xNTP and breadth and depth of knowledge

[Ghost of the dead horse]

There was a real good point in another thread about ENTP knowledge style: that some ENTP study information only to that depth that they can appear knowledgeable. It's interesting view.

ENTP
Another comment said that ENTP exchange depth for breadth in almost anything they do. On the other hand, some web descriptions have noted that ENTPs wish to have such areas of expertise where they are second to none.

Apart from wanting to make an impression, or to excel and to win, descriptions (and my observations and self-analysis) suggest that ENTPs mostly gather information to get more coping abilities, to handle a wider area of problems skillfully. This means both those challenges that the ENTP chooses themselves, and those challenges where the ENTP just finds themselves in.

In other words, ENTP would maximize the number of topic areas where they are notably better than their "competitors", even if that would be just "introductory level" knowledge about the topic.

INTP
INTPs are described as having the need to be intellectually competent, and to understand. I can agree to this a lot, altho the real situation is FAR from black-and-white. Is it perhaps that INTP choose a bit narrower topics of interest? I think that INTPs may be seen as "narrow" from a normal, usual perspective, where normal things are such as being nice, social, doing work, earning money, liking regular things, etc. THis is not ment as hostile, I support INTP way of life.

how I see it
How do you see ENTP and INTP in this respect? I see as ENTP gathering about the widest possible knowledge base and know-how amongst any types, perhaps on par with ENFP (on a second thought, no. ENFP handle many issues gracefully, but it's less book-knowledge-based and more the style of pulling social strings, even if just by a slight measure). Knowledge tends to be superficial and amateurish in many areas, but it's usable, and ENTP improvises 95% in any situations anyway, so that the low level of knowledge is just a starting point for ENTP to do their thing. THis, and ENTP seems to go INTP:ishly deep in some areas, too.

INTP on the other hand, when viewed from outside, seems to be content in concentrating their efforts in fewer areas of expertise. Not very narrow at all: areas the size of "contemporary literature" or "marine biology" or similar. They are broader than some practical hands-on skilled work, but narrower than ENTP's interests.

I would see INTPs coping skills as such that INTP arranges for their neglected topic areas to not to interfere with their lives. They do cope and manage and it's all allright. It just seems like a different approach from ENTP.

Have I got this all wrong, or what kind of perceptions do you have about the issue?

 

[The_Liquid_Laser]

Overall I think the INTP is the most knowledge based type, but only slightly. INTP's tend to have knowledge in a wide variety of topics and several areas that they know deeply. If you want to compare them to ENTP though, then I agree. I'd say ENTP would have more areas of knowledge proficiency, but INTP will have more areas of specialty. It can be somewhat like splitting hairs though since I think both types will have lots of areas of proficiency and several areas of specialty.

 

[Totenkindly]

Overall I think the INTP is the most knowledge based type, but only slightly. INTP's tend to have knowledge in a wide variety of topics and several areas that they know deeply. If you want to compare them to ENTP though, then I agree. I'd say ENTP would have more areas of knowledge proficiency, but INTP will have more areas of specialty. It can be somewhat like splitting hairs though since I think both types will have lots of areas of proficiency and several areas of specialty.

This tends to be my viewpoint, more or less, as well... based on theory and on my experience.

My ENTP friends would probably beat me on Jeopardy simply because there's more chance they'll know something about a particular field than I do about the field at all (although I do know a lot of various trivia tidbits all over the map)... they still have more breadth than me, despite my wide range of exploration... but if we get into a field that we both know, chances are I'll do a little better. The things that I do care to examine usually demand more than trivial knowledge.

Since I focused on my Ne when younger, I tended to again be into the "breadth" of things more than the single-minded depth that marks some INTPs. But then I would always feel guilty... like I should be devoting more time/energy to in-depth learning on anything and everything I cared to examine.

I'm not sure if ENTPs generally feel guilty about not going deeply into something, but I do -- I often feel like a dilettante and hesitate to speak on something I only know what I consider to be "surface knowledge" of.

 

[Athenian200]

I would say that INTP's are much more focused on narrow abstract topics earlier in life, but they usually start moving towards a few different things later on, even if they always find a connection between it and the previous topic. That's just a guess however.

As for myself, I would say that I was kind of ravenous early on. I felt so nervous that I didn't understand reality that I obsessively read Childcraft books, watched KERA, and attempted to understand my computer, sometimes even not sleeping for a couple days just so I would have more time to study. I eventually realized that I could relax a bit, since the other people around me would become nervous and react if there was any danger.

Even without Te, it's likely my Ni was just engaged in paranoid knowledge-seeking. I'm guessing that now, my Fe has focused my efforts on psychology and things that might be more relevant to people and society.

I would say that I'm not as diffuse as an ENTP, but far less thorough than an INTP in my understanding of things I look into. My understanding might also be less accurate and precise than theirs as well.

 

[ygolo]

I think I know very little about very little. The more I learn, the more this becomes clear. I also don't have a good way of gauging my knowledge against others.

I am, in general, lead to my intellectual pusuits by

• wanting an answer to some question and/or
• wanting to be able to do something that requires building a skill and acquiring knowledge.

 

[MacGuffin]

INTPs and ENTPs are very similar. I suspect they have similar attributes.

 

[SolitaryWalker]

INTPs and ENTPs are very similar. I suspect they have similar attributes.

Not so much, the INFP and INTJ have more in common with the INTP than the ENTP. The I/E makes a big difference, its fundamental to how we look at the world. ENTPs take the external world for granted, yet INTPs live in their heads.

So, maybe similar, though I would not say *very* similar.

 

[MacGuffin]

Not so much, the INFP and INTJ have more in common with the INTP than the ENTP. The I/E makes a big difference, its fundamental to how we look at the world. ENTPs take the external world for granted, yet INTPs live in their heads.

So, maybe similar, though I would not say *very* similar.

I have not found the INTJ that similar at all.

INTP: TiNe
ENTP: NeTi
INTJ: NiTe

 

[SolitaryWalker]

Here is an interesting way to look at it.

INTPs, as they have dominant introverted judgment tend to look for an inner purpose in almost everything they do. Often search for truth and competence is an end in itself.

For ENTPs, Introverted Judgment is slave to External perceptions--basically their fleeting hunches. So, their search for competence and search for truth is subordinate to their desires that manifest in a form of hunches. They will only seek truth and competence to the extent that they will be able to showcase it to the external world.

Same could be said for ENFPs in comparison to INFPs. INFPs often see being kind to others as an end in itself, yet ENFPs by contrast tend to find it more important to convince others that they are kind as with the dominant Ne image tends to be nearly everything.

ENPs have better presentation skills, (best of all types), yet if the introverted judgment is slave to their dominant function whatever merits they may find with Fi/Ti will be acquired only for the sake of showing off or getting themselves something that they want from the outer world. In short, such ENPs have little in common with INPs as they are bereft of higher purpose. The higher purpose is the cornerstone of introverted judgment. Imagine this, a neurotic INTP obsesses himself over always being honest and competent, yet a neurotic ENTP has little regard for actually being honest and competent but much more for using the image of an honest and competent person he has created for himself to get himself what he wants or to make others impressed with him.

Same with the NFPs. Neurotic INFPs obsess themselves with treating everyone kindly and being true to their values, whilst neurotic ENFPs hardly think of this at all and focus more on creating an image that everyone would love them for and wouldnt have any pangs of conscience about going against the values they claim to have to get themselves what they want. Yes, perceiving functions are irrational as they are unconscious, they pander to our desires, and they will continue to serve our ID untill we have our judging function put a lid on them.

 

[SolitaryWalker]

I have not found the INTJ that similar at all.

INTP: TiNe
ENTP: NeTi
INTJ: NiTe

Yup, the inner world of an INTJ is very different from the inner world of an INTP.

Although, we could say that the ENTP on the outside looks much like the INTP, yet because he doesnt have much of an inner world he has little in common with the INTP. So, someone who lives in a similar terrain as we do has more in common with us than someone who lives in a different world altogether.

I'm thinking that the E/I discrepancy, is almost as salient as the N/S. All of those conceptualizations that INTPs do for the sake of their inner world would be meaningless to an ENTP because they have no empirical grounding or application to the real world. INTJs also like to have empirical grounding more than INTPs, and as TJs want for ideas to have practical applications, yet because they are introverts--they too, just like INTPs will do things for the sake of the inner world along. The difference here is, INTPs do it for the sake of their inner purpose (Ti), and INTJs for the sake of their inner vision.

 

[MacGuffin]

Yup, the inner world of an INTJ is very different from the inner world of an INTP.

Although, we could say that the ENTP on the outside looks much like the INTP, yet because he doesnt have much of an inner world he has little in common with the INTP. So, someone who lives in a similar terrain as we do has more in common with us than someone who lives in a different world altogether.

I'm thinking that the E/I discrepancy, is almost as salient as the N/S. All of those conceptualizations that INTPs do for the sake of their inner world would be meaningless to an ENTP because they have no empirical grounding or application to the real world. INTJs also like to have empirical grounding more than INTPs, and as TJs want for ideas to have practical applications, yet because they are introverts--they too, just like INTPs will do things for the sake of the inner world along. The difference here is, INTPs do it for the sake of their inner purpose (Ti), and INTJs for the sake of their inner vision.

I still disagree.

I think from the outside the INTP and the INTJ look similar. It is only when you really look at them you notice how different they think. The ENTP looks nothing like the INTP from a distance, but that Ti is backing up the wild Ne on the interior.

 

[SolitaryWalker]

I still disagree.

I think from the outside the INTP and the INTJ look similar. It is only when you really look at them you notice how different they think. The ENTP looks nothing like the INTP from a distance, but that Ti is backing up the wild Ne on the interior.

Ah, I see how INTs look similar on the outside because of their introversion, (A trait the ENTP lacks despite being intuitive and analytical), yet again, I am inclined to think that because the INTJ focuses more on the inner world than the outer, they have more in common with the INTPs than the ENTP--a type that focuses primarily on the outer world.

(I am thinking the inner world of an ENTP would look more like that of the INTJ because of the dominant Intuition. When an ENTP introverts, their Ti will be bending their Ne inwards producing the Ni effect. This is very different from the INP, judgment (as opposed to intuition) oriented inner world).

So, to cut my story short in crude terms, INTJs are more like INTPs because they have an inner world (thats different from that of INTPs), but at least they have an inner world whilst ENTPs dont. (This is hyperbole to better illustrate the point)

 

[MacGuffin]

Yes, both the INTJs and INTPs have interior worlds, but they are arranged very differently.

An ENTP does have one too. Maybe not as rich as the INTP, but similar.

 

[lowtech redneck]

Since I focused on my Ne when younger, I tended to again be into the "breadth" of things more than the single-minded depth that marks some INTPs. But then I would always feel guilty... like I should be devoting more time/energy to in-depth learning on anything and everything I cared to examine.

That describes me to a "T" (where the hell did that expression come from, anyway?). What's worse, I always hate for others to think I am smarter/more knowledgable than I think I really am, so I always feel the need to limit their expectations by saying that the sum of my knowledge is a mile wide and an inch deep.

 

[The_Liquid_Laser]

Yup, the inner world of an INTJ is very different from the inner world of an INTP.

Although, we could say that the ENTP on the outside looks much like the INTP, yet because he doesnt have much of an inner world he has little in common with the INTP. So, someone who lives in a similar terrain as we do has more in common with us than someone who lives in a different world altogether.

I'm thinking that the E/I discrepancy, is almost as salient as the N/S. All of those conceptualizations that INTPs do for the sake of their inner world would be meaningless to an ENTP because they have no empirical grounding or application to the real world. INTJs also like to have empirical grounding more than INTPs, and as TJs want for ideas to have practical applications, yet because they are introverts--they too, just like INTPs will do things for the sake of the inner world along. The difference here is, INTPs do it for the sake of their inner purpose (Ti), and INTJs for the sake of their inner vision.

All of your posts seem to be describing unbalanced neurotic versions of both INTP and ENTP. You describe and INTP as someone who can't hold a job or even bathe himself because he has no concern for the external world, while the ENTP is some type of sociopath without any moral grounding whatsoever. The E/I discrepancy is only as significant as you say it is when an individual is either an extreme introvert who is afraid to go outside, or an extreme extravert who can't stand to be alone in a quite place for 3 seconds.

In healthy, mature individuals the divide is not so great. Extraverts can have a rich internal world and introverts can even have a rich external world. Many people are not as neurotically unbalanced as you would have us believe.

 

[SolitaryWalker]

All of your posts seem to be describing unbalanced neurotic versions of both INTP and ENTP. You describe and INTP as someone who can't hold a job or even bathe himself because he has no concern for the external world, while the ENTP is some type of sociopath without any moral grounding whatsoever. The E/I discrepancy is only as significant as you say it is when an individual is either an extreme introvert who is afraid to go outside, or an extreme extravert who can't stand to be alone in a quite place for 3 seconds.

In healthy, mature individuals the divide is not so great. Extraverts can have a rich internal world and introverts can even have a rich external world. Many people are not as neurotically unbalanced as you would have us believe.

It is better to look at neurotic versions of these two types than healthy versions in order to underline the salient differences between the INTP and ENTP. Namely, that of being Ne dominant and Ti dominant. With a neurotic INTP, the dominant Ti function is accentuated most, with a neurotic ENTP, the Ne dominant function is accentuated the most.

I am not talking about how most NTPs are like, but merely trying to depict the archetypal quiddity of these two temperaments.

 

[meanlittlechimp]

Imagine this, a neurotic INTP obsesses himself over always being honest and competent, yet a neurotic ENTP has little regard for actually being honest and competent but much more for using the image of an honest and competent person he has created for himself to get himself what he wants or to make others impressed with him.

I don't think neurotic INTPs are driven by honesty, competency definitely, but not necessarily honesty. Also, I don't think unhealthy ENTPs tend to be neurotic, the unhealthy ones tend to have other issues, but it's usually not neuroses (obessive-compulsive, acute anxiety, hysetria etc).

I get the sense that even many healthy INTPs are slightly neurotic (anxiety issues), which often helps drive them towards competency. The unhealthy INTPs let their neurosis slow down their competency.

 

[SolitaryWalker]

Yes, both the INTJs and INTPs have interior worlds, but they are arranged very differently.

An ENTP does have one too. Maybe not as rich as the INTP, but similar.

I am thinking that the inner world of an ENTP is much more like the inner world of an INTJ than an INTP because both have dominant intuition. When an ENTP introverts, their intuition still preceeds their intellect (judging function). So they first want to process their intuitions before making decisions, this is very different from INTPs who often are unable to collect enough information because they are always making decisions internally.

 

[SolitaryWalker]

I don't think neurotic INTPs are driven by honesty, competency definitely, but not necessarily honesty. Also, I don't think unhealthy ENTPs tend to be neurotic, the unhealthy ones tend to have other issues, but it's usually not neuroses (obessive-compulsive, acute anxiety, hysetria etc).

I get the sense that even many healthy INTPs are slightly neurotic (anxiety issues), which often helps drive them towards competency. The unhealthy INTPs let their neurosis slow down their competency.

I have used neurosis in a Jungian sense of the word which means excessive focus on one particular function. Necessarily the dominant one.

You're correct to point out that 'neurotic' INTPs are not necessarily driven by honesty. Though, I would claim that INTPs who are intellectually inclined(at this point I am referring to those with an intense focus on activities akin to physics and philosophy) are highly likely to value honesty as an entailment of their search for truth. In order to be competent, they'd have to be proficient at their quest for truth, and in order to do that they must be intellectually honest. After this they will likely apply their candid inquiry to almost everything else they do in life which would require for them to be honest. So, again, competence holds primacy over honesty because honesty is often, though not always is an entailment of the quest for competence.

Correct, 'neurotic' ENTPs are less likely to be plagued by anxiety problems than 'neurotic' INTPs. It is closer to the other way around. The salient dilemma for the off-balance ENTP is an intensely active Extroverted Perceiving function which prevents them from being serious enough to make sound decisions. Yet, the INTP, on the other hand would be too serious, as their perceiving function, the one that allows for us to take a leisurely approach to the world will be difficult to access.

 

[substitute]

This 'superficiality' of ENTP's knowledge-seeking is something that I must've missed in the 'how to be ENTP' handbook, cos last time I checked, people didn't get PhD's with only superficial knowledge.

As an ENTP I see every experience as a perceiving exercise - by just going along, doing what I do and without always deliberately setting out to learn something, I simply absorb everything I experience, or what I take from it - its essence, its significance and potential - and then it just sits there in the subconscious, ready to be pulled out and used as an ingredient in a cocktail of actions at some future time, that that's just what the doctor ordered in some future situation.

Probably most of the stuff I know, I don't even know I know - until it's called on, then I sort of 'realise' that I know it. If asked in a trivia, Q&A session, I probably wouldn't appear to know, because the 'trigger' for using it hasn't come - I don't (contrary to popular belief) care that much about impressing people, so answering some quiz doesn't register as an occasion to raid the knowledge bank. But if the trigger comes, out comes the knowledge as naturally as breathing.

But I have always been an avid reader, though my approach to book reading is different from my INTP friend Jim. He reads in order to understand the world, whereas I live in the world, interact with it and experiment with it in order to understand it, and I read more out of sheer curiosity. I don't believe the world can be understood from books, though of course they help.

But for me, once I have a piece of knowledge, the idea is to go and use it - test it, experiment with it, refine it in the crucible of experience, and often when you do that, you learn everything it would've taken you a month to read in that big volume on the shelf in the space of a few hours - plus other stuff that the author of the book didn't notice/experience/write about. But sometimes I return from my experiments to read more, saying to myself, "Right, okay, so that worked - what's next?"

Jim puts his knowledge from books somewhere inside himself and seems to be building some vast pattern inside his head, a blueprint of some kind that only he can see and only he knows what it's for (though sometimes I wonder if even he does). Presumably he's trying to 'arm' or 'equip' himself for something, but I don't know what, considering that he rarely actually experiences anything because he rarely leaves his room, the library or his own company!!

If you imagine the sum of mine and Jim's knowledge and where it came from as a chart, then the bars for us both are probably about the same size, but.... I'm A on the line below, while Jim's B.



Experience------------------------A----------------B-------------theory