[ESTP] Breaking through to an ESTP

[Poki]

Obviously I understand this entirely, but this does not help the situation. I am looking for a solution here, not someone to blame. Yes it makes sense that the ESTP should be able to be themselves without having to worry about how their actions will affect everyone else, but they DO. I am trying to HELP ISFJ work through their issues and I NEED ESTP to work with me on this.

have you tried working with ESTP on a case by case basis as it is happening?

 

[Charmed Justice]

How old is the ESTP?

 

[McRumi]

The important question is: has the ISFJ complained and asked for help or are you just assuming responsibility for this relationship? If the ISFJ has complained and asked for help than she needs to look at her own co-dependency tendency and/or stop taking on the problems of the ESTP. If it's a case of your assuming responsibility for the relationship, it' s not your place to interfere, unless there is real quantifiable harm occurring.

 

[JustHer]

The important question is: has the ISFJ complained and asked for help or are you just assuming responsibility for this relationship? If the ISFJ has complained and asked for help than she needs to look at her own co-dependency tendency and/or stop taking on the problems of the ESTP. If it's a case of your assuming responsibility for the relationship, it' s not your place to interfere, unless there is real quantifiable harm occurring.

Nope the ISFJ has not asked for help. I disagree about interfering, when your family members are in pain you don't just sit by and do nothing

How old is the ESTP?

About 25!

 

[JustHer]

have you tried working with ESTP on a case by case basis as it is happening?

Not yet, but that is probably what I am going to have to try. Is this how ESTPs learn?

 

[sLiPpY]

Sorry, I should have provided more details!

Basically the case is that a slightly emotionally unhealthy ISFJ is constantly taking on and absorbing the problems of the ESTP. The ESTP is sort of taking advantage, asking the ISFJ to do things for them all the time, and as a result the ISFJ becomes overly stressed and nervous all the time.

The problem is that its a family relation and the ISFJ will ALWAYS worry about the ESTP's problems, so expecting that to change is unrealistic.



This is pretty much the argument here. The ESTP is focused on the fact that they should be able to express themselves how they want and also on the fact that the ISFJ doesn't have to do things for them if they dont want to. This makes perfect sense, but doesn't change the fact that the person who constantly suffers from this (and on a very deep level) is the ISFJ who cares about them.

How do I get the ESTP to think beyond their own self interests and actually seriously try to change to avoid hurting someone that loves them?

Sounds like the ISFJ has boundary issues THEY need to work on.

That is NOT the ESTP's responsibility.

 

[Charmed Justice]

Some people complain about what they do for others, but they really enjoy having people be dependent on them, even if it's unhealthy. Codependency. Enmeshment gives the parent a lasting power over the adult child, while at the same time, making them appear like the good saint.

 

[JustHer]

Sounds like the ISFJ has boundary issues THEY need to work on.

That is NOT the ESTP's responsibility.

See this is the kind of ridiculous attitude that the ESTP is taking on. I am trying to get her to understand the bigger picture.

Yes, it makes perfect sense. She should be able to say what she wants without worrying about how it will affect someone else. However, this is not how things actually work. This does not CHANGE the fact that she is hurting someone who loves her. This does not change the fact that a small change in her attitude can make a huge difference to someone's emotional well being.

I am trying to get her to think BEYOND HERSELF and consider someone else. I am trying to get her to put her ego aside here. Nothing is going to get better if she doesn't even try.

 

[Amargith]

See this is the kind of ridiculous attitude that the ESTP is taking on. I am trying to get her to understand the bigger picture.

Yes, it makes perfect sense. She should be able to say what she wants without worrying about how it will affect someone else. However, this is not how things actually work. This does not CHANGE the fact that she is hurting someone who loves her. This does not change the fact that a small change in her attitude can make a huge difference to someone's emotional well being.

I am trying to get her to think BEYOND HERSELF and consider someone else. I am trying to get her to put her ego aside here. Nothing is going to get better if she doesn't even try.

Sooo, don't ESTPs share this need of protecting those they love and they consider weaker with ENTJs? Is there any way that this ESTP could love the ISFJ enough to want to protect her? And then the question becomes, can she see the harm she's inflicting, and therefore realize that what she needs to do is protect the ISFJ from herself (both the ESTP and the ISFJ's tendencies)

 

[McRumi]

Sounds like the ISFJ has boundary issues THEY need to work on.

That is NOT the ESTP's responsibility.

Exactly. Very, very exactly.

 

[McRumi]

Sooo, don't ESTPs share this need of protecting those they love and they consider weaker with ENTJs? Is there any way that this ESTP could love the ISFJ enough to want to protect her? And then the question becomes, can she see the harm she's inflicting, and therefore realize that what she needs to do is protect the ISFJ from herself (both the ESTP and the ISFJ's tendencies)

STPs believe that the best way to protect others is to help them become more self-sufficient and thus self-protective. STPs are not and will never be caretakers. ISFJs on the other hand can and should learn to establish boundaries. Nevertheless, many ISFJs do take great pleasure in being needed.

However, if there is some real physical or material harm occurring, the STP should be confronted directly and all steps should be taken to stop any such harm.

 

[Amargith]

Hmm, that's contradictory to what I've heard so far...interesting.

 

[McRumi]

Hmm, that's contradictory to what I've heard so far...interesting.

in what way?

 

[Amargith]

in what way?

I've talked to some STPs here and there and they all seem to share this very protective nature over those they care for. Sure, they will teach them how to be self-reliant, and no they won't always be doing stuff for others, but they will very much be careful not to harm those they care for themselves or let harm come to them through other sources. Often because they feel they can take a lot more than the people around them, will they almost function as a shield when needed. I was always pleasantly surprised by the respect they had for those they perceived as more frail than themselves because those people ultimately gave them something else back in return that they themselves really valued as well.

 

[Halla74]

Nope the ISFJ has not asked for help. I disagree about interfering, when your family members are in pain you don't just sit by and do nothing

I agree with you here, but also must inform you that I've fought similar battles in the past, and in reality, there is only so much you can do. So, make your case, intervene a reasonable amount, and then remove yourself from the scene, as your knight in shining armour routine could quickly turn into a "meddling outsider" performance. Use disgression in realizing your personal values, it's not all about you.

About 25!

A 25 year old ESTP? You're screwed, dude. Good luck!

Not yet, but that is probably what I am going to have to try. Is this how ESTPs learn?

Yes, we learn by example, by doing, if we give a shit what the lesson is about. It's one thing to understand how this person will learn the details of your case, it's quite another getting them to agree with you if they do not when you make your case.

Sounds like the ISFJ has boundary issues THEY need to work on.

That is NOT the ESTP's responsibility.

I agree completely with the above statement. At least 50% of your battle is with the ISFJ. Good luck in convincing someone with co-dependency issues and what appears to be a generalized lack of assertiveness to change their ways and get into "tough love" with the ESTP. That's an uphill battle on a slippery slope my friend...

Some people complain about what they do for others, but they really enjoy having people be dependent on them, even if it's unhealthy. Codependency. Enmeshment gives the parent a lasting power over the adult child, while at the same time, making them appear like the good saint.

Yup, that's how it seems to make sense to those that practice that dysfunction.

See this is the kind of ridiculous attitude that the ESTP is taking on. I am trying to get her to understand the bigger picture.

Yes, it makes perfect sense. She should be able to say what she wants without worrying about how it will affect someone else. However, this is not how things actually work. This does not CHANGE the fact that she is hurting someone who loves her. This does not change the fact that a small change in her attitude can make a huge difference to someone's emotional well being.

I am trying to get her to think BEYOND HERSELF and consider someone else. I am trying to get her to put her ego aside here. Nothing is going to get better if she doesn't even try.

If all your work is on the ESTP, and you make no ground with the ISFJ, then you have accomplished nothing. Even if you get the ESTP to totally change their ways and neutralize whatever dependency they are encouraging from the ISFJ, I guarantee you that the ISFJ will look for NEW ways to make the ESTP co-dependent. This is not a fixed case scenario. It is a living, breathing dysfunction that will grow and change as life circumstances change over time. The disorder will be CREATE life circumstances to support itself if none exist naturally in the relationship between the two parties.

Police officers will tell you that the most dangerous calls to respond to are those of domestic violence. Man hits woman, woman calls cops, cops beat man down and arrest him, woman breaks lamp over cops' heads. You are voluntarily getting yourself into a situation that might ultimately get you nothing but wasted time, frustration, heartache, and the resentment of the two you are trying to "help" (aka exert your schema of how things should be betweixt them).

I am totally not being an ass-hat about this, I completely understand your motivations in getting involved as a means to help your loved one, but caution you that there is alot of variability in individual people, and in this case you are dealing with 2 individuals AND a third party: the relationship between the two. So, you have two independent variables (the folks) and 1 dependent variable (the relationship). Where do you start?

Good luck, be careful, and don't let yourself get so consumed by this that you end up being co-dependent on their well being to the detriment of your own. Take it easy fella'!

BTW, bacon + cream cheese + jalapenos in the refrigerator, will be cooked up tomorrow night.

 

[Amargith]

Halla, but wouldn't getting the ESTP to back of for a while, create the chance to destress the ISFJ and then work on her?

 

[McRumi]

I've talked to some STPs here and there and they all seem to share this very protective nature over those they care for. Sure, they will teach them how to be self-reliant, and no they won't always be doing stuff for others, but they will very much be careful not to harm those they care for themselves or let harm come to them through other sources. Often because they feel they can take a lot more than the people around them, will they almost function as a shield when needed. I was always pleasantly surprised by the respect they had for those they perceived as more frail than themselves because those people ultimately gave them something else back in return that they themselves really valued as well.

Yes, I agree with that. But the sense of protectiveness is definitely more along the lines of helping others to help themselves. Anything more would compromise their need for an open field of action. Their generosity, espirit de corps and troubleshooting skills make them naturally protective...at an emotional if not physical distance.

 

[JustHer]

Thank you all for replies

Yes the ISFJ is definitely unhealthy and is trying to work on it but this comes from decades worth of abuse and ultimately I don't think this is something that they will ever be able to truly overcome.

Halla, but wouldn't getting the ESTP to back of for a while, create the chance to destress the ISFJ and then work on her?

This is precisely what I would like to do. I just want to get the ESTP to hold off on some of the negativity and problems to give the ISFJ a chance to work through some of their problems and regain a sense of self.

 

[McRumi]

Even if you get the ESTP to totally change their ways and neutralize whatever dependency they are encouraging from the ISFJ, I guarantee you that the ISFJ will look for NEW ways to make the ESTP co-dependent.

So true.

In fact I would bet that the real problem is between the ENTJ and the ESTP.

 

[Halla74]

Thank you all for replies

Yes the ISFJ is definitely unhealthy and is trying to work on it but this comes from decades worth of abuse and ultimately I don't think this is something that they will ever be able to truly overcome.

Heads up. My wife went through decades of abuse, terrible childhood all around. She's been fighting issues with anxiety for 10 years. She's made significant progress in only the last 2 years. The first 8 years essentially were trying to admit that she had the issue, trying out therapies/techniques that could potentially be effective, and then when they were not putting the recovery on the back burner until another year or so went by and a significant period of anxiety compelled her to move forward again. There's alot more to do in the situation you are describing than you are capable of, just from the standpoint of time alone. Just be cognizant of that when you start to try and measure the efficacy of your efforts...

This is precisely what I would like to do. I just want to get the ESTP to hold off on some of the negativity and problems to give the ISFJ a chance to work through some of their problems and regain a sense of self.

That's totally cool of you to want to set the stage, just remember it will only happen if both parties agree that there is a problem, agree on what the immediate triggers are, agree to cease committing those actions, allow the ISFJ to enter therapy and guarantee that the ISFJ will not quit therapy, nor the ESTP will not quit ceasing their "trigger" actions until the problems are totally resolved. That is the crux of the issue, based on my personal experience. I wish you and them all luck, seriously. Give it a go, but realize that there is only so much you can do. People change when they WANT to, and that's not always when they NEED to for their own good...