Prejudice against Sensors?

[yenom]

actually fighting a war requires some heavy Se, and reacting to uncertainities requires some heavy Ne. So I take back what I said.

 

[Colors]

May I talk about my feeeeelings for a second? Thank you. (Ahem)

It's quite a strange bittersweet feeling to be an SJ on this forum. You can palpate the hate that's for sure and that makes me want to cry baby Jesus tears because I like many of the Ns. However, there's also something curiously interesting and fascinating about being labeled "normal" and being on a forum full of people who claim to be so "different". It's sort of like being in that movie "Shaun of the Dead", there's only a few of us SJs and the zombie Ns just want to eat us. It's great. I don't know about the rest of you but I run through the forum sections with a shovel in hand.

Haven't gotten very far through the rather prolific-ness, but I just have to say this post is kind of genius, Hmm. I am totally socially awkward, and dammit, I kind of like sometimes being told I'm normal and feeling like some sort of social idiot savant.

This probably speaks to some sort of messed-up ego stuff in myself, but fuck it.

 

[pure_mercury]

intuition is held high regard in things veyond common knowledge, where experience is the only teacher. For instance like fighting in a war, gaining experience and reuse that experience into the war again. We can use napoleon as an example. some people just know hjow to fight wars without anyone teaching them.


It is also held high regard in art, problem solving, and book writing and where knowledge demands application in real life.
I don't really believe in intuition anyway, even though i scored high as an intuitive. I think intuitives think more about long term things as per day to day basis.

Interesting. I think that I think about the long term more than the average person (and, by extension, Sensor), but I also think about concrete details and ways to achieve what I want for it.

 

[simulatedworld]

Interesting. I think that I think about the long term more than the average person (and, by extension, Sensor), but I also think about concrete details and ways to achieve what I want for it.

Ahhh dude I just got your signature. Had to pronounce it out loud. Cute!

 

[heart]

intuition is held high regard in things veyond common knowledge, where experience is the only teacher. For instance like fighting in a war, gaining experience and reuse that experience into the war again. We can use napoleon as an example. some people just know hjow to fight wars without anyone teaching them.

How many generals does it take to fight a war? How many INFJ you want in the foxholes compared to how many guys with good strong Se skills?

 

[Qre:us]

How many generals does it take to fight a war? How many INFJ you want in the foxholes compared to how many guys with good strong Se skills?

Again, this is another classic example of misusing MBTI, and showing type prejudice. My bf is a senior officer in the army, and he rose to his ranks quite young to the accolades of his older colleagues, cuz he's just that damn smart with strategy and leadership. He's a major (newly crowned ), who is an engineer for the army, with specialization in tanks, a contingency planner, oh......and an INFJ. He just has an amazing grasp over his T. And, much respect from his subordinates. His motto, if I delegate a task, and I am not doing anything, then, hell ya, I'm working with the subordinates to get the task done. However, petty or dislikable the task. He's probably the most diplomatic, fair and motivating person I've met. And, even with his feeling mudding him up, he's still an ace at target practice and making split-second rational, strategic decisions without turning into . Paradox?

It's not that hard for a Feeler to access T, just like it isn't completely foreign for sensors to intuit as well. (and vice versa)

 

[Tigerlily]

It's not that hard for a Feeler to access T, just like it isn't completely foreign for sensors to intuit as well. (and vice versa)

this is true. not everyone's a big dummy! ;P

 

[Qre:us]

This same issues seems to come up time after time...

And, time after time, there's no resolution as the prejudice continues....

 

[BlackCat]

It's not that hard for a Feeler to access T, just like it isn't completely foreign for sensors to intuit as well. (and vice versa)

Heck no dude. Everyone knows feelers are incapable of logical reasoning, thinkers are incapable of feeling emotion, sensors can't intuit and don't have an imagination, and that intuitives are incapable of realizing the real world around them. Seriously, this is common knowledge.

 

[alicia91]

Damn, I'm like 51% Sensor and 49% N - so into the S-box I go! Love these open-minded Ns with their giant boxes.

Once again, interesting how the ones that are the most biased against S-types are barely out of childhood. Come back and tell us all about it when you are paying a mortgage, about to put a kid into college, pay the bills and cook dinner every night. Perhaps you will become more balanced over time?

My little SJ-rant of the day.

 

[Qre:us]

Probably so, unless you actually speak with the person and find out what internal values are the reasoning behind whatever opinion.

But, then you'd have to know enough about functions to be able to ascribe one (mix) to the information you've found out about the person. Right?

You got mixed between Si & Fi, and other instances. And, it's not just you, I can too (as my knowledge of functions is quite basic), and I'm going to guess that most of us on this board are the same. However, even with such rudimentary understanding, how do you, with intellectual integrity, go ahead and generalize with such confidence that you are correctly ascribing whatever you see in a person? And, then sit comfortably in your decision of summing up a person in such manner.

Heck, I'm at fault for ascribing a type to people in my life, who haven't seen an MBTI specialist to get their type, and I will ponder over the actions of that person, rising from my assumption of their type. There's holes to that method. But, as long as it's used for 'good', and not for negative othering, assuming bias about them due to whatever 'type' I've ascribed, I dunno, I can then still sleep at night.

You're right that an S-type person could have better N than an N-type. A brilliant ESTP is probably better at all of his functions than a mentally retarded ENTP.

Actually between two friends, where one has tested as an ENTJ (through her career counsellor) and the other, who I assume is an ISTP (the sensing is very apparent in him), the latter is the one to more likely go off in their own head/daydream than the ENTJ. And when he speaks, if I shed the layers of what he said, there's a lot of intuitive thoughts, he just likes to lay it out more concretely (how it applies to the here and now) when he finally decides on his contemplation.

But again, look at the posts on this thread. It's no coincidence that lots of Ns have a definite communication gap with Ss in general.

We had the most apparent disagreement thus far, it seems, on this thread. From one ENTP to another.

Like I was saying earlier, it's all about averages.

Even without labelling specific functions as the culprits behind particular situations, we can still get enough information so as to be useful by directly interviewing a person regarding his functional preferences. We may not be able to say, "He's acting this way in situation x because of function y", but we can say with a reasonable amount of certainty that, given appropriate self-descriptions, he tends to prefer either Sensing or iNtuition more often than the other...and that's all MBTI really seeks to do.

Don't disagree, I'm just letting you know how limited you become if you stay within MBTI when assessing a person, and to be especially carefully of the shortfalls of subscribing to MBTI if you take away anything 'negative' from a person due to assumptions held by MBTI function/type descriptions.

Awareness is the only weapon against assumptions.

 

[Qre:us]

Heck no dude. Everyone knows feelers are incapable of logical reasoning, thinkers are incapable of feeling emotion, sensors can't intuit and don't have an imagination, and that intuitives are incapable of realizing the real world around them. Seriously, this is common knowledge.

If we take seriously the prejudice thrown at the sensors, then it must mean intuitives are incapable of realizing the real world around them, and same with the thinking/feeling dichotomy, and pretty soon, this world then is populated by unbalanced messed up individuals, with the intuits banging into walls and falling over cliffs, while the sensors can't figure out how time moved from here & now, to...then. And feelers are just in the corner their eyes out while thinkers, even with their great skills, are left at this world around us. Yes! On, with the merits of such prejudice. It makes perfect sense in the real world.

 

[Night]

It's not that hard for a Feeler to access T, just like it isn't completely foreign for sensors to intuit as well. (and vice versa)

The difficulty is that the MBTI offers a binary classification model -- you're either x or y.

As each digit within the system is designed in opposition to its partner (an S prefers to concentrate on the concrete; an N would rather explore hypotheticals), the belief is embedded that your preference determines exclusive ability. As your example offers, it is reasonable to encounter an F who excels in T-related fields. While his cognitive ideal remains centered on the thoughtful exploration of emotion, his talent for thinking isn't necessarily compromised as a result.

This either/or fallacy seems to generate a lot of speculation and intellectual misdirection. People confuse Thinking with intellect; Feeling with wisdom. The MBTI is designed to unify would-be obstacles in communication by examining the different ways people decipher their world. It isn't a device offered to evaluate talent or psychological health.

 

["?"]

On the forum, Intuition is held in high regard, and there's many instances of looking down on Sensors. I understand that the forum has way more intuits than sensors, but, why this prejudice? What about sensing (and its typological defintion) that makes it seem 'less superior' to intuition (as per the commentaries on this board)?

Wow and you just started this thread yesterday! It seems quite simple that people base their prejudices here as someone would in the real world, mere ignorance of type principles. It doesn't take long to know the lack of knowledge which many times comes out in the subjects being discussed, i.e., type rarity, Ne being similar to Ni, thinkers being non-emotional, introverts being shy. The list goes on. As for sensing types, I immediately question the writer's knowledge then they group them together as though Se types have a great deal in common with Si types.

 

[ptgatsby]

^ I'll never believe N as a function is "preferred" in the working world, I mean ALL the working world, not just certain select positions. Maybe genius level NT for certain jobs.

So you would only accept statistics that show that every job in the entire world would prefer N? That's certainly not going to be the case. In any case, N is preferred in the military as well - ranks, ability, predictive success, AFAIK.

F and P, however, are not popular in the working and military world. And most of the complaints tend to fall into one or both of those categories.

Pretty much every Disney movie celebrates a suppressed misunderstood dreamer/iNtuitive type who emerges victorious in a world of practicality and routine. These films make booga bucks and are the definition of mainstream.

I believe that age is the major factor here - children tend to show more N traits (or, at least, IIRC, test more N).

 

[nightning]

So you would only accept statistics that show that every job in the entire world would prefer N? That's certainly not going to be the case. In any case, N is preferred in the military as well - ranks, ability, predictive success, AFAIK.

F and P, however, are not popular in the working and military world. And most of the complaints tend to fall into one or both of those categories.

It depends on how you define "preferred". The backbone of the military is the common soldiers who follow directions to the T... (STJ ) If you talk about advancement... then yes that's true.

F & P have their uses... just not in your typical 9-5 type of jobs.

-----

Here's what I don't understand about this thread... I thought things ought to be clear after such a long discussion. Certainly I've been reading the same sort of arguments repeated. When does it stop?

 

[ptgatsby]

It depends on how you define "preferred". The backbone of the military is the common soldiers who follow directions to the T... (STJ ) If you talk about advancement... then yes that's true.

The TJ part is true at any level. The S/N can get into a large discussion with a lot of arguments, given that there is a preference for Ss to be in the military, but the N preference at any level comes from their own research (predictive success across the board). At best, it can be said that Ns are less likely to join due to having alternative options (like, say, higher education preferences or corporate life.)

Perhaps preferred is the wrong word. What I can say is that Ss are the ones hitting the "glass ceiling" in life, if either of them are. So hearing Ns whine about their unfortunate lot in life is, to my ears, ridiculous. And it's made more so when they complain about being a minority when the whole thing is just a spectrum of preferences in the first place, and when the test was designed on descriptions that clearly favored creating a minority of "special" people. It's... contrived.

That, and that the other three elements have as large if not larger costs that span a large spectrum... It irritates me to, essentially hear, "We stereotype Ss because they aren't as 'good' [according to some metric or another], but it's so tough being an N" in every single one of these threads.

<In before "you'd understand if you were an N".>

 

[Biaxident]

Life is what you make of it. Stop crying and move on.

 

[proteanmix]

The TJ part is true at any level. The S/N can get into a large discussion with a lot of arguments, given that there is a preference for Ss to be in the military, but the N preference at any level comes from their own research (predictive success across the board). At best, it can be said that Ns are less likely to join due to having alternative options (like, say, higher education preferences or corporate life.)

Perhaps preferred is the wrong word. What I can say is that Ss are the ones hitting the "glass ceiling" in life, if either of them are. So hearing Ns whine about their unfortunate lot in life is, to my ears, ridiculous. And it's made more so when they complain about being a minority when the whole thing is just a spectrum of preferences in the first place, and when the test was designed on descriptions that clearly favored creating a minority of "special" people. It's... contrived.

That, and that the other three elements have as large if not larger costs that span a large spectrum... It irritates me to, essentially hear, "We stereotype Ss because they aren't as 'good' [according to some metric or another], but it's so tough being an N" in every single one of these threads.

<In before "you'd understand if you were an N".>

You know throughout this whole thread the bolded statement is exactly what I've been thinking. I mean really, being an intuitive is minority status? Seriously? I'm thinking really hard about this and I do not believe people are conflating intuition to minority status. I can see that for maybe literal numbers, but otherwise?

Even taking a cursory glance through most MBTI websites shows that (not that I believe for a minute the typing is accurate or anything) most of the brilliant minds: scientists, artists, leaders, humanitarians, conquerors, intellectuals, revolutionaries, God, Jesus Christ, and Satan (angels and demons don't count since they are the worker bees and minions. Obviously sensors.) are typed as intuitives.

So really, intuitives are a mistreated minority group? Is this what people are asserting? Wow, I should've left this thread unread and forlorn.

Since I'm a helpful Fe, I willingly volunteer to hand deliver an Intuitive Declaration of Independence to the very steps of the White House and nail copies to all the House Office Buildings. I'll face a violent death in a storm of gunshots and my family will be forced to have a closed casket funeral if I attempt to even climb over the wrought iron gates, but I'm willing to do this because gotdammit we need another revolution. No guts, no glory. Your voices will be heard! And I'll get to be martyr for the cause which makes this all the more appealing.

 

[FemMecha]

I believe that age is the major factor here - children tend to show more N traits (or, at least, IIRC, test more N).

I can see this in terms of being a "dreamer" and such. However the development of cognitive processing in children moves from concrete to abstract. Children are especially "hands on". If you want to teach a child a new idea, it is ineffective to present a theory. They have to feel, see, taste, and smell each concept or they don't learn. There is also a stage of development that is rule-bound(elementary age), so information is best presented in clear, rather absolute terms. It is only after this stage, during adolescence that cognitive processing allows for examining grey areas and uncertainties. It is interesting that all this is balanced also with the childhood focus on imagination.

It is interesting that the misunderstood dreamer is such a fundamental part of our cultural narrative. It is consistent in Disney, but clearly exists in novels and movies intended for adults (although not with the same absolute consistency) I don't have a specific conclusion on everything this implies, but it does seem rather compelling especially in relation to this particular discussion.