[NT] HELP ME CONSTRUCT AN ARGUMENT.

[Petite Etoile]

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[ThatsWhatHeSaid]

Best argument is that he's not mature enough and doesn't have the experience to determine what truly makes him happy. He says: but that's true of any relationship where the participants are immature. You respond: True, but the age disparity creates a relationship that is vulnerable to exploitation, which is an element that's absent in relationships where both parties have similar maturity and experience.

 

[Colors]

Who cares what your boyfriend thinks? Is *he* the woman dating a minor in another state?

What are you going to do about it?

 

[Petite Etoile]

Who cares what your boyfriend thinks? Is *he* the woman dating a minor in another state?

What are you going to do about it?

No no no, he's not dating anyone else lol.. i just care because i feel really strongly about this and i know if i could come up with a better argument he'd also agree with me.

 

[jenocyde]

I think that people should always be free to do whatever they want, provided they are aware of all the potential consequences. If and when I have children, I will prepare them with all the knowledge I can, that way if they choose to use heroin, it will be a well thought out choice knowing that the use of such a drug can, and most likely will, lead to abuse and destruction. You can't stop someone from doing what they want, but you must prepare them for the outcomes or else you have failed as a parent. Would you ever let a child skydive without a parachute?

That being said, how can a child at 14 possibly walk into a situation like that and fully know the potential outcome of stunted growth and emotional damage? Can a child of 14 (now 16) be truly aware of what it means to enter into an adult relationship? Having children, paying bills, being an emotional support system? When you think about life stages, this woman is entering a time where she will soon have dependents - children or aging parents. Meanwhile her "boyfriend" has not had experience or practice time to get up to speed - especially on the fluid concept of love. Does he truly love her, or is he fascinated by the attention? He will feel quickly overwhelmed, while she will be unfulfilled. She is robbing him of his youth in a desperate attempt to hold on to her own.

At the end of the day, "they" are not hurting anyone but she is definitely hurting him. Straddling him with unfair burdens at such a young age, to make up for her own emotional insecurities, is a tragedy. There must be a reason why she cannot identify with people in her own age group or maturity level. Abuse is a constant cycle, and whatever abuse she has suffered must not be passed on to the next generation. And this is abuse. A person of her age has mental capacities to convince a child of anything. She can persuade and coerce his fragile mind to accept her realities. His brain is not yet fully formed. It's like the emotional manifestation of Chinese foot binding. Everyone has the right to freedom, as your boyfriend says, but where is this young boy's freedom? This is pure exploitation.

I am not a stickler for rules, but I am die hard advocate against crimes toward children and the defenseless. My personal feeling is that you should do everything in your power to make that child's parents aware of the situation. I truly believe that it does take a village to raise a child. If you saw a car approaching a child, would you not pull the kid to safety?? I'm not getting on a moral high horse and I hope you don't feel like I am, I just urge you to think about this child being your child. How would you feel as a parent? We are not separate from the world outside, we live symbiotically.

Question: would your boyfriend see a problem if it was a 26 (now 28) year old man with a 14 (now 16) year old girl? Just because the genders are reversed, does not make it ok. The strongest point, however, is that it is against the law. For a damn good reason. Seriously, call his parents - who cares what your boyfriend says?

 

[Kalach]

i know someone who is a 28 year old woman dating a 16 year old boy in a different state. She claims they are in love and are soulmates and they've been dating almost 2 years but they waited to meet until he was of legal age of consent (thats what she says anyway).

YOU: hey, these guys are our friends, let's have them over for dinner; you and the kid can play X-Box.

ENTP: Great! [blah blah blah, and so on]

and after a while he works out for himself that it's stupid.

 

[Snow Turtle]

Doesn't sound like it'll be possible to win the arguement against your boyfriend. I'm more curious as to why you feel the need to do so.

With regards to the relationship.
It's not as if being in the situation will suddenly remove his capability to develop emotional/intellectual maturity. At what age would he suddenly understand so it'll be fine? Would it have changed if he was 17/18 and the women in her 30s?

 

[527468]

You feel its wrong, and he feels its up to the subject.

Fi vs Fe

Fe has a hard time understanding a personal value system in the first place, so it is pretty hard to get through to an ENTP about anything seriously ethical. I'm sure he doesn't care that much, so why is your goal to make him both care and agree with you? I'm sure there are better things you two can talk about, no offense.

Sorry I'm not helping that much.

I'm just saying, even if he did agree with you, he probably wouldn't care much. If he's showing any thought about it now, it's likely quite temporary. He's bound to agree with you if you become more emotional about it. But can't you see that it's really beside the point?

ENTPs are lawyers. That means any reality you throw at him will be twisted to aid his argument.

 

[Mort Belfry]

I agree with your boyfriend.

i think this will have a major impact on the child as he is not emotionally and psychology developed.

Have you asked the kid if he's happy? If you do and get anything short of a no then you have no business to intervene further.

And how do you think people get emotionally and psychologically developed in this way? It's through these relationships; so the girl he's "with" is ten years older than what would be normal; what difference does that really make? What if he's just plain not interested in girls of his age? Who is anyone to tell him he's wrong?

Just because the woman is stubborn, doesn't make it okay for people to just sit with their arms crossed because the couple is happy.

The couple's happy? What's the problem then? Apart from the fact it offends your sensibilities. As lemons said, this is Fi vs Fe. Benevolent Fe is helping people get what they want while Fi is wanting people to want what you want. Why should their relationship be affected by your values? In another time and place somebody could be trying to construct the same arguments against gay or interracial couples. These sentiments never last throughout the ages.

SO--- People who AGREE with me: what flaws can i find in his argument to make him see that there SHOULD be intervention

I realise that you made the words "agree" and "should" capital because you didn't want to hear opposing arguments so you can convince your boyfriend to believe what you believe, but he NEVER will. You cannot fault his logic unless the boy is totally non-consensual in the matter which it does not sound like he is.

And I really think maybe it should be your boyfriend who convinces you otherwise, just a thought.

 

[jenocyde]

Fe has a hard time understanding a personal value system in the first place, so it is pretty hard to get through to an ENTP about anything seriously ethical. I'm sure he doesn't care that much, so why is your goal to make him both care and agree with you? I'm sure there are better things you two can talk about, no offense.

Sorry, enough with the stereotypes. I'm an ENTP and you saw what I wrote above. We are not devoid of understanding personal value systems.

I agree with your boyfriend.
Have you asked the kid if he's happy? If you do and get anything short of a no then you have no business to intervene further.

I hope that you never see a grown man sniffing around your daughter when you have a child of your own. I'm pretty sure you'd be singing a different tune. But hey, as long as the kid is happy, right?

Parents should make sure kids are happy, but not at the expense of their safety. Period. That's the point of being a legal guardian.

With regards to the relationship.
It's not as if being in the situation will suddenly remove his capability to develop emotional/intellectual maturity. At what age would he suddenly understand so it'll be fine? Would it have changed if he was 17/18 and the women in her 30s?

The fact that it started almost 2 years prior, when the child was about 14, is what raises serious red flags. That's a high school freshman.

 

[527468]

Sorry, enough with the stereotypes. I'm an ENTP and you saw what I wrote above. We are not devoid of understanding personal value systems.

Yeah, but still.

 

[jenocyde]

Yeah, but still.

Yeah, that makes sense. Thanks for you input.

 

[tinkerbell]

This is a weird one, the fact they never met for 2 years suggests this is almost child abuse. A 26 year old with a 14 year old isn't right, and verges on pedophelia.

At 14 is not mature enough, no doubt she provides emotional security of a semi parent type figure rather than a girl friend.

your teen years are for exploring relationships in their wider context. The boy is missing out on vital growing experiences of relating and caring about someone who is a true mate.

She is the adult and is morally and legally in the wrong. More to the point, what is wrong with her that a teenager fullfils her - she has issues clearly.

Society gives rules which are acceptable to them mass, this is why the age of consent is what it is. Some cultures are more open minded but laws are created to protect the weaker party.

Can't really help with your argument.

Lis

 

[Snow Turtle]

The fact that it started almost 2 years prior, when the child was about 14, is what raises serious red flags. That's a high school freshman.

How did they meet?

Personally I don't think there's much wrong with the relationship during then. I've not heard much about emotional abuse from a strictly romantic relationship, most of the abuse/explotation problem is when sex is involved. These people waited until he was legal. Perhaps the boy should have been a little older before making the decision but he isn't void of emotional understanding, and besides all of this contributes to maturity. It's just not in a conventional way. It's still a pathway to growth though.

 

[jenocyde]

Personally I don't think there's much wrong with the relationship during then. I've not heard much about emotional abuse from a strictly romantic relationship, most of the abuse/explotation problem is when sex is involved. These people waited until he was legal. Perhaps the boy should have been a little older before making the decision but he isn't void of emotional understanding, and besides all of this contributes to maturity. It's just not in a conventional way. It's still a pathway to growth though.

I see it so differently. An adult can manipulate a child to do whatever, sex is not the point. What about that vicious mother that harassed a girl on myspace, pretending to be a young boy, leading to the girl's suicide? Ok, you can argue that the adult didn't kill her, but my point is that a child that age is easily manipulated and has no defenses against a person with a longer life experience. It's abuse. When they began communicating, the woman was about twice his age. Don't you remember those hormonal years, where everything was so confusing and urgent?

 

[Snow Turtle]

I see it so differently. An adult can manipulate a child to do whatever, sex is not the point. What about that vicious mother that harassed a girl on myspace, pretending to be a young boy, leading to the girl's suicide? Ok, you can argue that the adult didn't kill her, but my point is that a child that age is easily manipulated and has no defenses against a person with a longer life experience. It's abuse.

As callous as this may sound. However the girl herself was already suffering from emotional abuse from her family via lack of support. The harrassment from the other mother was additional but granted final pushing factor. I wouldn't say all responsibility falls on the faking mother.

That's like saying it's your fault completely if someone commits suicide, assuming you have a messy breakup. A child could have done what that mother did, it's just that the person so happened to be an adult in this case.

Besides it's hardly comparable. You're using an extreme case where the adult has an obvious hatred based agenda in comparison to one that is a loving based agenda. Although I suppose you'll always see the adult as exploiting the child, when it could have been genuine love for the child. We'll have to agree to disagree there.

When they began communicating, the woman was about twice his age. Don't you remember those hormonal years, where everything was so confusing and urgent?

Yes...
What about them? He'll still experience growth just not conventially. It's like saying: Children who were forced to work hard and become good at sports, while sacrificing other aspects of their life are being emotionally abused.

I doubt the teenage child is going to look back on this event and think "Oh my life was ruined. It's a loving stable relationship."

 

[LucrativeSid]

I'm sure there's plenty of worse things happening out there. Why the need to be morality police? I'm sure there's some 16 year olds out there who would be much better off having a 28 year old girlfriend than they would be getting abused by their parents, trying to kill themselves, or becoming addicted to heroin. So I say screw it. I'm not going to tear up about something like this. Maybe they will break up like most people do, or maybe they'll stay together and be happy long enough to give all the close minded people some more ways to make their own lives more complicated. Pain can come from anything in life, and that's not necessarily a bad thing.

 

[jenocyde]

As callous as this may sound. However the girl herself was already suffering from emotional abuse from her family via lack of support. The harrassment from the other mother was additional but granted final pushing factor. I wouldn't say all responsibility falls on the faking mother.

I never said that the mother forced the child to suicide, just illustrating what depths a fragile young mind can sink to at the hands of a manipulative adult. I agree about lack of family support, which is why I suggested that the child's parents be informed of this.

I doubt the teenage child is going to look back on this event and think "Oh my life was ruined. It's a loving stable relationship."

Don't know how stable or loving it is, but I can guess that he'll look back on it and will think it was creepy, at best. Again, would you feel this way if a 26 year old man formed a romantic relationship with a 14 year old girl? A kid barely out of junior high? Can you truly see nothing disturbing about that? And furthermore, this woman encouraging a child to sneak around and lie to his parents for 2 years is not responsible, healthy behavior for a normal adult. She clearly has mental issues and is clearly unstable. They catch people like this on television shows for a reason.

At the very least his parents should know about this (or any girlfriend), even if you don't think it's morally or legally wrong for the relationship to continue.

 

[jenocyde]

I actually know of a girl, who at 14, met a man on the internet in a chat room. He disclosed his true age (40), and they formed some sort of relationship which carried on for more than a year. The girl was truly in love. They decided to meet, at a motel, and they had sex. When the girl became pregnant, she had to tell her parents, who then freaked out. When all was said and done, the man was arrested, and it came out that he was an ex-convict (sexual predator) currently wanted in 2 states for the same damn thing. Even presented with this proof the girl stood by her man, claiming love. It wasn't until she saw the actual emails to the other girls, the same ones he sent her with only the names replaced, did she finally understand how she was manipulated and coerced. She ended up not having the baby, but does have a case of herpes to remind her constantly (and yes, she could've gotten that from another teen - age has nothing to do with it). She is 19 now and is still very scarred from this. But if you had asked her at 14 or 15 if she was happy, she would have said yes.

 

[dga]

i know someone who is a 28 year old woman dating a 16 year old boy in a different state.

niiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiice

lucky dude. i feel sorry for the chick when the guy graduates off to college and puts his late 20s romance toy behind him.

either that and they are both freakshows for waiting 2 years just to freaking meet, but i think the first will still hold in a couple years.