The Scam of the MBTI Trance

[Frank]

Yes, our job was to improve the productivity of the Leyland assembly line.

We tried all kinds of things but what we noticed was that any change at all improved the productivity of the assembly line.

Of course at first we were looking for some specific change that would improve productivity, but it turned out there was no specific change, it was change itself.

So I wonder, is it a particular perspective that produces improvement, or is it the shifting of perspectives itself that produces the improvement.

For if it is the shifting itself, it doesn't matter what perspective you adopt.

And in fact any perspective will produce confirmation bias, or a false positive, just like astrology or MBTI.

That just tells you the line had a shitty system from the jump. I don't think it really relates.

 

[simulatedworld]

Recent studies show Victor's martini intake has increased 218% in the last three days.

 

[Edgar]

Ok Splittet, I took the test from greed's link.

My question to you, how is it better than MBTI? It tells me nothing more than the direct information that I've put in it (i.e. Do you like apples? Yes? Then you are a fruit-eating person).

The thing that is remarkable about MBTI is that it creates a bigger picture out of the separate pieces of information that on the first look do not seem to have any relation to each other. For example, the description of an INTJ goes beyond just saying "an introverted person who is scheduled and thinks in an abstract manner".

So how is Big Five a "digital clock" compared to a "sun dial" MBTI?

What am I missing here?

 

[Splittet]

Ok Splittet, I took the test from greed's link.

My question to you, how is it better than MBTI? It tells me nothing more than the direct information that I've put in it (i.e. Do you like apples? Yes? Then you are a fruit-eating person).

The thing that is remarkable about MBTI is that it creates a bigger picture out of the separate pieces of information that on the first look do not seem to have any relation to each other. For example, the description of an INTJ goes beyond just saying "an introverted person who is scheduled and thinks in an abstract manner".

So how is Big Five a "digital clock" compared to a "sun dial" MBTI?

What am I missing here?

Because it's based on sound, scientific methods - not some crazy theory from the 1920s with no proof going for it.

 

[Mole]

Recent studies show Victor's martini intake has increased 218% in the last three days.

God knows I need it.

 

[garbage]

My question to you, how is it better than MBTI? It tells me nothing more than the direct information that I've put in it (i.e. Do you like apples? Yes? Then you are a fruit-eating person).

The thing that is remarkable about MBTI is that it creates a bigger picture out of the separate pieces of information that on the first look do not seem to have any relation to each other. For example, the description of an INTJ goes beyond just saying "an introverted person who is scheduled and thinks in an abstract manner".

I can't find much about personality descriptions that are extrapolated from one's Big 5 scores, but does this (or any of the others) describe you in better detail? Mine seems to describe me pretty well; it's like a "mashup" of ENFP and ENTJ that would describe me better than either of those descriptions do alone.

This is not to say that MBTI is necessarily a bad test because one SLOAN category fits me better than one MBTI category, but it seems to do a better job of fitting me. Others have reported that their Big 5 scores don't seem to describe them well at all.


Regarding the Neuroticism component in MBTI, people here often describe "healthy" and "unhealthy" versions of a given type. I'd venture to say that that is typically how Neuroticism is handled by those who use MBTI in the personal realm.

I'm just not sure whether Neuroticism has a place in the MBTI for most purposes, since it sees most of its use in the business domain (despite whether or not it was actually intended for that purpose). You're not exactly going to want to go through a MBTI workshop in your business as a way to understand differing perceptions and then include Neuroticism as a factor; it would pretty much defeat the purpose of the message that "all points of view have merit" that promotes harmony in the business environment. It's not scientific, but, for the business environment and for what it should be trying to do there, it doesn't have to be. Take MBTI much further, however, and it's outside of the domain that it can reliably handle.

And don't even get me started on all of the ground that Socionics tries and fails to cover. It's even worse than MBTI in that respect.

To that end, taken too seriously, MBTI can almost be likened to The Secret. Positive thinking is great and all, and it's a good message to teach. However, trying to give credence to the underlying "science" underneath it.. yeah, it kind of destroys the beneficial message if one can't trust the science, no matter how true that message is.

Luckily, few people who use MBTI where it is strong (in the business environment, in some workshop) get into its underlying science and, effectively, just teach its message.

I will say that it can be useful to collect and group behaviors and attitudes in terms of cognitive functions ("that's a Fi attitude"), but, as a concept that can't be falsified or scientifically tested, those functions probably shouldn't be used at a scientific level--that is, explaining one's cognition.

That said, I've recently tended to describe people in my own mind in terms of the Big 5 where I used to do so with the MBTI, but I do mentally collect behaviors in terms of Jungian cognitive functions. It's just.. more useful and beneficial to me that way.

 

[Eric B]

I don't see how you can assert that there are only "moderate correlations" between Agreeableness and Feeling, or Conscientiousness and Judging, etc.--they seem to me to be effectively the same concept.

This thing has correlations between MBTI traits and Big 5 traits. For the most part, the factors line up, but Judging is related to Conscientiousness and Openness.. true to the typical description of Judging.

I agree with you. (For once.)
There is plenty of research on the net that equates high A with MBTI's F,
and high C with MBTI's J.
This is not news here, fellas.

I would say Agreeableness would more closely correspond to Keirsey-Berens'
"[Role-]Informative"/(-Directive) --on the Interaction Styles model, and Conscientiousness would correspond to Keirsey's "Cooperative/Pragmatic" on the temperament model. And both factors are based on both J/P and T/F, but switch according to S/N. For S's, Agreebleness is T/F, and Conscientiousness is J/P. But for N's it reverses.

The factor analysis between FFM and MBTI had been done with the MBTI dichotomies, while Keirsey and Berens' cross factors had apparently not been recognized for consideration.

I can't find much about personality descriptions that are extrapolated from one's Big 5 scores, but does this (or any of the others) describe you in better detail? Mine seems to describe me pretty well; it's like a "mashup" of ENFP and ENTJ that would describe me better than either of those descriptions do alone.

SCOAI would correspond to ENFJ. (S=E; O=J; A=F and I=N). But then that is in some ways sort of a mashup between ENFP and ENTJ. It's NF like ENFP, and NJ (and In Charge Interaction style) like ENTJ.

 

[garbage]

I would say Agreeableness would more closely correspond to Keirsey-Berens'
"[Role-]Informative"/(-Directive) --on the Interaction Styles model, and Conscientiousness would correspond to Keirsey's "Cooperative/Pragmatic" on the temperament model. And both factors are based on both J/P and T/F, but switch according to S/N. For S's, Agreebleness is T/F, and Conscientiousness is J/P. But for N's it reverses.

The factor analysis between FFM and MBTI had been done with the MBTI dichotomies, while Keirsey and Berens' cross factors had apparently not been recognized for consideration.

I'll have to read up some more on this. But I think I like it.

SCOAI would correspond to ENFJ. (S=E; O=J; A=F and I=N). But then that is in some ways sort of a mashup between ENFP and ENTJ. It's NF like ENFP, and NJ (and In Charge Interaction style) like ENTJ.

Haha, I think you and I have had a conversation somewhat along these lines, but I'll go for it here anyway since it's relevant. I'm going to come from personal experience with the system and then generalize from there.

I have thought a lot about ENFJ, too. I've certainly heard of ENFJ correlating to (or matching up with) SCOAI, and I've typed as ENFJ, too, especially recently. And taken as pure dichotomies (E/I, S/N.. ), it makes a lot of sense. After all, I came to this board as ESFJ doh and "found" ENTJ again.. and now look where I am. And the description of the interaction styles for ENFJ that you gave also matches me to a decent degree.

But then, cognitive functions enter the picture. Bad. MBTI tells me that I have Extraverted Feeling as a dominant function, which, as a collection of behaviors, is among the functions I care about and exercise the least; however, it does describe my ENFJ friend fairly well. Introverted Feeling suits me much, much better, whereas.. well, he has almost no sense of empathy, which is often attributed to Fi, whatsoever. (But then, he's also pretty neurotic and somewhat unhealthy, so it's likely not an issue of type.)

(That said, I've thought that ENFJ fits me in pretty much every sense except for cognitive function order.. which is a pretty big deal. I'd describe myself as "ENFJ without the Fe" if it didn't make heads explode. )

And then you get descriptions like this for the inferior:

Introverted Thinking is least apparent and most enigmatic in this type. In fact, it often appears only when summoned by Feeling. At times only in jest, but in earnest if need be, Thinking entertains as logical only those conclusions which support Feeling's values. Other scenarios can be shown invalid or at best significantly inferior. Such "Thinking in the service of Feeling" has the appearance of logic, but somehow it never quite adds up.

As someone who's studying computer science, I should be failing out of my major.

Which leads to another point.

In this way, in many descriptions, Socionics and MBTI seem to inhibit personal growth at some level. ENFPs aren't suited to use logic, INTJs can never understand people on a natural level, and so on.

And our type preferences apparently never change, so we're "locked in" to our weaknesses. And, sure, a ENFP can learn Te, but, "Less mature and lacking the polish of higher order functions, Thinking is not well suited to be used as a prominent function."

What?

Or maybe it's my horrible, horrible Ti that can't make sense of these models


Incidentally, I'm quite surprised that F doesn't correlate to Neuroticism.

 

[Eric B]

Actually, most models using four functions only will make the inferior function seem like the weakest. But in the eight function model, that's still higher than the unused ones, which would be number 5-8, and considered the true "shadow". Of course, I have just started looking into both Lenore Thomson and Socionics who claim that the inferior is the weakest, and the 7th and 8th are sort of "alternatives" to the dom. and auxiliary. I think a lot of this may vary according to the person and their experiences.

So if you're saying your Ti is good, then an ENFJ's inferior (which he "aspires" to) is conceivably going to be better or more trusted than that for an ENFP, for whom it is 7th place and "deceiving" (usually avoided, but sometimes brought out to trap others, or for comedic relief). However, for the ENFP, it might also be the right-brain alternative to the auxiliary Fi in cases where Fi could not solve the problem. So it is a matter of sorting out how you have used it.

Also, as far as "empathy", both Feeling functions can be associated with that. Sometimes, a distinction is made of Fi being empathic (taking in the other person's suffering), and Fe being sympathetic (suffering with). But that can still be really ambiguous.

 

[Edgar]

I can't find much about personality descriptions that are extrapolated from one's Big 5 scores, but does this (or any of the others) describe you in better detail? Mine seems to describe me pretty well; it's like a "mashup" of ENFP and ENTJ that would describe me better than either of those descriptions do alone.

That "mashup" doesn't really reveal anything new because all it does is gives my answers back to me in an abridged version. As I told Splittet, the results do not inform me of anything that simple self awareness wouldn't tell me.

Just for the record, I don't follow socionics or cognitive functions - both of those are too hoaky for my taste.

You've mentioned that "neuroticism" factor of the test measures "healthy and unhealthy" types of the same personality. Eve De Lunas came up with some really good theories related to unhealthy behavior of different types (within MBTI). The book's name is Survival Games Personalities Play. Pretty much everyone I recommend that book to told me they were impressed with its accuracy.

 

[garbage]

That "mashup" doesn't really reveal anything new because all it does is gives my answers back to me in an abridged version. As I told Splittet, the results do not inform me of anything that simple self awareness wouldn't tell me.

Certainly. MBTI leads to discussions such as this thing; I'd love to see if Big 5 has ever been used in this way.

Unfortunately, some of these extrapolated descriptions can be correct, and some can be incorrect; some have overlap, and some are only be deemed "correct" through confirmation bias or the Forer effect.

I suppose, then, it's up to the individual to choose the tools and type descriptions that work best for him.

Just for the record, I don't follow socionics or cognitive functions - both of those are too hoaky for my taste.

Yeah. If I find a way to make sense of them and perhaps incorporate them into a better subjective mental model, I'll do so. For right now, though, I'm choosing to leave them out.

You've mentioned that "neuroticism" factor of the test measures "healthy and unhealthy" types of the same personality. Eve De Lunas came up with some really good theories related to unhealthy behavior of different types (within MBTI). The book's name is Survival Games Personalities Play. Pretty much everyone I recommend that book to told me they were impressed with its accuracy.

Another book to check out.. I'll have to give this one a read. Thanks!

 

[Synapse]

The scam of the MBTI trance

is like a hot cross bun with honey mustard sauce
is like a bunch of saffron flowers nestled amongst the bees
is like a fluffy pillow filled with albatross feathers
is like a rock rolling along the lawn mowers path
is like a tapioca cake topped with marshmallows

is the scam of TV trance charming
is the scam of the internet like radioactive isotopes
is the scam of car breaking down cheaper, is the scam of a trolley wheel falling off sexier?

who knows, people like to invent whatever meaning gets their kit off
i really want some merchandise with that
where's the MBTI real estate section, prime lands selling like hot cakes

 

[Jaguar]

The scam of the MBTI trance

is like a hot cross bun with honey mustard sauce
is like a bunch of saffron flowers nestled amongst the bees
is like a fluffy pillow filled with albatross feathers
is like a rock rolling along the lawn mowers path
is like a tapioca cake topped with marshmallows

is the scam of TV trance charming
is the scam of the internet like radioactive isotopes
is the scam of car breaking down cheaper, is the scam of a trolley wheel falling off sexier?

The Scam Of The MBTI Trance.
We should stick that in the poetry section.

This old thread is pretty funny. Classic Victor.

 

[Cygnus]

Any repetition can induce a trance.

Advertising takes advantage of this and keeps repeating ads over and over again - and it works - billions of dollars every year are spent on just this kind of advertising.

And propaganda takes similar advantage of repetition to induce a trance.

But why do advertising and propaganda wish to put us in a trance?

And the answer is because in a trance our critical faculties go to sleep and we are susceptible to the suggestions of the advertisers and the propagandists.

And that is why MBTI is repeated over and over again here. And it is so lovingly repeated because the sheer repetition puts us into an uncritical trance.

And it is this uncritical trance that is so beloved by the scamsters.

And we have here office bearers of this site who have been repeating MBTI over and over again for many years.

And every now and then they reveal their spite towards anyone who seeks to wake us up from the MBTI trance.

But they are relentless because they themselves are in a deep trance, and deeply and profoundly resent anyone trying to wake them up.

And, incidentally, the best way to put someone in a trance is to enter a trance yourself. And the only better way to put someone in a trance is to put the group in a trance first and then the individual follows along. And that is just what happen here.

But the price you pay for the MBTI trance, for the MBTI scam, is your self respect.

But the beauty of it is, that in a trance, you don't notice the loss.

Then what are you doing on MBTI forum?

 

[ndovjtjcaqidthi]

Then what are you doing on MBTI forum?

Because typologycentral is a tolerant and well run site that allows Mole to think critically about Carl Jung and MBTI.

 

[Cygnus]

Of course we always have reasons for what we do - otherwise we would be unreasonable or have no reason for what we do.

But no matter what the reason, in advertisements or propaganda or MBTI, it is the repetition that matters - because any repetition can induce a trance.

And repetition done in company, as we do here, can induce a profound trance from which it is difficult and even painful to awaken from.

O rly?

 

[Mole]

Then what are you doing on MBTI forum?

I was invited here by Geoff who told me this is a tolerant and well run site, and it is. But he told me nothing about mbti. I had to discover mbti all by myself.

And naturally I applied critical thinking to mbti.

And critical thinking tends to wake members from the trance of mbti, and they don't like to be woken.

 

[Cygnus]

People, seriously, it's only a tool, like any other.

Just like you can't use a hammer, a wrench, or any other tool to fix everything, you can't use MBTI as a fix-all either.

Use your brains....

If you use it excessively, it will only result in crap.

Used properly, it can be very enlightening along a path of self-discovery and self-improvement.

You're putting more and more spaces between your lines of text. I'm worried Mole's dialogue's got to ya.

 

[Cygnus]

God knows I need it.

No dude you don't lululululz you don' t needs. moar lickour. mOar liqour wood be bad for you. mommy no want you pas to have any more liquor. El no drinko liquoro. El understando? liquor maek you drunk and angry



btw wind in tje willows sucks

 

[garbage]

Good job resurrecting a very, very dead thread just to shit all over it!