[MBTI General] Sometimes

[cafe]

Well, for one thing, we all get breasts.

Seriously?? Wow! I've always wanted those.

 

[Domino]

Seriously?? Wow! I've always wanted those.

Old age should be endless amusements galore! I can't wait to hike my pants up to my sternum!

 

[cascadeco]

Actually I don't think it could hurt to try to let someone know it will get easier/better when they're older. They might gain some consolation out of it, and if not, well, it was worth a shot!!

I feel like my mom said similar things now and then - more along the lines of, 'I didn't have a good time in high school either, you know'. I just have a foggy memory for details like that from so long ago!!

I DO recall her saying, 'Well, you're certainly unique' at one point; she didn't elaborate though!! So I was left feeling...weird. So I wouldn't suggest taking that tactic!! Stay more positive and assuring!!

 

[Economica]

I really didn't start this well, did I?

For that reason and also because I agree with you, PP, that my efforts are better directed elsewhere anyway, I hereby retract my accusation of inaccurate S/N generalizing. My apologies.

I confine myself to the statement that I disagree that Sensers are only 'temporarily affected' by a bad environment and cannot be 'broken'.

By bringing up the subject of strong N children needing a word of encouragement, you selected one type over the other to discuss and drew a comparison indirectly - why wouldn't you say the same things to a strong S child?

I didn't bring up the subject, but that said, I might certainly comfort an S child in the same way as I would an N. I deliberately used the term 'future-oriented', not N, to emphasize the important subtrait.

 

[Totenkindly]

Seriously?? Wow! I've always wanted those.

Sigh.

We can't generalize about S/N.

We can't generalize about getting breasts.

In what OTHER ways is the world going to be unpredictable?

I confine myself to the statement that I disagree that Sensers are only 'temporarily affected' by a bad environment and cannot be 'broken'.

Don't feel bad, Eco -- I actually agree with you on this one.

My experience has been the opposite of PP's. The S's I have known usually took things worse, because they had no escape valve. The N's I have known could mostly look beyond the pain, or use their N to "escape" the present moment and thus not endure as much of the grief.

In any case, I do not feel comfortable generalizing S/N based on my personal experience. I don't think we can judge whether an S or an N will be "broken more" by a bad environment.

At the very least, you're going to have to drill down further into archetypes or even the specific types (particular ones out of the 16) before you can even make some very BROAD generalizations...

...and even then, a lot of it still depends on the person in question, their particular past, their decisions in the face of their pain, and any other odd wrenches thrown into the works.

I can see, PP, your experience being more particular to some ENFJ types, PERHAPS... but not even close to being across the board for N's... especially NTJs.

 

[Domino]

My point wasn't that they CAN'T be broken, it's that I find Ss less likely than Ns to be snapped in half physically.

 

[Domino]

Sigh.

We can't generalize about S/N.

We can't generalize about getting breasts.

In what OTHER ways is the world going to be unpredictable?

But Jennifer, breasts are MADE to be generalized!! *sulks* *kicks a rock petulantly*

 

[PuddleRiver]

My 30s still was not as good as my 40s!

Same with me. 50's better still, that's got to be the only thing being 50 is good for.

 

[Grayscale]

If I could find someone 40+ who is like me, I'd kidnap them for questioning.

Ss are usually about results! In pain and suffering, you can't deny that the best outcome would be to get over it, moping serves no purpose.

I think it depends on capability... incapable Ss will be terrible if they can't help themselves since that's our saving grace... capable Ss can truck though quite a bit.

 

[white]

Pink is probably coming from the fact that low Ses can sometimes miss seeing reality as it is, and sometimes, seeing things as they are is the first step to being able to work things out, vs seeing it and ascribing meanings to it which may not be there, and the heart hungers for meanings which may not be, simply.

Why in a sense, I think Ses could have (emphasis could have) had an easier time growing up, and even in a bad environment, is simply because there're more of them around, so in a way, they've more people whom they could potentially find as friends, guardians, relations and mentors with, who'd understand them more immediately?

But regardless, a bad childhood of abuse can scar anyone deeply. It is ultimately a personal thing to work out, regardless of type, just that the point of release comes differently for each, isn't it.

I think the point of release comes, when the N starts to realise that escaping into your own world or internalising things have a limit before a serious dissociation from reality starts.

For an S, it is perhaps to realise that there are sometimes multi-layered ways of intepreting something, and to listen more to the inbetweens?

Breasts? *rofl* There was this funny chain email I saw recently, a spoof of that "I've learnt that" email. It went, "I've learnt that. . charm can only get you by for 15minutes. . after that, you'd better have big boobs or a big willy".

 

[Totenkindly]

My point wasn't that they CAN'T be broken, it's that I find Ss less likely than Ns to be snapped in half physically.

Well, my point was the opposite. The S's I have known got more neurotic and suffered psychosomatic conditions because of the stress... and were unable to articulate why they felt so horrible even though it seemed clear to others.

Aelan, can we generalize about willies?

 

[targobelle]

Sometimes I just wish I could let young people with a strong N know that things will be so much better for them when they are older.

Anyone else?

autumn

older.... um yes.... but really what is older, maybe mature is a better thought? what do you think?

 

[ptgatsby]

Well, my point was the opposite. The S's I have known got more neurotic and suffered psychosomatic conditions because of the stress... and were unable to articulate why they felt so horrible even though it seemed clear to others.

Aelan, can we generalize about willies?

Well, just to throw it out there (despite being in the NF area )

1) Why do you think Ns have a harder time as kids? Roughly 1/2 the population under graduation age are "Ns". It's not like Ns get bullied more or anything.

2) Why would Ns have a harder time in negative situations? If anything, I agree with Ss are the least able to handle change.

3) And of course, it is the degree of I/E and neuroticism that really define how we handle stressful situations.


Know who I'd be comforting? The I--Ps. Life doesn't get better for them, as a general rule... and I'm including bullying at a young age to fitting into the working world. They need to learn coping skills to reach their potential. If there was a single trait in which I wouldn't worry about, it'd be N. It comes so packed with advantages that worrying about them seems strange.

Course, if we were talking about being a smart kid... well, that's different. And I think that's really what was meant.

 

[white]

older.... um yes.... but really what is older, maybe mature is a better thought? what do you think?

more mature. Age isn't always correlated to maturity. There're a lot of folks in arrested development.

Well, my point was the opposite. The S's I have known got more neurotic and suffered psychosomatic conditions because of the stress... and were unable to articulate why they felt so horrible even though it seemed clear to others.

Aelan, can we generalize about willies?

Umm. As much as we can generalize about breasts I guess.

Well, just to throw it out there (despite being in the NF area )

1) Why do you think Ns have a harder time as kids? Roughly 1/2 the population under graduation age are "Ns". It's not like Ns get bullied more or anything.

Interesting point there. I was never bullied in a physical sense, but if you take bullying to mean whipped into conformity, and burying a part of whom you are, then perhaps.

I think it is a difference where we are - I was told when I did the MBTI at 17 that in my country, there were 6Ses for 1N. Imagination wasn't as much valued vs being realistic.

Was constantly told to stop being idealistic for e.g. In that setting, it was rather tough for me. For e.g. in kindergarten, I'd always have to explain to teachers why I'd colour my clouds yellow and the sky purple. Or in grade school why I wanted to write as a career, when "engineers, doctors, lawyers make more money". *muses*. Or why people thought I was crazy when I gave up a scholarship because I felt it was death to be tied to a job I didn't know, for 5 years in return for going overseas for 4. To them. They saw job stability and recognition and etc.

2) Why would Ns have a harder time in negative situations? If anything, I agree with Ss are the least able to handle change.

I think it is why I said the point of release for Ses (Am I the only one who keeps reading this as "asses" ) comes when they start seeing multi-meanings and that things can be different from what is said, done. Perhaps you have a point here that it is easier for someone imaginative to curtail that imagination, then for a realist to start seeing things in different lights?

Course, if we were talking about being a smart kid... well, that's different. And I think that's really what was meant.

Trust an ISTP to point out the blindingly obvious.

 

[ptgatsby]

Interesting point there. I was never bullied in a physical sense, but if you take bullying to mean whipped into conformity, and burying a part of whom you are, then perhaps.

Just to be clear on the S/N thing, I was heavily bullied as a kid and continue to have issues as a result... however, this doesn't change when you say whipped into conformity - I went through the same process... most kids do (I'd say over half - I'd call them Ps.)

I think it is a difference where we are - I was told when I did the MBTI at 17 that in my country, there were 6Ses for 1N. Imagination wasn't as much valued vs being realistic.

In general, there are ~2x as many Ss as there are Ns, but this changes depending on the age group you measure. I don't think country differences were ever strong enough to make it a near 6:1 ratio, although I have seen samples that somewhat close (although I can't remember any at ~86% Ss, egad.)

I couldn't find the table I was thinking of referring to N:S being roughly equal in highschool, so take that bit with a grain of salt. About all I can say for sure is that it's not as bad from 13-25 than it is from 50-65, in terms of population distribution.

Was constantly told to stop being idealistic for e.g. In that setting, it was rather tough for me. For e.g. in kindergarten, I'd always have to explain to teachers why I'd colour my clouds yellow and the sky purple. Or in grade school why I wanted to write as a career, when "engineers, doctors, lawyers make more money". *muses*. Or why people thought I was crazy when I gave up a scholarship because I felt it was death to be tied to a job I didn't know, for 5 years in return for going overseas for 4. To them. They saw job stability and recognition and etc.

I would agree, but is this any different than being called down for being a loner (I>E)? Or not being able to focus or complete things (P>J)?

I hear what you are saying, but why associate that with N>S? The theory, I presume, of Ns being stuck in the clouds... but I see too much projection on this one trait. I'm stuck at a corporate job that drains my life as well... There is a preference for Ns more than Ss in the corporate world... while it's the Ps and Fs that suffer in that world. That's the focus of my confusion - things do get better for Ns because they already tend to be smarter on average, but things get better for smart Ss too. I just don't see Ns suffering more than the same Ss early on in life.

Perhaps you have a point here that it is easier for someone imaginative to curtail that imagination, then for a realist to start seeing things in different lights?

Well, it depends on how you define it. To put it another way, abstract thinking tends to be an aptitude - that is, you can't learn it. Ss that are effectively literal thinkers only lack the ability to become "N"ish, regardless if you define it as a method of thinking or the ability to think (ie: abstract or IQ). Again, though, this doesn't mean that all Ss are literal thinkers, anymore than Ns aren't going to go off the deep end on abstract thinking and lose themselves.

It's just that in that sense, yes... "Ns" can gain the skills to do tangible things - do you not learn grammar, vocabulary to write? Yet, can someone really learn to write creative stories? I don't think the two can be treated equally. Course, a literal writer who writes hours a day and takes advice will be better than an abstract writer who depends on their innate skill, so it's not a clean line...

Once you strip out ability from the S:N divide... well, it looks very different. But intelligent kids to have issues - they all do, regardless if they end up as S or N. True, there are more gifted

(Some of this is IMO, of course, because I'm not sure anyone has specified a quantifiable way of measuring that Ns suffer as children - yours was the only one I read so far, but I'm not sure why it gets singled out. I would hazard a guess that Ss that are at the other end of 'imaginative' also have a very hard time in school, just as Ns with higher IQs will have the same problems with Ss with high IQs)

 

[miked277]

Sometimes I just wish I could let young people with a strong N know that things will be so much better for them when they are older.

Anyone else?

autumn

i wish i had a N parent or mentor growing up. while it was fun learning how to be me and not what they wanted me to be, i think i would have prefered to have an experienced guide show me all the ins and outs of being ... different.

 

[white]

*augh* My original post got swallowed up so this is as far as I could reconstruct.

Just to be clear on the S/N thing, I was heavily bullied as a kid and continue to have issues as a result... however, this doesn't change when you say whipped into conformity - I went through the same process... most kids do

Sorry to hear that. For some reason I was never physically bullied though I didn't fit in.

(I'd say over half - I'd call them Ps.)

In general, there are ~2x as many Ss as there are Ns, but this changes depending on the age group you measure. I don't think country differences were ever strong enough to make it a near 6:1 ratio, although I have seen samples that somewhat close (although I can't remember any at ~86% Ss, egad.)

Dammit, I was lied to?! :steam: I tried to search out the stats and I can't find it. The powers that be. . .

I would agree, but is this any different than being called down for being a loner (I>E)? Or not being able to focus or complete things (P>J)?

I think where you're coming from is that all of us are different from the norm in some way, and there's always going to be something to pick on. I agree fully with that. The difference is more how well each deals with it that perhaps determines the extent of the "scarring", isn't it.

To that end, I have to say I was merely giving examples of why I felt I didn't fit in, and trying to relate that to the OP, and wondering if other Ns had the same experience. Perhaps to let them know that it is normal. I couldn't speak for S because I'm almost zero Se and Si, so I thought it'd be better they spoke for themselves.

In a sense, as you've mentioned, it is hard to quantify who has a harder time of fitting in, and it is easy to turn this into a self-pity exercise as well - "badge of honour who had the most miserable time?"

Was then trying to work out for S/N, what could be the "way out" to break that cycle of victimhood, in a way. FWIW, you come across very balanced, a touch cynical, but sensible. So kudos to you for working over your childhood. Must've taken a lot.

I hear what you are saying, but why associate that with N>S? The theory, I presume, of Ns being stuck in the clouds... but I see too much projection on this one trait. I'm stuck at a corporate job that drains my life as well... There is a preference for Ns more than Ss in the corporate world... while it's the Ps and Fs that suffer in that world. That's the focus of my confusion - things do get better for Ns because they already tend to be smarter on average, but things get better for smart Ss too. I just don't see Ns suffering more than the same Ss early on in life.

See above on personal examples trying to relate to OP. Never meant to say each type has it easier, was just thinking aloud in a sense, what is possible given the OP.

Is it possible Ns remember suffering differently? It's a habit of internalising and purifying the pain, so you see thrusts that weren't even there. I'm not sure how to phrase it better.

So there is in a sense, a greater push to put some distance from it. Would that be the driver to make things better?

I'm not sure if acceptance comes easier to which type. Part of moving on comes with acceptance. That's the reality kicker that Pink meant I think.

It's just that in that sense, yes... "Ns" can gain the skills to do tangible things - do you not learn grammar, vocabulary to write? Yet, can someone really learn to write creative stories? I don't think the two can be treated equally. Course, a literal writer who writes hours a day and takes advice will be better than an abstract writer who depends on their innate skill, so it's not a clean line...

This is the strange thing, I've never learnt English for e.g. by learning about nouns and verbs and grammar structures etc. I learnt more by reading since young. Even now I've difficulty defining what an adverb/nonparticular thingamijing is. It just flows for me or doesn't. So directions make no sense to me for e.g. I get lost around my own home.

I think each type ultimately has pros and cons in terms of functioning, being bullied, and defenses against. So the key is more trying to reach a balance. Growing up is not easy, period.

Once you strip out ability from the S:N divide... well, it looks very different. But intelligent kids to have issues - they all do, regardless if they end up as S or N. True, there are more gifted

(Some of this is IMO, of course, because I'm not sure anyone has specified a quantifiable way of measuring that Ns suffer as children - yours was the only one I read so far, but I'm not sure why it gets singled out. I would hazard a guess that Ss that are at the other end of 'imaginative' also have a very hard time in school, just as Ns with higher IQs will have the same problems with Ss with high IQs)

Was the post cut? This could be a derailment, but why are kids with high IQs singled out; wondering is it a culture thing? In many Asian societies, high IQ kids are actually the elite. They can be assured of steady jobs, good income, doors opened to society which normal kids do not get etc. In a sense, I was "whipped" because I refused to take that position. ISTJs do well in my world.

 

[wolfmaiden14]

Quick Response to OP:

Someone saying something helped me too. My ISFP best friend drew/painted/wrote me a book for my 16th birthday which was basically an illustrated story-poem she had written about me and one of my fictional crushes. It's title was "The Late Bloomer." And on the inside she wrote, "To my favorite late bloomer." I had never thought of myself that way before, but just that idea comforted me. Like she WAS saying, "Hey.. things'll get better for you.. I know it!"

I still sit here hoping that one day the work I put forth will get me where I want to be, and that people will appreciate what I can do over what I can't. It was nice to hear it's possible then, and still nice to hear now.

Even if the person doesn't "listen." They've still heard. They'll be able to tuck it away deep inside and maybe pull it back up in a time of need later.

Edit: And finally scanning some of the other posts.. really this works regardless of type. Giving ANYONE a comforting word can make a huge difference.

 

[Domino]

Well, my point was the opposite. The S's I have known got more neurotic and suffered psychosomatic conditions because of the stress... and were unable to articulate why they felt so horrible even though it seemed clear to others.

This *is* all about perceptions. Neither of us is incorrect. Apparently we grew up in two entirely different realms of experience. The Ss I knew we never at a loss as to how to articulate their problems. They just didn't do it in an N manner.

Holy heck, it's raining cats and dogs outside.

 

[runvardh]

*plops on Pink's roof*