENFP-what I said: well she seemed very introverted the time I meet her-(likely an ISFP)-perhaps the children are introverted or just shy around strangers. Have you considered helping her contact ECI to get the children screened if you think there is a reason for delayed speech.
ISTP: Well, then they would just take her kids away for being so filthy and being in diapers all the time. And an introverted person wouldn’t have gone around begging for help on main street to a stranger would they?
ENFP-what I said: She was begging for a place to live?
ISTP: Well no, but she just started talking to the other lady from our church and telling her a Sob story about her life, so what else could we do?
ENFP-what I said: Did she actually ask for money or help or a place to live? Did she seek anything from you?
ISTP: well, no but god spoke to us, so we had to offer her help.
ENFP-in my head: Fucking faceplant. Let me get this right….the women shares her story-likely because she felt like she was with someone who might be able to give her reflective feedback or maybe just listen…this is how Fi works. .instead you guys took it as an Fe call to action. She never asked you for help, yet you made her an offer of help. Once she (poor dumb little lamb) accepted your offer of help, you moved her into your church and began a daily barrage of all the things she is doing wrong as a mother, but never directly, only in this oblique passive aggressive manner. Note you never talk about the father but instead harp on this women. Instead of giving her direct feedback and guildlines, you look down upon her and insult her as being a horrible person daily and whisper behind her back but then smile nicely when you actually speak to her face.
ISTP: Anyways if she cared about her kids, she wouldn’t have cancelled her doctor’s appointments.
ENFP-what I said-She cancelled her dr’s appts? Why?
ISTP: well I don’t know, she just texted us and said she didn’t need any more rides, that she had canceled her doctor’s appointments. It makes our life so much easier as it really was difficult to have to change our schedule to give her a ride.
ENFP-in my head: Ah, I get this. You made her feel like shit everytime she asked for a ride, emo guilt tripped her, until she executed a shitty Te boundary. She was tired of your emo guilt trips so she found a way not to have to ask you for anything. A stupid move on her part, but I GET it.
ENFP-what I said: Perhaps she felt she was burdening you, and so tried to find a way not to ask so much of you by canceling the appointments. I can see myself doing that.
ISTP: Well if she really cared, she would be living there and would do a better job cleaning up.
ENFP-in my head-Didn’t we already talk about how she is doing a better job cleaning? Yet you keep mentioning this….
ENFP-What I said-Have you given them guidance on when they need to have a place of their own?
ISTP: well you’d think they would have done that by now. It’s obvious (god love presumptuous Fe)that they cant stay there.
ENFP: did you tell them when they need to leave?
ISTP: well finally last week I had to tell them directly that they needed to be out by the first.
ENFP-in my head-you gave them 1 week to find a new place?????? WTF????
ISTP: yeah they don’t even come into the church service anymore. No effort at all. They just sleep in until ten or so on Saturdays and Sundays watching television.
ENFP-in my head: really? I wonder why they don’t seek your idea of jesus anymore? So far you have done a really nice job exemplifying why I detest seeking help from others as so often it comes with these nasty judgments and pity combined with condemnation. So much for Christian giving if it isn’t in the spirit of giving but rather just meanness. And on Saturdays? What business is it of yours what time they sleep in till???
As we arrived at church the ISTP did the grossest thing. She takes my arm, pulls me close to her side and says “Well somebody said we may have hurt her feelings, given she cancelled her dr’s appts, but I think if her feelings were hurt, she would have showed it by moving out by now.†Then she snickered. I wanted to throw up. I had become part of the “in-crowdâ€
ISTP: Well even though they are moving out, I will still have to stop by their house because she obviously (god love presumptuous Fe) doesn’t know how to parent her children.
ENFP-in my head: YOU DETEST THIS WOMEN. YOU LOOK DOWN UPON HER WITH DISGUST. YOU TREAT HER BADLY AND CALL HER CHILDREN DOGS. WHY, THEN, DO YOU INSIST ON HELPING SOMEONE YOU FIND SO BENEATH YOU??????? IF YOU FIND HER SO FOUL, WHY NOT JUST LEAVE HER ALONE?
ENFP-what I said: Oh, that’s nice.