[MBTI General] INFJ Compatibility - Why the INFJ/ENTP dynamic is hands down the best.

[cascadeco]

On this board, INFJs are treated like the Holy Grail, like angels who radiate constant good will and sunshine, who cough up solid gold hairballs.

But..but...I DO cough up solid gold (and diamond-encrusted, I might add) hairballs!!! :steam:

 

[Qre:us]

Dom, how is it you like these guys, seriously?

Jokes aside, don't let a select few bias your perception of ENTP. It'd be the same thing the OP is doing with types.

 

[Amargith]

Jokes aside, don't let a select few bias your perception of ENTP. It'd be the same thing the OP is doing with types.

Hence the emoticon
I'm fully aware of that, and trust me, a select few have already very much helped out in weakening that bias

 

[Qre:us]

Hence the emoticon
I'm fully aware of that, and trust me, a select few have already very much helped out in weakening that bias

Oh......t'was nothing....don't mention it.

 

[Domino]

Is it so obvious, then? Are we not living in a world where half of all marriages fail?

That's an incredibly sad statistic. I can't even believe it's real sometimes, but after looking at my own friends, going from one ill-fated marriage to the next, I don't question it, even if my mind can't grasp the huge numbers. I think that number hinges on the fact that people don't believe in waiting for a good thing (by first knowing themselves) and making a commitment. Everything is disposable (including this razor I got in the mail tucked into a pair of shoes I got for Christmas - dude. It was rubberized and GIANT and so over-engineered I thought it was a permanent razor at first, and when I showed the monstrosity to my sister, she raised her eyebrows and said, "A million of those things are going into a landfill right now." So I wrote the company and told them that I could never buy such a thing because it's just ridiculous and couldn't be recycled if I threw it directly into the sun.)

Why do you think people (particular NT males) value INFJs so much?

Here's the thing. I think the whole world values the INFJ. The whole world. I'm not being sarcastic. They're archetypally Jesus, so come on. That's the apex of the human (albeit, Christian... ok ok, Gandhi! There!) experience. There are things about that that are so strange and wonderful, you'd be a fool to not appreciate them on some level. As a type, they have a mystical edge that is an amazing thing to behold.

But I've also personally witnessed their barbaric inhuman emotional cruelties, their unmatched selfishness, and their explosions that level the whole block. We all have these dark sides. These unlovely things. I think seeing one without the other is foolish and willfully misunderstanding the nature of the beast.

I sometimes have no idea why my family loves me the way they do. I know why I love them, but the other way around? I would consider myself the first to be eaten in the life boat.

Meh, it's the internet. Everyone here's a persona, anyway, as you correctly mentioned. You've got a mix of teenagers talking to twenty-somethings talking to people with families. The trick is to figure out what's being said to make someone feel better, what's an expression of immaturity and inexperience, and what is a question based on the very foundations of human society.

Based on the OP, which would you dub it?

Is there something that INFJs do that is rare in other potential dating partners? If so, why do you think others value it so highly?

Not sure. It could be the illusive nature of Ni paired with feeling. I think INTJs, with the same primary trait, get overlooked because Te comes next, and not the warm fur of Fe.

Shore 'nuff

What I say, hack-um yack-um!

But..but...I DO cough up solid gold (and diamond-encrusted, I might add) hairballs!!! :steam:

Why do you think I stand next to you with a bucket, woman?!

(See, I knew those shiny things weren't gall stones! The LIES!)

 

[onemoretime]

That's an incredibly sad statistic. I can't even believe it's real sometimes, but after looking at my own friends, going from one ill-fated marriage to the next, I don't question it, even if my mind can't grasp the huge numbers. I think that number hinges on the fact that people don't believe in waiting for a good thing (by first knowing themselves) and making a commitment.

You're right, and that's what I think the OP was getting at - when it comes to something that will be a mutually beneficial "good thing", it seems like INFJs are often not open to ENTPs of the same age, since the latter are generally slower to mature. Looking through it through the lens of NeTi and common experience ("it all fits! it all makes sense! why are you not doing this?") I can understand his frustration. Even when the numbers empirically say something, people will go in a completely opposite direction, and this is incredibly frustrating. Now, add the sting of rejection in there, and tell me if that sort of response isn't more reasonable.

Everything is disposable (including this razor I got in the mail tucked into a pair of shoes I got for Christmas - dude. It was rubberized and GIANT and so over-engineered I thought it was a permanent razor at first, and when I showed the monstrosity to my sister, she raised her eyebrows and said, "A million of those things are going into a landfill right now." So I wrote the company and told them that I could never buy such a thing because it's just ridiculous and couldn't be recycled if I threw it directly into the sun.)

Entropy's simply the nature of the universe. Shame we seem to be so good at expediting it.

Here's the thing. I think the whole world values the INFJ. The whole world. I'm not being sarcastic. They're archetypally Jesus, so come on. That's the apex of the human (albeit, Christian) experience. There are things about that are so strange and wonderful, you'd be a fool to not appreciate them on some level. As a type, they have a mystical edge that is an amazing thing to behold.

ENTPs aren't particularly interested in mysticism. In fact, we're pretty damn skeptical of any of that business. I'm going to need another suggestion.

But I've also personally witnessed their barbaric inhuman emotional cruelties, their unmatched selfishness, and their explosions that level the whole block. We all have these dark sides. These unlovely things. I think seeing one without the other is foolish and willfully misunderstanding the nature of the beast.

NeJi doesn't really determine the nature of a person until they've seen all facets of that person's character. I'm not so sure there's a lack of willingness to see the dark side of a person's character.

I sometimes have no idea why my family loves me the way they do. I know why I love them, but the other way around? I would consider myself the first to be eaten in the life boat.

I hate to sound patronizing, but isn't that a bit of a silly question? You belong to them. By nature of those familial ties you have between each other, you're inextricable from their very character. You know what else? They probably all feel the same way about themselves, either because they're filled with doubt, or they would gladly sacrifice themselves that the others may live. That's how deep it is - you'd rather die yourself than see one of them go, because in reality, there's just no difference.

Based on the OP, which would you dub it?

Nature of society. It's just a restatement of the age-old question "why do nice girls go for asshole guys?" We know the answer, but it isn't very satisfying. Unfortunately, we're also bound by Ti to seek a logical solution for every problem, and since we're naturally extroverted, we're going to base a lot of validation on external results. Consequently, mucho relationship angst.

Not sure. It could be the illusive nature of Ni paired with feeling. I think INTJs, with the same primary trait, get overlooked because Te comes next, and not the warm fur of Fe.

In my experience, it has been the patience of INFJs which has allured me. They make me feel calm and at ease. When your brain is running at seemingly .85c, you'll never believe how valuable this feeling is. At the same time, they're one of the few people who I can argue a very controversial and inflammatory position with, and even if I offend them, as soon as I apologize and make it clear that my intention was solely to discuss the merits of a position, everything is good again.

 

[proteanmix]

Is there something that INFJs do that is rare in other potential dating partners? If so, why do you think others value it so highly?

This is my personal little anecdote about why I think people like IxFJs (I'm extending this to ISFJs because I've noticed this with them as well). I will preface this with being an IxFJ admirer myself but not because of the reasons why I think most other people are.

IxFJs are easy to use and allow themselves to be used. Actually, that's not the best way to phrase this...it's more like IxFJs are good at making themselves indispensable and filling in gaps and people come to be dependent on them. They have the Fe gift of quickly assessing the needs of another person, whether they be physical or corporeal. People like that. People like having the IxxJ steadiness and the Fe attentiveness, BUT they don't have to get it from an ExFJ who will without out doubt eventually rip you a new one if they are consistently under appreciated or crossed to often. I've had to impress upon my INFJ friends several times for automatically thinking something was their fault or they'd done something wrong when it was a mixture of circumstance, misunderstanding, and miscommunication that often goes beyond them. IxxJs in general are prone to shoulder responsibility, but Te is more likely to get gruffer and lay down the law than Fe is. More unscrupulous people and those who are less reciprocity-minded are completely willing to let someone shoulder the bulk of the responsibility like that.

There are a surprising amount of ISFJ deputy directors at my job. I noticed this over a year ago and began to see if there were any unifying personality traits as to why this is so. I mentioned this in another post so it's a repeat but basically I notice these people are very thorough, efficient, dependent, interpersonally sensitive, unobtrusive, and unlikely to give much "back talk," and capable of blending in with the environment. They're good listeners (or rather quiet and polite enough to allow people to out/overtalk them) and less likely to openly vent like an ExFJ would. Being Fe when they choose to, they can fake extrovert fairly well and loosen up considerably and going by my INFJ friend basically play psychologist and therapist to everyone hi which adds another layer of dependency.

BUT at the same time, they're not these little servile people that only live to please. Many times that indispensability and constancy people love didn't happen on accident. I've been told by INFJs in particular how they got someone to be dependent on them. My INFJ friend/coworker has her INTJ wrapped around her finger because she knows how make him feel like the big smart boss who knows how to solve every problem. She's told me several times, "Sometimes you just gotta make your boss feel like the boss and they'll like it. If you stroke them often enough they'll come to you for that praise." That comes in the form of getting his dry cleaning, filling out his Visa forms, booking non-work related flights and hotels, reminding him of personal birthdays, mundane little things that aren't so mundane if you know the value of it. We have this joke about him preening in "suck my dick" pose, and, well you guys can figure it out.

This is not done by accident on her part. She knows what she's doing.

In comparison, I don't see as much of this with IxFPs although I need more data to come to a fuller conclusion. Superficially IxFPs in my office are perceived as flightier so they don't have the reliability factor that IxFJs have, although they do have the same unobtrusiveness and mind their own business more than IxFJs, which is good in it's own way and has it's set of bonuses.

Romantically and interpersonally these same behaviors play themselves out with IxFJs only the person in question will see their fuller personality. I've often had both ISFJs and INFJs tell me they're the ones who wear the pants in their relationships and I believe them if what I see is at all accurate.

Meh, it's the internet. Everyone here's a persona, anyway, as you correctly mentioned. You've got a mix of teenagers talking to twenty-somethings talking to people with families. The trick is to figure out what's being said to make someone feel better, what's an expression of immaturity and inexperience, and what is a question based on the very foundations of human society.

Blessedly, very few people in real life know about MBTI or take it to the near Ark of the Covenant levels an ungodly amount of people here do.

 

[Domino]

You're right, and that's what I think the OP was getting at - when it comes to something that will be a mutually beneficial "good thing", it seems like INFJs are often not open to ENTPs of the same age, since the latter are generally slower to mature. Looking through it through the lens of NeTi and common experience ("it all fits! it all makes sense! why are you not doing this?") I can understand his frustration. Even when the numbers empirically say something, people will go in a completely opposite direction, and this is incredibly frustrating.

Interesting.

Now, add the sting of rejection in there, and tell me if that sort of response isn't more reasonable.

I pity anyone's emotional angst - that's what you're appealing to, yes? My own "reasonable" response as a human being and a feeler to take pity on this man's pain? I can empathize with pain. It's what I do by design. Even people I cannot tolerate manage to exact some tiny amount of pity or goodwill from me (though I tend to crush it with my heel rather than be importuned by such a needless kneejerk reaction). Would I go out of my way to hurt them? No. I answer to God and my conscience for that, and they prove too strict to allow me to degrade into a mercenary.

I may empathize, but I don't let it get the better of me, especially in cases such as these where the creator of this thread seems not to be saying "Here's why I (meaning "me only", "as from my own mind", "how I feel to be balanced by other opinions contrary to mine") think this pairing is best FOR ME" - instead I see his ignorant tirade against an entire type (read: ENFJs) in lieu of saying "This isn't for me, and here are my personal rational reasons why..." followed by an irrational blow up. What makes it irrational is its direction toward ME. The direction makes the difference. I offer resistance, he downshifts into middle school taunting and what is meant to be a withering dismissal.

I may understand on a human level, but I don't accept that response as reasonable. I didn't realize I was interrupting a fantasy.

Entropy's simply the nature of the universe. Shame we seem to be so good at expediting it.

Entropy? Or.... ENTROPIE? *horror music* I could see an ENTP bringing on the apocalypse. *laughs*

ENTPs aren't particularly interested in mysticism. In fact, we're pretty damn skeptical of any of that business. I'm going to need another suggestion.

May I ask - is this your personal stance? You speak for all ENTPs or your experience as one?

NeJi doesn't really determine the nature of a person until they've seen all facets of that person's character. I'm not so sure there's a lack of willingness to see the dark side of a person's character.

While that may be true universally (I don't doubt your veracity), there's a clear lack of willingness in this thread. I see doves and angels in the woodwork, and no real human beings.

I hate to sound patronizing, but isn't that a bit of a silly question? You belong to them. By nature of those familial ties you have between each other, you're inextricable from their very character. You know what else? They probably all feel the same way about themselves, either because they're filled with doubt, or they would gladly sacrifice themselves that the others may live. That's how deep it is - you'd rather die yourself than see one of them go, because in reality, there's just no difference.

Ah no. Allow me to clarify. What I meant to relay was my personality qualifications, not my intangible meaning others close to me. I know what I bring emotionally and mentally, and in that sense, my value, but as to practical matters, I'm pretty useless and must be directed. I posted something in my blog about my INFJ father and I - he showed up unexpectedly. I wandered out onto the porch in my pajamas. He said, "Daughter, you look confused." "No," I said. "I just haven't brushed my hair." He laughed, and I told him that it wasn't in my eyes so I didn't think to tidy it. And he acted like this made all the sense in the world. "Well, if it's not bothering you, then why bother it?"

I feel my constant string of moments make me less "valuable" in a real world. Is that any more clear?

Nature of society. It's just a restatement of the age-old question "why do nice girls go for asshole guys?" We know the answer, but it isn't very satisfying. Unfortunately, we're also bound by Ti to seek a logical solution for every problem, and since we're naturally extroverted, we're going to base a lot of validation on external results. Consequently, mucho relationship angst.

Would you care to elaborate further?

In my experience, it has been the patience of INFJs which has allured me. They make me feel calm and at ease. When your brain is running at seemingly .85c, you'll never believe how valuable this feeling is. At the same time, they're one of the few people who I can argue a very controversial and inflammatory position with, and even if I offend them, as soon as I apologize and make it clear that my intention was solely to discuss the merits of a position, everything is good again.

Then it sounds like the right match for you.

IxFJs are easy to use and allow themselves to be used. Actually, that's not the best way to phrase this...it's more like IxFJs are good at making themselves indispensable and filling in gaps and people come to be dependent on them. They have the Fe gift of quickly assessing the needs of another person, whether they be physical or corporeal. People like that. People like having the IxxJ steadiness and the Fe attentiveness,

This is what attracts the narcissists and makes everyone else who doesn't aide and abet look like jerks/cavemen.

BUT they don't have to get it from an ExFJ who will without out doubt eventually rip you a new one if they are consistently under appreciated or crossed too often.

+1

Blessedly, very few people in real life know about MBTI or take it to the near Ark of the Covenant levels an ungodly amount of people here do.

Amen, sister.

 

[onemoretime]

I pity anyone's emotional angst - that's what you're appealing to, yes? My own "reasonable" response as a human being and a feeler to take pity on this man's pain? I can empathize with pain. It's what I do by design. Even people I cannot tolerate manage to exact some tiny amount of pity or goodwill from me (though I tend to crush it with my heel rather than be importuned by such a needless kneejerk reaction). Would I go out of my way to hurt them? No. I answer to God and my conscience for that, and they prove too strict to allow me to degrade into a mercenary.

I may empathize, but I don't let it get the better of me, especially in cases such as these where the creator of this thread seems not to be saying "Here's why I (meaning "me only", "as from my own mind", "how I feel to be balanced by other opinions contrary to mine") think this pairing is best FOR ME" - instead I see his ignorant tirade against an entire type (read: ENFJs) in lieu of saying "This isn't for me, and here are my personal rational reasons why..." followed by an irrational blow up. What makes it irrational is its direction toward ME. The direction makes the difference. I offer resistance, he downshifts into middle school taunting and what is meant to be a withering dismissal.

Fair enough. I admit, stereotyping is unfortunate. At the same time, I think it's meant more to shield himself from something that is acutely painful. I think it's silly, but I also think he knows its silly, and will likely regret having posted it if he see it again. Lord knows I recognize when I let my emotions get the better of me - precisely by when I try to be objective about a completely subjective subject.

I may understand on a human level, but I don't accept that response as reasonable. I didn't realize I was interrupting a fantasy.

It's not a fantasy. It's just how we work things out. It may come across as a fantasy, but deep down inside, we know the truth. We just don't want others to know it's hurting us, that's all.

Entropy? Or.... ENTROPIE? *horror music* I could see an ENTP bringing on the apocalypse. *laughs*

Well, you do know the Tralfamadorians will destroy the universe when they are testing a new rocket engine design, right?

May I ask - is this your personal stance? You speak for all ENTPs or your experience as one?

That's my own experience, and that of the other ENTPs I've known (most of the ESTPs as well). I have no clue what it means when someone says they "feel the presence of God" (and I went to church growing up), and once assumed they were either deluding themselves or trying to dupe me.

While that may be true universally (I don't doubt your veracity), there's a clear lack of willingness in this thread. I see doves and angels in the woodwork, and no real human beings.

You're expecting people who are grasping for the last threads of hope, that their lifelong feelings of isolation may be quelled, to act with a clear head. Of course they'll stereotype and generalize in a binary fashion - that's the shadow coming out. It's sort of like when a man is acting in a way others would see as misogynist; it's very unlikely that the man does not love and respect his mother, right? He might have just been burned by a horrific end to a relationship and needs to vent.

Ah no. Allow me to clarify. What I meant to relay was my personality qualifications, not my intangible meaning others close to me. I know what I bring emotionally and mentally, and in that sense, my value, but as to practical matters, I'm pretty useless and must be directed. I posted something in my blog about my INFJ father and I - he showed up unexpectedly. I wandered out onto the porch in my pajamas. He said, "Daughter, you look confused." "No," I said. "I just haven't brushed my hair." He laughed, and I told him that it wasn't in my eyes so I didn't think to tidy it. And he acted like this made all the sense in the world. "Well, if it's not bothering you, then why bother it?"

I feel my constant string of moments make me less "valuable" in a real world. Is that any more clear?

Yeah. He probably looks upon those moments with fondness. You're still his little girl, after all, and it probably makes him feel important to know that you still might need a hand once in a while. I know it's a cliche, but I really do think you never grow up in your parents' eyes.

No one has to be perfect all the time - I can tell you, as a typical NT know-it-all, people really, really do not like that. It's a good thing to show others your foibles from time to time. Besides, if men were angels, we wouldn't even be having this conversation . Love is about needing that person in your life, despite their imperfections.

Would you care to elaborate further?

We know that good girls go for asshole guys because that's how we evolved. This knowledge makes perfect logical sense (NeTi). It also offends our sense of interpersonal equity deeply (Fe). So, to validate our own sense of sexual attractiveness, some ENTPs develop an abrasiveness to their normal "argumentative" speech patterns. This only serves to turn more girls off, so things become more and more frustrating.

Then it sounds like the right match for you.

I tend to desire finding the right match for me the old-fashioned way. More of a challenge that way, isn't it?

 

[Domino]

Fair enough. I admit, stereotyping is unfortunate. At the same time, I think it's meant more to shield himself from something that is acutely painful. I think it's silly, but I also think he knows its silly, and will likely regret having posted it if he see it again. Lord knows I recognize when I let my emotions get the better of me - precisely by when I try to be objective about a completely subjective subject.

Had I pointed out the distinct signs of desperation here, I would have been booed down for being a harpy. Coming from you, it will ride.

It's not a fantasy. It's just how we work things out. It may come across as a fantasy, but deep down inside, we know the truth. We just don't want others to know it's hurting us, that's all.

Dear me. Allow me to clarify (one more time - see what I did there?). I didn't say his expectations of happiness were fantasy. That would be cruel and presumptuous. I would have no way of knowing that unless I was inside his brain. What I label "fantasy" is anything defended with aforementioned desperate energy as if it were never to happen in reality. Had no possibility. Had no bearing. Had no sustaining substance.

Do we not all feel that pang at times? We do. Believe me, I need not be taught about that. Try being a girl with a pain disorder with a history of violence and a background of poverty. Do I resent my eternal hope for better? Do I instinctively retreat into a more beautiful world to help brace for the next blow? Do I hope for the best while preparing for the worst? Do I slam the door in the face of reality when the pain is too bad? Do I shove my memories of love away while holding them so close my knuckles turn white?

It's the masochistic tendency of us all. We never live up to what's in our minds. We disqualify ourselves.

Save me. Save me. Help me. 11th hour rescue. Obscurity. Personal obliteration. The bullet that won't fire.

What I detect as "fantasy" in this thread - this thread - is the lack of balance. Even clouds cast shadows.

Well, you do know the Tralfamadorians will destroy the universe when they are testing a new rocket engine design, right?

lol! ... good point... ... ...

That's my own experience, and that of the other ENTPs I've known (most of the ESTPs as well). I have no clue what it means when someone says they "feel the presence of God" (and I went to church growing up), and once assumed they were either deluding themselves or trying to dupe me.

I believe C. S. Lewis refers to it as the "numinous" experience. What cannot be explained, only felt. When you're in the presence of things extremely old, or in a place with so many human presences built up on it over the centuries, do you never feel the sense that you're swimming in the spirits of the semi-departed? We die, but we don't cease.

You're expecting people who are grasping for the last threads of hope, that their lifelong feelings of isolation may be quelled, to act with a clear head. Of course they'll stereotype and generalize in a binary fashion - that's the shadow coming out. It's sort of like when a man is acting in a way others would see as misogynist; it's very unlikely that the man does not love and respect his mother, right? He might have just been burned by a horrific end to a relationship and needs to vent.

He says he knows no ENFJs in real life. How would he know? Do I read immaturity into this again to explain away his swipe at me when I dared to wave my hand through his smoke?

Again, you seem to detect a last ditch desperation in this thread. I find that interesting. I'm filing it away for future reference.

IRL, I've dealt with people who seemed irrational or actively repulsive. I remember when I was schooling in Northern Ireland, there was a girl there in my class (in my locker bay, even) who told me from the outset when I first met her, "You won't like me. Nobody does."

I ignored that. Even though withdrawn and sarcastic, I thought she was funny and sweet-natured, and the day I told her she was beautiful, she blinked, said, "No I'm not. I'm ugly." It was ridiculous. She looked like a blond angel with beautiful skin and bright blue eyes. She'd taken the years of torment from the boys at school as truth. I remember standing several of them down like bloody-minded wolves looking for something weak to maul. I became very close with her. I even had her over to my house in the States. When we left Antrim, she came to my house to see us off and cried and cried.

I can see through that facade. What I don't like - and have learned not to tolerate - are active punishments. I may call for help, but I don't touch wounded animals - they bite.

Yeah. He probably looks upon those moments with fondness. You're still his little girl, after all, and it probably makes him feel important to know that you still might need a hand once in a while. I know it's a cliche, but I really do think you never grow up in your parents' eyes.

I get called Mini Me. We have the same hair, the same humor, the same intensity, the same bad eyesight, the same high temper and bookishness. We react to things the same way, sometimes in a mirror image when we're standing together. I think I scare him a lot, with my more external nature, like he instinctively wants me to protect myself, but admires me when I don't. I admire his high Ti and analytical nature.

No one has to be perfect all the time - I can tell you, as a typical NT know-it-all, people really, really do not like that. It's a good thing to show others your foibles from time to time. Besides, if men were angels, we wouldn't even be having this conversation . Love is about needing that person in your life, despite their imperfections.

I think what can be openly admired about NTPs from my own experience are their capacities for confession and self-renewal. My ex-bf, an eNTP, was a complicated mix of deep caring and humility, and being an arse. lol I loved how he helped others while being a thorn in their sides. I loved his ability to bust on himself as much as others. My own ENFP sister is a marvel - I cannot comprehend how tough she truly is, though I know what I've seen is enough to tell me that she's one of the most amazing people I've ever known. Ne-dominants have their own brand of tensile strength and ability to remain "open" even when life is hurling bricks at them.

We know that good girls go for asshole guys because that's how we evolved. This knowledge makes perfect logical sense (NeTi). It also offends our sense of interpersonal equity deeply (Fe). So, to validate our own sense of sexual attractiveness, some ENTPs develop an abrasiveness to their normal "argumentative" speech patterns. This only serves to turn more girls off, so things become more and more frustrating.

I've seen girls LEAP at jerks, and guys find the most abusive woman they can. It boggles the mind. It offends every sensible person.

I tend to desire finding the right match for me the old-fashioned way. More of a challenge that way, isn't it?

Oh, yes. Do I love a little challenge.

I tend to be, eh, old fashioned in my approaches as well. I like to see how things bear out, how certain people react to both hits and misses. It's amazing how some people can take the bad times in stride, but become ugly - like a shrieking laugh - when good things come their way. You can judge someone as easily by their reaction to prosperity as you can despair.

I've talked with Cascade before on this subject - we both feel as if we may be old cat ladies because we need things in love a certain way. Something hitting us just right. That intangible eureka quality of "yes". Seems like the planets must all align to get that - and who can make that happen? Your heart tells you: "Someone and no one".

 

[entropie]

my 5 cents: as said often, I dont really think its good to think about people in types at all. Maybe if you know them for some prolonged time you may type them for yourself, but by then you'ld already know if you like someone or not. If you typed him before you can ride down that one-laned road pretty quick as pink said .

From my personal experience, to stay on topic, I am not sure if my girlfriend is an infj. That's to be said first. Her being tho gets closest to the infj type and if I am an entp this would be an entp/infj pairing.

Ok now then here it comes: I'll never say at all that we have been a perfect match from the start. If you'ld assume a perfect match are two people who add to each other and harmonize that way, we were far from it when we met. We are so fundamentally different on approaching things and thats a think that has persisted until today.

Over 4 years of relation our love for each other did evolve on a long and stony path. We had huge fights and big arguements but we are both in love and that's what brought us together everytime a new. My girlfriend is an ingenius person, with a high intellect, a big heart and an ability to perceive the world in a way that is so colourful, imaginary, loving, daring and unique.

I've never met a person I could talk to in life without the need to explain myself and that is proof to me that our ways of thinking and feeling have evolved a similiar way. I can talk with her for hours, going off together with her on tangents, analyzing human behaviour in a deep and honest way making the whole world be a clockwork of relations interconnections, possibilities, dependancies and it creates a big picture that she with her optimistic and idealistic attitude lends a beautiful note.

I love her for her integrity, for her ability to be honest with herself and for her high demands she sets for people close to her. She is a challenge, a sister, a lover, an idiot, a strong-willed leader, a sensible woman and a dream.

All that I said here tho, took a long time of darkness before it evolved and its only thanks to our too sharing an equal perception of the world and her ability to empathise with other persons on the most highest level of accuracy + her ability to see when she is wrong and to talk about it like its the most natural thing on earth so we can both work on it for the future that this relationship is possible at all.

I could never, in every nanofiber of my cyborg rational mind sign the contract that deals entp and infjs as handsdown the best pairing on earth, cause as I said there are a million factors who come into the equation between two human beings to make it happen at all. I find it charming and fun if someone would say it, but to actual use it as a scientific tool of psychology or behaviour to create type pairings, I think is fail.

[YOUTUBE="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o8vYgqt7B0U"].[/YOUTUBE]

 

[onemoretime]

Had I pointed out the distinct signs of desperation here, I would have been booed down for being a harpy. Coming from you, it will ride.

Ahh, but is it the information that is the difference, or is it the approach? You always come out with fewer casualties when you take the flank.

Dear me. Allow me to clarify (one more time - see what I did there?). I didn't say his expectations of happiness were fantasy. That would be cruel and presumptuous. I would have no way of knowing that unless I was inside his brain. What I label "fantasy" is anything defended with aforementioned desperate energy as if it were never to happen in reality. Had no possibility. Had no bearing. Had no sustaining substance.

Which you clearly could tell it did... but that's not your place to be. Everyone's got their parts of their psyche that are prohibited to the outside world. The way we deal with the things that truly make us sad is the primary one of those for an xNTP. Strangely enough, we do that for others' benefit. If you've seen an xNTP when we're truly devastated, it's not a pretty picture, one bit.

Do we not all feel that pang at times? We do. Believe me, I need not be taught about that. Try being a girl with a pain disorder with a history of violence and a background of poverty. Do I resent my eternal hope for better? Do I instinctively retreat into a more beautiful world to help brace for the next blow? Do I hope for the best while preparing for the worst? Do I slam the door in the face of reality when the pain is too bad? Do I shove my memories of love away while holding them so close my knuckles turn white?

You're right, we're all human.

It's the masochistic tendency of us all. We never live up to what's in our minds. We disqualify ourselves.

It's about reorienting yourself to where you have an internal locus of self-evaluation, rather than relying on the outside world to define who you are and what you're worth.

Save me. Save me. Help me. 11th hour rescue. Obscurity. Personal obliteration. The bullet that won't fire.

What I detect as "fantasy" in this thread - this thread - is the lack of balance. Even clouds cast shadows.

Clouds in torment also ruin people's days. Just remember, we do have a twinge of the Fe as well. We want to be useful. Just in our own way.

lol! ... good point... ... ...

So it goes...

I believe C. S. Lewis refers to it as the "numinous" experience. What cannot be explained, only felt. When you're in the presence of things extremely old, or in a place with so many human presences built up on it over the centuries, do you never feel the sense that you're swimming in the spirits of the semi-departed? We die, but we don't cease.

Not at all. In fact, if anything, I feel a greater understanding of the person as a human being, and that really, I'm not so different from those people after all, just in a different time, place and situation. That's not nearly as mind-blowing as say, the fact that you have not a single molecule in your body that you did 10 years ago. Now THAT'S mysterious.

He says he knows no ENFJs in real life. How would he know? Do I read immaturity into this again to explain away his swipe at me when I dared to wave my hand through his smoke?

Yup. I'm beginning to realize I'm in one of the higher percentiles for age on this board, and I'm only in my mid-20s.

Again, you seem to detect a last ditch desperation in this thread. I find that interesting. I'm filing it away for future reference.

He wouldn't have even mentioned it otherwise. Too personal.

IRL, I've dealt with people who seemed irrational or actively repulsive. I remember when I was schooling in Northern Ireland, there was a girl there in my class (in my locker bay, even) who told me from the outset when I first met her, "You won't like me. Nobody does."

I ignored that. Even though withdrawn and sarcastic, I thought she was funny and sweet-natured, and the day I told her she was beautiful, she blinked, said, "No I'm not. I'm ugly." It was ridiculous. She looked like a blond angel with beautiful skin and bright blue eyes. She'd taken the years of torment from the boys at school as truth. I remember standing several of them down like bloody-minded wolves looking for something weak to maul. I became very close with her. I even had her over to my house in the States. When we left Antrim, she came to my house to see us off and cried and cried.

I can see through that facade. What I don't like - and have learned not to tolerate - are active punishments. I may call for help, but I don't touch wounded animals - they bite.

Very true. You can't help those that do not want to be help. The world is fundamentally unjust, and some people by their experiences are born to be damned. This is... ah shit, time to go meditate. Why do I feel like I'm becoming more of a Buddhist every day?

I get called Mini Me. We have the same hair, the same humor, the same intensity, the same bad eyesight, the same high temper and bookishness. We react to things the same way, sometimes in a mirror image when we're standing together. I think I scare him a lot, with my more external nature, like he instinctively wants me to protect myself, but admires me when I don't. I admire his high Ti and analytical nature.

I think what can be openly admired about NTPs from my own experience are their capacities for confession and self-renewal. My ex-bf, an eNTP, was a complicated mix of deep caring and humility, and being an arse. lol I loved how he helped others while being a thorn in their sides. I loved his ability to bust on himself as much as others. My own ENFP sister is a marvel - I cannot comprehend how tough she truly is, though I know what I've seen is enough to tell me that she's one of the most amazing people I've ever known. Ne-dominants have their own brand of tensile strength and ability to remain "open" even when life is hurling bricks at them.

Much appreciated. It's funny - we're very open, but only on our own terms.

I've seen girls LEAP at jerks, and guys find the most abusive woman they can. It boggles the mind. It offends every sensible person.

I guess that makes a lot of people insensible, doesn't it?

Oh, yes. Do I love a little challenge.

I will say, it tends to not be as much fun for the men as it does the women. The ball generally is in your court, so to speak.

I tend to be, eh, old fashioned in my approaches as well. I like to see how things bear out, how certain people react to both hits and misses. It's amazing how some people can take the bad times in stride, but become ugly - like a shrieking laugh - when good things come their way. You can judge someone as easily by their reaction to prosperity as you can despair.

True. It's like in the movie Better off Dead: "once you've had a taste of success, you'll find it suits you quite well"... not to mention the idiots who win the lottery and are penniless five years later.

I've talked with Cascade before on this subject - we both feel as if we may be old cat ladies because we need things in love a certain way. Something hitting us just right. That intangible eureka quality of "yes". Seems like the planets must all align to get that - and who can make that happen? Your heart tells you: "Someone and no one".

Eh, I just need to get laid. Then I need someone I can have a good conversation with. Then, if I'm really lucky, I'll find both!

 

[Lauren Ashley]

Here's the thing. I think the whole world values the INFJ. The whole world. I'm not being sarcastic.

The whole typology world. I'm pretty sure not many people really notice me in daily life. Initially they might be interested, but the interest wanes pretty quickly because I'm neither extremely outgoing nor "fun." The type that the whole [real] world loves is ENFJ.

Also, why do other types always come in INFJ threads and try to bash/belittle anything pertaining to INFJs? The mere mention of INFJ tends to make other types, particularly other NFs, roll their eyes and begin "They're not that special" tirades.

 

[Jaguar]

The mere mention of INFJ tends to make other types, particularly other NFs, roll their eyes and begin "They're not that special" tirades.

Show me someone who behaves like that, and I will show you someone trying to cover up their own inferiority complex. It's that simple.
A secure person will always champion the gifts of others, and help push them along the path to their goal.

When diplomacy fails, just tell them to F.O.

 

[the state i am in]

of the 5 entps i know 3 of them are maybe mystical. it's still very earthy and pragmatic. it's just being inspired by the mysteries of the universe, and feeling deeply connected to them. one of them likes stargazing and just sent me a link about doshas, which immediately reminds me of the enneagram.

my entp friend is probably the best at immediately deactivating me and bringing out my absolute best in almost every conceivable situation. he needs no activation bc he's got all the life/social shit worked out far better than me, but what he needs help with also just so happens to be my expertise. plus it's difficult not to feel like geniuses when you communicate this well. thought is simply a communication process, and it can happen internally or externally. when it happens socially, you feel connected and part of something fucking brilliant, which is IN-spiring. Ne + Ni, when they're both supercharged and have great depth of vision, scale well, can see long-range abstraction as well, it's just a unique experience that feels very full, perfect, and complete. the Ti helps naturally absorb and focus these different layers.

i don't have the same communication quality, the overall balance and harmony with other types in quite the same way. by which i just mean that' it's not quite so natural and effortless. yet i find communication that absolutely works for me, is meaningful, informative, enjoyable, socially engaging, exciting, intellectually stimulating, inspiring, etc with other types. enfp, intj, intp, infp, enfj etc. i would like to know more entjs. and more infjs, now that i understand them.

i find that when i meet other N types in school, where you have shared interests, it's impossible not to become friends. sharing cultural activities is huge, altho with certain types i find it more likely that their cultural interests will fit into some larger overarching picture that will make them make sense, be interesting, grab my attention, etc. the ability to communicate why makes a huge difference.

 

[milkyway2]

While I am neither an INFJ or ENTP, this was interesting.

 

[violaine]

In my experience, it has been the patience of INFJs which has allured me. They make me feel calm and at ease. When your brain is running at seemingly .85c, you'll never believe how valuable this feeling is. At the same time, they're one of the few people who I can argue a very controversial and inflammatory position with, and even if I offend them, as soon as I apologize and make it clear that my intention was solely to discuss the merits of a position, everything is good again.

I have heard this many times from an ENTP, he says I have a calming effect, which makes me laugh as I don't feel particularly calm inside but it is something I must exude inadvertently. It comes from being patient, consistent, dealing with my emotions in-house and having mutual understanding as the goal.

I most definitely have a dark side but it's something I keep to myself.

All of that means I'm not unpredictable in the nature of the way I engage with someone. I know for more flighty people that that is comforting... that I will consistently be there and have their back no matter what. And I do mean no matter what. I am also very self-contained, I am happy for my partner to go off and do whatever makes them happy. I have no desire to mold another person into what I want. I am interested in optimal dynamic which requires two satisfied people. (Downside: not really going to dazzle someone right out of the gate. That's ok, I don't like to be rushed anyway, so a slower reveal is ok by me. Means you might miss out on someone you like who is into that. C'est la vie.)

People I care about can do and say the most dreadful things (in hindsight) but if I know it's a mistake or they are troubled it just doesn't get to me. I have broad shoulders, I will take it. I do not require a pound of flesh in return. I stand up for myself as well but it is always in a gentle way. I do not explode. And over time this breeds trust for both parties.

I think INFJ and ENTP recoil from being openly vulnerable. So an INFJ will approach in the way we like to be approached - gently, so as not to spook. I don't know why but I do know in my bones that many of them need this just as I do.

It's just a very complimentary dynamic that goes very deep as both people gradually peel away their layers for each other. And the process, once set in motion becomes highly compelling. Falling into trust, it's a very beautiful feeling.

Downside of all of the above is that as Protean said, it can result in being used. (I won't go into whether it's a tactic or not, I don't believe so for a lot of INFJs extrapolating from myself being that I'm rather tactically unawares and prefer to act from my being. So, I have no evidence whatsoever really. ) I was speaking with an INFJ the other night and we both bemoaned this masochistic part of our personalities. But in thinking further on it I have decided to reframe it as a result of our abilities - valuing everyone, having compassion, seeing potential, having incredible staying power. Sometimes it's misplaced and you get burned. So be it.

I wonder how many INFJs relate to the above. Apologies for using the royal 'we' as well.

 

[entropie]

I most definitely have a dark side but it's something I keep to myself.

$50 + a six pack beer, if you show me yours

--------------

A huge problem too, maybe only my perspective, is that one cant really talk about what one wants and what not. So when thinking about what a perfect match would be, you can talk about what you didnt like from past experiences but to give a quality assessment of what would be the ideal for you, one can do vaguely at best. Cause one doesnt know what kind of people, with what kind of qualities could be out there yet and tho one said for example for all of ones life "I'ld never go out with a blonde", suddenly one day there comes that special one, who throws ones world upside down. (But I have the feeling this was said earlier already )

 

[cascadeco]

I think what can be openly admired about NTPs from my own experience are their capacities for confession and self-renewal. My ex-bf, an eNTP, was a complicated mix of deep caring and humility, and being an arse. lol I loved how he helped others while being a thorn in their sides. I loved his ability to bust on himself as much as others. My own ENFP sister is a marvel - I cannot comprehend how tough she truly is, though I know what I've seen is enough to tell me that she's one of the most amazing people I've ever known. Ne-dominants have their own brand of tensile strength and ability to remain "open" even when life is hurling bricks at them.

I've talked with Cascade before on this subject - we both feel as if we may be old cat ladies because we need things in love a certain way. Something hitting us just right. That intangible eureka quality of "yes". Seems like the planets must all align to get that - and who can make that happen? Your heart tells you: "Someone and no one".

Yup.

I have heard this many times from an ENTP, he says I have a calming effect, which makes me laugh as I don't feel particularly calm inside but it is something I must exude inadvertently. It comes from being patient, consistent, dealing with my emotions in-house and having mutual understanding as the goal.

I heard the same fairly recently...told I was rather zen. I was like.....how can I be zen when I'm so tumultuous inside every now and then and half the time I don't feel like I have my shit together?? haha. But as you say..I think it's the result of dealing with emotions in-house (predominantly), and the whole patient, consistent piece. The external cloak we put on.

I most definitely have a dark side but it's something I keep to myself.

Yeah, typically my negative thoughts are done via writing, but occasionally I'll talk about them with someone I *really* trust and who I know will understand.

All of that means I'm not unpredictable in the nature of the way I engage with someone. I know for more flighty people that that is comforting... thatI will consistently be there and have their back no matter what. And I do mean no matter what. I am also very self-contained, I am happy for my partner to go off and do whatever makes them happy. I have no desire to mold another person into what I want. I am interested in optimal dynamic which requires two satisfied people. (Downside: not really going to dazzle someone right out of the gate. That's ok, I don't like to be rushed anyway, so a slower reveal is ok by me. Means you might miss out on someone you like who is into that. C'est la vie.)

Oh, I very much relate to the bolded piece, as well as lack of flightiness and predictability (at least externally) in nature.

People I care about can do and say the most dreadful things (in hindsight) but if I know it's a mistake or they are troubled it just doesn't get to me. I have broad shoulders, I will take it. I do not require a pound of flesh in return. I stand up for myself as well but it is always in a gentle way. I do not explode. And over time this breeds trust for both parties.

Yep!!

I think INFJ and ENTP recoil from being openly vulnerable. So an INFJ will approach in the way we like to be approached - gently, so as not to spook. I don't know why but I do know in my bones that many of them need this just as I do.

It's just a very complimentary dynamic that goes very deep as both people gradually peel away their layers for each other. And the process, once set in motion becomes highly compelling. Falling into trust, it's a very beautiful feeling.

But in thinking further on it I have decided to reframe it as a result of our abilities - valuing everyone, having compassion, seeing potential, having incredible staying power. Sometimes it's misplaced and you get burned. So be it.

Yeah, I agree.

Oh, and to Lauren Ashley's comment...I had to laugh at the 'I'm neither extremely outgoing nor "fun"' comment. Definitely relate!

 

[Lily Bart]

After 22 years of marriage to an ENTP, I'd have to say, Samvega, that your analysis is very perceptive, especially about what makes ENTP's tick. They tend to be unfairly labeled as superficial and egotistical (which may be somewhat true...) but you really catch on to ENTP's inner strengths. I find the typology-oriented relationship blurbs about why ENTP's and INFJ's are good for each other because they compensate for each other's weaknesses very annoying -- as if that's all there is to a good marriage. You make clear the inner bonds -- that ENTP and INFJ share the same worldview, essentially, as though the two types seem to mirror each other internally.