Derail from "On Spiritual Gifts": Determining faith-fact from faith-fiction

[sassafrassquatch]

At the heart of the matter, I agree with you.

But at the same time, 33 000 + denominations for Christianity and 7 for Judaism. We're doing something wrong that we need that many denominations. We all have differences, but we're all worshiping the same God. I wish we got along better. Unity has so much more power, too. It's far more practical.

I'm curious, if you were going to unify The_Church how would you go about determining what the true word/will of God is and what is incorrect/misinterpreted as far as theology goes?

The point of contention with drove me to abandon christianity was the endlessly multiplying denominations and interpretations of scripture and the lack of any system for objectively determining which christian sect, if any, accurately represents the will of God. Apologetics are useless since every single denomination has a pile of books explaining in fine detail as to why their particular version of things is correct.

 

[Totenkindly]

MY opinion at this point is that unity will have to come out of love, not out of conformity of belief.

The demand that everyone who follows Jesus must have the exact same doctrine is a product of Enlightenment thinking, where belief became more concerned with theological correctness rather than one's attitude towards and treatment of others.

Families do not have to share the same beliefs in order to love each other and do what is best for each other and sacrifice. The Church needs to understand that. Perhaps some denominations do show some very differing ideas of what Christianity means (so perhaps sometimes things cannot easily be reconciled), or perhaps some of the beliefs seem very far-fetched compared to what evidence we might have; but overall the major denominations have no real foundation to claim that one of them is "more correct" than another.

So to pursue that route seems fallacious to me.

Love compensates for difference in belief. I might not be able to tell which person has the most correct theology, but I sure can tell which people I see to be worthy of my emulation and seem to be most "Christ-like."

 

[Usehername]

I'm curious, if you were going to unify The_Church how would you go about determining what the true word/will of God is and what is incorrect/misinterpreted as far as theology goes?

The point of contention with drove me to abandon christianity was the endlessly multiplying denominations and interpretations of scripture and the lack of any system for objectively determining which christian sect, if any, accurately represents the will of God. Apologetics are useless since every single denomination has a pile of books explaining in fine detail as to why their particular version of things is correct.

Well, I don't know that that's the point of unifying the church.

The point of my Christianity is that I've known Christ and His love. This is a powerful thing. I've become a more full person because I know Christ.

I see the point of church as:
-bringing together different people so we can learn from each other's strengths, build each other up, and become one body who together does Christ's works (out of love) according to our gifts and strengths
-a place where I can worship God. I do this on my own with my guitar, or other ways than music worship, but corporate worship is important, too.

I've been on message boards where people have said "Catholics aren't Christian" and used the bible to quote why they aren't "saved" etc. and I think this mindset is terrifying.
I think these leaders of these churches that teach this thinking believe what they believe soo much that they condemn anything that doesn't align with their personal beliefs out of fear for those that they care about.
They're over-protecting.

There is going to be some conflict of interests/interpretations in the church. This is because we are different. Different is good, so long as our main goals are aligned. (which, as Christians, they should be. Love the lord your God, Love your neighbour)
However, people in power are scared of the differences in thought and I think this is how different denominations are formed.

I don't know that we need to determine a correct theology. We all have a copy of the same Bible (or almost the same Bible, b/c Catholics have more) and I don't see how we can't all respect differing views but still work toward teh same goals as a team.

 

[usernameredacted]

I'm curious, if you were going to unify The_Church how would you go about determining what the true word/will of God is and what is incorrect/misinterpreted as far as theology goes?

If you were going to attempt to unify the Church, you would begin by doing simply that - uniting - and I believe God reveal the Truth by people praying together, worshiping together, and sharing what God has revealed to them Ultimate Truth doesn't come necessarily by discussion/debate anyways; it comes by people reading their Bibles and God giving them revelation

 

[sassafrassquatch]

MY opinion at this point is that unity will have to come out of love, not out of conformity of belief.

The demand that everyone who follows Jesus must have the exact same doctrine is a product of Enlightenment thinking, where belief became more concerned with theological correctness rather than one's attitude towards and treatment of others.

The catholic church spent a great deal of time whacking anyone they considered a heretic long before the enlightenment.

Families do not have to share the same beliefs in order to love each other and do what is best for each other and sacrifice. The Church needs to understand that. Perhaps some denominations do show some very differing ideas of what Christianity means (so perhaps sometimes things cannot easily be reconciled), or perhaps some of the beliefs seem very far-fetched compared to what evidence we might have; but overall the major denominations have no real foundation to claim that one of them is "more correct" than another.

So to pursue that route seems fallacious to me.

Love compensates for difference in belief. I might not be able to tell which person has the most correct theology, but I sure can tell which people I see to be worthy of my emulation and seem to be most "Christ-like."

But how do you know that God is all warm fuzzy and loving? How do you know that he doesn't demand strict adherence to his commandments? What if you spend your life on the "all you need is love" track, you die and *oops* the snake handlers were right or the mormons?

What I want to know is how do you know that your faith is correct?

I'm going to keep this inside christianity, the christianity vs all-other-religions is another discussion entirely.

 

[Totenkindly]

The catholic church spent a great deal of time whacking anyone they considered a heretic long before the enlightenment.

True, I will give you that one.

But there was a distinct shift once the Enlightenment occurred, which has definitely contributed to how the Western mindset views the practice of faith.

But how do you know that God is all warm fuzzy and loving?

Fixed! To clarify, the sort of love I'm describing isn't "warm and fuzzy." (It hurts the lover like hell, most of the time.)

How do you know that he doesn't demand strict adherence to his commandments? What if you spend your life on the "all you need is love" track, you die and *oops* the snake handlers were right or the mormons?

My viewpoint? If they are right, I'd rather spend an eternity separated from the god these people serve, because I'd hate every moment I'd have to spent with him. (Make sense?)

What I want to know is how do you know that your faith is correct?

I don't. (I have been struggling through this issue for the last few years, and am still down in the pit with it... )

In the end, all I see is that each one of us has to look at life and use what resources are available to us and make decisions to the best of our ability about what we believe and why... and always be willing to learn and change to accommodate new information.

This is the problem with "revelation-based" theologies. You're given a nice pretty package with a bow on it and told what is true, and then your job is to conform to it, regardless of what you yourself would like to believe or think might be true. You now have to submit all of your normal observations, even the ones that might not fit, under this umbrella of faith. Sometimes that is easy, sometimes it's difficult; and sometimes it makes no sense.

That does not work well for an INTP, let me tell you. (And obviously it does not sit well with our ISTP brethren either. ) I tried to do it for a long time, and finally couldn't do it any longer.

So what do you do for ethics/faith? How do you know that your particular moral value system is true -- at least true enough to act on and live by? What things convinced you that the things you think are "good" are actually good?

I'm going to keep this inside christianity, the christianity vs all-other-religions is another discussion entirely.

That's fine.

 

[Recluse]

Families do not have to share the same beliefs in order to love each other and do what is best for each other and sacrifice.

Love compensates for difference in belief.

I wish my brother and sister would adopt that view. Giving your love to an unsubstantiated belief rather than to a living, breathing human being whom you've known all your life is alien to my mindset. If there isn't allowance to love both, due to mere differences of opinion, the belief system is faulty (dare I say intolerant?). But what do I know? I'm on the autobahn to hell; just ask 'em.

 

[Usehername]

I wish my brother and sister would adopt that view. Giving your love to an unsubstantiated belief rather than to a living, breathing human being whom you've known all your life is alien to my mindset. If there isn't allowance to love both, due to mere differences of opinion, the belief system is faulty (dare I say intolerant?). But what do I know? I'm on the autobahn to hell; just ask 'em.

If you're Christian family isn't loving you regardless of, well, anything, they don't have much depth to their Christianity.

IMO.

And the Bible, too. And Christian teaching. Soo.... it's not the belief system that's faulty.

 

[Totenkindly]

A slight tangent, but this is what happens when Christianity is defined as adherence to a set of intellectual doctrines rather than as a behavior directed towards others.

1. "Oh no, my child is gay! I hate having to do this, but his choice to live in a homosexual relationship means I can never talk to him again or let him in my house until he stops."

2. "That woman is a prostitute. Regardless of her reasons for her behavior, I cannot talk to her or interact with her, or she might think I am condoning her choices."

3. "That movie/book has profanity in it, so regardless of the true moral content, I will not read it nor let others read it."

And so on. It is a nice little "gray" area -- one can understand the desire to adhere to a moral standard, but what of relationship?

 

[sassafrassquatch]

A slight tangent, but this is what happens when Christianity is defined as adherence to a set of intellectual doctrines rather than as a behavior directed towards others.

1. "Oh no, my child is gay! I hate having to do this, but his choice to live in a homosexual relationship means I can never talk to him again or let him in my house until he stops."

2. "That woman is a prostitute. Regardless of her reasons for her behavior, I cannot talk to her or interact with her, or she might think I am condoning her choices."

3. "That movie/book has profanity in it, so regardless of the true moral content, I will not read it nor let others read it."

And so on. It is a nice little "gray" area -- one can understand the desire to adhere to a moral standard, but what of relationship?

If it's their faith that they are obeying the will of God then you really can't judge them since you have no way of proving that their version of christianity is wrong.

 

[cafe]

A slight tangent, but this is what happens when Christianity is defined as adherence to a set of intellectual doctrines rather than as a behavior directed towards others.

Yes and this is where I run into problems with it with some folks. It seems too arbitrary, inauthentic, and stifling, to me.

 

[Recluse]

Edit: Bleh! On second thought, I don't care to share all that, so I have deleted my response.

Nothing to see here. Move along.

 

[sassafrassquatch]

Nearly a week and no new posts, I thought this would have been a more popular topic.

OK, let's expand this to everything under the religion/faith/spirituality umbrella.

I'm really interested in this would like to know how people who are open to multiple faiths rather than the fundy One_True_Path decide what faiths are valid and which ones are outright bullshit. If you approach your faith as just a lifestyle and don't believe that god(s)(ess)(es) actually exist or that there is no afterlife then that's not what I'm talking about. I'm asking those who believe in actual god(s)(ess)(es), spiritual beings, an afterlife, stuff like that.

Are scientology and UFO cults as valid beliefs as christianity and buddhism in your mind? What are the limits of credible belief? How far out does someone's beliefs have to be before you think "this guy is nuts"? How do you determine which beliefs reflect reality and which ones are made up?