P v J Perspectives

[Sentura]

didn't you understand what i was trying to explain to you?

 

[BlackCat]

I'm exactly like that linguist. I know I'm not a J because I can't relate to the INFJ functions... nor am I uncomfortable with leaving things open ended. So there. I'm fine with making things decided, while being able to change it at any time. I'm also borderline.

you didn't understand what i wrote?

I felt no obligation to respond because that's not really how I felt about it at all... Totally misjudged me.

 

[Little Linguist]

I'm exactly like that linguist. I know I'm not a J because I can't relate to the INFJ functions... nor am I uncomfortable with leaving things open ended. So there. I'm fine with making things decided, while being able to change it at any time. I'm also borderline.



I felt no obligation to respond because that's not really how I felt about it at all... Totally misjudged me.

YAY, someone feels the same way! So you understand what I mean, then. Oh good, I was starting to think "Whoa. You're crazy. Or at least silly. Or at the very least - relatively odd."

 

[BlackCat]

YAY, someone feels the same way! So you understand what I mean, then. Oh good, I was starting to think "Whoa. You're crazy. Or at least silly. Or at the very least - relatively odd."

Yep I sure do. It's nice having a balance in my opinion.

 

[juggernaut]

Answer: Two reasons.

A) I have always wanted to do it. I knew it. I did it. (Finalized - J)

B) If it hadn't worked, I could have returned to the USA with little or no problems or concerns, and be right back where I started. Win-win situation (open - P).

That's a huge-ass decision: moving to a new country. So yeah, I guess both.

Interesting, interesting! I'm getting ready to make a similar move, in about 2.5 months. I think the difference between P and J here is:

A) I have always wanted to do it. I knew it. I did it. (Finalized - J)

B) There is no B. (Finalized - J)

 

[Sentura]

I'm exactly like that linguist. I know I'm not a J because I can't relate to the INFJ functions... nor am I uncomfortable with leaving things open ended. So there. I'm fine with making things decided, while being able to change it at any time. I'm also borderline.



I felt no obligation to respond because that's not really how I felt about it at all... Totally misjudged me.

eh, i don't think so. what you explain in the post above is exactly what you said before. i'm pretty sure that all you look at is the functions and their order.

in my example i will use myself. i consider myself an ENXP. why? because i have a high Ti as well as a high Fi. those two functions do not go together under one type; rather, they are from different types. you say that because a function order does not exist in the MBTI, there cannot exist a person with that function order. i'm saying that you cannot prove that. incidentally, i just proved you wrong because i am between types. you are, however, reluctant to accept this because of some sort of blocking, presumably by a S function.

 

[Azseroffs]

oh yes you did, you made it sound like it was, ah, ridiculous to even consider being something else than the MBTI archetypes.

function orders aren't complete either; it may be very well that there are function orders which do not fit into any of the 16 archetypes. since the proof of claim rests of the plaintiff, i'd like to you to prove that there are only those function orders that the MBTI suggests.

here's a hint: you can't, because proofs of this nature are empirical.

I don't have any proof, but it makes sense to put the functions in the order they are. Not because of function strength, it's because of function use. Each type has a purpose for their function depending on what slot it holds.

For example it is highly unlikely that a stressed out INTP will want to go to a social event. As such a thing is completely uncharacteristic of TiSi. I'm not claiming it is impossible, but you show me someone who claims to be INTP and wants to go to social event while their stressed out.

in my example i will use myself. i consider myself an ENXP. why? because i have a high Ti as well as a high Fi. those two functions do not go together under one type; rather, they are from different types. you say that because a function order does not exist in the MBTI, there cannot exist a person with that function order. i'm saying that you cannot prove that. incidentally, i just proved you wrong because i am between types. you are, however, reluctant to accept this because of some sort of blocking, presumably by a S function.

again, it is function use, not function strength that determines function order.

 

[BlackCat]

eh, i don't think so. what you explain in the post above is exactly what you said before. i'm pretty sure that all you look at is the functions and their order.

in my example i will use myself. i consider myself an ENXP. why? because i have a high Ti as well as a high Fi. those two functions do not go together under one type; rather, they are from different types. you say that because a function order does not exist in the MBTI, there cannot exist a person with that function order. i'm saying that you cannot prove that. incidentally, i just proved you wrong because i am between types. you are, however, reluctant to accept this because of some sort of blocking, presumably by a S function.

The thing is, it doesn't matter about the function strengths, just about their uses. I have a strong Te, but I am still an INFP. The order of the INFP makes sense to me, how each one fits in, etc. You're going to end up using Ti or Fi primarily. Functions can work together to imitate others, which may be why your Ti and Fi are so high.

Apparently from the books I've read Ti and Fi are in the same sections of the brain, making them impossible to use at the same time. If you're an ENTP your Fi simulation may come from the values that make the most sense to you, and having them incorporated as a fact within you (Ti). ENTPs, when they get in touch with Fe, will have empathy, and may as a result gain some values as to how people should be treated etc (I'm no expert on ENTPs, but you get my point). A lot of the time Ti is grossly misunderstood, as well as Fi. You may want to look up some definitions. Here is a great definition of Ti on the forum. http://www.typologycentral.com/foru...-duper-typology-overview-doom.html#post603900

If I went by what you're going by to determine that you're an ENXP, I'd be an XXXX, simply because I'm borderline on all preferences. It really just doesn't work that way. On the tests you've taken I score 0-10% on everything. That doesn't make me an XXXX.

 

[Quinlan]

I just see MBTI as reasoning for acting the way we do, but it isn't good for describing how someone perceives the world. Often they are strongly related, but they can be different. This is difference between socionics and MBTI imo.

For example someone may act strongly T, and they would even type them self as T. But, they may see those who act strongly T in situations that require F as insulting or even disgusting even if they themselves didn't know how to handle the situation in an F way.

I think we all agree that there are times for each dichotomy, but your mental processes effect how you view the world and to what extent you can go overboard with a dichotomy. How you behave may not always reflect that in an obvious way.

I think of MBTI as useful for examining your own internal processes but it's very limited when it comes to understanding and predicting behaviour because there are so many other factors outside of MBTI that influence and override natural behaviour. That's why I tend tend to be very cautious when typing people because I know that behaving like a certain type is different from being that type.

 

[Little Linguist]

Interesting, interesting! I'm getting ready to make a similar move, in about 2.5 months. I think the difference between P and J here is:

A) I have always wanted to do it. I knew it. I did it. (Finalized - J)

B) There is no B. (Finalized - J)

Really? Awesome! Kudos to you!

Hey, wow, cool - that was straight to the point and made sense.

Damn, I love you ENTJs...(wait, you are an ENTJ, right - have to go and check)

Oh good, you are...

 

[Azseroffs]

I think of MBTI as useful for examining your own internal processes but it's very limited when it comes to understanding and predicting behaviour because there are so many other factors outside of MBTI that influence and override natural behaviour. That's why I tend tend to be very cautious when typing people because I know that behaving like a certain type is different from being that type.

I think socionics is much better for self analysis, but I agree otherwise.

It just seems to me that MBTI focuses more on behavior in it's profile/dichotomy/function descriptions while socionics focuses on information processing.

 

[Sentura]

it should be noted that i didn't talk about function strength in my example, nor was such reference intended. it would be best explained as substitution between functions:

an ENTP would have:

Ne
Ti
Fe
Si

whereas an ENFP would have

Ne
Fi
Te
Si

for substitution, the auxiliary and tertiary function could be substituted for a different mindset, as you would have a switch. it would essentially mean that you could have two or more function orders completely independent of each other.

note that this is just one example of how it could happen. i personally keep an extremely open mind in regards to functions and their orders, as i don't think every function has a merit for existence.

 

[Azseroffs]

this thread has been seriously derailed.
trying to argue my point and still stay on topic:

it seems to me that most J types have a clear cut idea of long term goals.
It wouldn't make sense if a J type had Pe as one of it's top two functions(the most heavily used).
Pe is associated with going with the flow of sensual or intuitive information. Not really having a clear cut idea of how they connect. For this reason P types are indecisive.

Js would not be decisive if Je and Pi weren't they're top two, and Ps wouldn't be as free spirited if not for Pe and Ti as their top two.

Uncertainty of J/P means you have no idea how you behave. Which doesn't make sense assuming that a person has actually tried with some effort to figure out how they behave. Behavior to me is associated with function order. If function order was not the way it is spelled out by the types you have a very confusing person.

 

[Little Linguist]

this thread has been seriously derailed.
trying to ague my point and still stay on topic:

it seems to me that most J types have a clear cut idea of long term goals.
It wouldn't make sense if a J type had Pe as one of it's top two functions(the most heavily used).
Pe is associated with going with the flow of sensual or intuitive information. Not really having a clear cut idea of how they connect. For this reason P types are indecisive.

Js would not be decisive if Je and Pi weren't they're top two, and Ps wouldn't be as free spirited if not for Pe and Ti as their top two.

Uncertainty of J/P means you have no idea how you behave. Which doesn't make sense assuming that a person has actually tried with some effort to figure out how they behave.

I had an answer for you. The Reader's Digest Condensed Version is:

a) I think people can have both J and P tendencies.
b) I don't believe J and P are contradictory.
c) I think it's possible to be an X.
d) I'm not an X.
e) Uncertainty of J/P means you act differently in different circumstances 50/50 of the time.

 

[Azseroffs]

Of course, all people have tendencies towards the opposite. But everyone has a preference as well.

J/P are not contradictory what so ever. As with all dichotomies, it isn't one or the other it is an in between.

For someone to be X they would have to be perfectly in the middle or bipolar.

Everyone resorts to their primary functions in dire situations, but everyone is capable of using whatever function. Everyone acts differently in different situations. Its when someone acts completely differently 50/50 of the time in similar situations that constitutes an X, and if that is the case, it is very likely that they have a personality disorder.

 

[TaylorS]

The thing is, it doesn't matter about the function strengths, just about their uses. I have a strong Te, but I am still an INFP. The order of the INFP makes sense to me, how each one fits in, etc. You're going to end up using Ti or Fi primarily. Functions can work together to imitate others, which may be why your Ti and Fi are so high.

Apparently from the books I've read Ti and Fi are in the same sections of the brain, making them impossible to use at the same time. If you're an ENTP your Fi simulation may come from the values that make the most sense to you, and having them incorporated as a fact within you (Ti). ENTPs, when they get in touch with Fe, will have empathy, and may as a result gain some values as to how people should be treated etc (I'm no expert on ENTPs, but you get my point). A lot of the time Ti is grossly misunderstood, as well as Fi. You may want to look up some definitions. Here is a great definition of Ti on the forum. http://www.typologycentral.com/foru...-duper-typology-overview-doom.html#post603900

If I went by what you're going by to determine that you're an ENXP, I'd be an XXXX, simply because I'm borderline on all preferences. It really just doesn't work that way. On the tests you've taken I score 0-10% on everything. That doesn't make me an XXXX.

I posted in a thread a LONG time ago that I suspect that Ti and Fi are centered in the Dorsolateral Prefrontal Cortex while Te and Fe are centered in the Orbitofrontal and Ventromedial Prefrontal Cortex. Si and Ni are cented in the Temporal Association Cortex; and Se and Ne are centered in the Parietal Association Cortex