[MBTI General] INTJ: How do others see you? (ISFJ mom's opinion of me)

[JivinJeffJones]

Man, what a raw deal being compared to an INFP for apparent depth of feeling! You need wubbies!

I don't think "depth of soul" equates with "apparent depth of feeling".

I think "depth of soul" is measured (wrongly) by something else. I think it still has to do with intense emotions, but it is commonly more a description of people whose (intense) emotions are ambiguous, ambivalent, complicated and not readily apparent. While I think an INTJ is as capable as an INFP of having intense emotions, I think they would probably have far less inner ambivalence, ambiguity and conflictedness than an INFP due to their dominant Te. So I don't think INTJs would have less of an emotional life, I think they would have a better-defined (and controlled?) emotional life.

I dunno, how would you measure "depth of soul"?

Personally, I consider the INTJs I know to oversimplify values issues in favour of pragmatism. When you really question one on why they do the things they do, and why they hold the values they hold, it's like hitting your head against a brick wall sometimes. I can never tell if their values exhibit the simplicity of enlightenment, the simplicity of naivety, or the simplicity of indifference/despair.

 

[Metamorphosis]

Personally, I consider the INTJs I know to oversimplify values issues in favour of pragmatism. When you really question one on why they do the things they do, and why they hold the values they hold, it's like hitting your head against a brick wall sometimes. I can never tell if their values exhibit the simplicity of enlightenment, the simplicity of naivety, or the simplicity of indifference/despair.

The simplicity of effectiveness. Practically by nature, the more complicated you make something the less likely it is to work (computers for example). Do I have strong values? Yes. Do I still think the end justifies the means? Yes. Just because we appear to lack empathy doesn't mean that we do. It means that we are willing to make sacrifices (or make others make sacrifices, as the case may be) for the greater good. ...and the greater good in this case isn't humanity, it's whatever we deem it to be...

The appearance of oversimplifying values issues is probably not because we don't care about the values aspect. I don't believe that values must only be interpreted emotionally. Logical calculations still come into play.

 

[JivinJeffJones]

The appearance of oversimplifying values issues is probably not because we don't care about the values aspect. I don't believe that values must only be interpreted emotionally. Logical calculations still come into play.

I'm not suggesting they don't. I'm suggesting that, when you boil it down, they don't seem to be interested in where their values come from, and what end they serve.

Me: Why do you do X?
INTJ: To achieve Y.
Me: Why do you want to achieve Y?
INTJ: Because it is the best way to achieve Z.
Me: Why do you want to achieve Z?
INTJ: Why wouldn't I want to achieve Z?
Me: But surely there's a reason you want to achieve Z?
INTJ: *blank/suspicious look*

 

[Metamorphosis]

I'm not suggesting they don't. I'm suggesting that, when you boil it down, they don't seem to be interested in where their values come from, and what end they serve.

Me: Why do you do X?
INTJ: To achieve Y.
Me: Why do you want to achieve Y?
INTJ: Because it is the best way to achieve Z.
Me: Why do you want to achieve Z?
INTJ: Why wouldn't I want to achieve Z?
Me: But surely there's a reason you want to achieve Z?
INTJ: *blank/suspicious look*

hmm...That's one of those things that you don't really notice until someone points it out to you. Overall, though, I would say that that is correct in my case. I don't see how you could really understand what motivates all of your values though...do you? In the end, I could probably explain most of my goals, but not necessarily why I have the values that they are based on.

My ancient western political theory class just recently started discussing a similar topic that really got me thinking. It was basically over Socrates asking people, "Why do you do what you do?," rather than, "How do you do what you do?" It seems like an easy question on the outside but it really isn't.

 

[JivinJeffJones]

I don't see how you could really understand what motivates all of your values though...do you? In the end, I could probably explain most of my goals, but not necessarily why I have the values that they are based on.

I don't know if it's possible to really understand what motivates my values, but it's not for a lack of thinking about it. INFPs have trouble not thinking about it.

 

[Totenkindly]

I don't know if it's possible to really understand what motivates my values, but it's not for a lack of thinking about it. INFPs have trouble not thinking about it.

I'm not sure what motivates values either. They just seem to exist.

Everything seems so arbitrary sometimes, except for principles derived straight from the observable environment.

And INTJs seem inclined to worry less about why something is the way is (or what it's "supposed" to be) and more inclined to worry about how to implement what they've decided exists or is worth doing.

She thinks my soul is superficial. She actually said that. I'm not offended but I do wonder how much of this is her ISFJ not-able-to-seeness. (She said my INFP brother (and btw she hates myers-briggs so this was not related in that way, we just used words) has the deepest soul. I told her he is more feeling-ly; she said that my "conceptual and theoretical" soul is not deep b/c I don't share myself.)

Yes, I can see an ISFJ saying that. Because everything is judged by observable feeling actions, and INTJs often hide theirs and develop the ability to expose it later in life, usually, if at all. The impersonal manipulation of the environment would seem very cold and lifeless to her. INFPs tend to exude personal connection, however -- palpable goodwill. She would sense this more. So she is really judging you by HER standard of what "deep/meaningful" is, and not seeing beyond the surface.

 

[Metamorphosis]

And INTJs seem inclined to worry less about why something is the way is (or what it's "supposed" to be) and more inclined to worry about how to implement what they've decided exists or is worth doing.

I agree. It is strange that we are so caught up in how things work and then choose to ignore the all important why they work. It's both a strength and a weakness.

 

[Mendacity]

I'm new, so I hope no one minds my jumping in like this, but I'm a female INTJ and I'm given to understand that we are a very rare breed.
There was another female INTJ who posted and like her, I'm told that I'm intimidating, tactless and too independent for my own good. I fail to see how that's possible
I'm also told that I argue over things so much that it's obnoxious and often insulting. That I'm rude to people I find tiresome or stupid and become defensive when strangers ask me questions about myself.
I have no idea why I might be intimidating because I'm actually kind of shy. And I don't mean to be insulting or obnoxious when I argue things. Mostly I do it to understand whatever the topic is better, or to learn about the ideas of the other side. People often confuse my critique of their argument as a critique of them personally.

My friends are often amused at the small social details I don't understand... such as things one may not want to mention on a first date (my philosophy is that if the relationship has any future they'll find out eventually).

After re-reading this post, I have realized that it probably makes me look like a really mean, arrogant person. I assure you that is not the case.

 

[INTJMom]

I've read all the "right" responses to this question... but I'm asking more of a one-on-one, "this is how someone said they see me" question.

My mom thinks I need too much privacy; that I can't let anyone see me fail and I like to be seen as tough.

She thinks my soul is superficial. She actually said that. I'm not offended but I do wonder how much of this is her ISFJ not-able-to-seeness.

(She said my INFP brother (and btw she hates myers-briggs so this was not related in that way, we just used words) has the deepest soul. I told her he is more feeling-ly; she said that my "conceptual and theoretical" soul is not deep b/c I don't share myself.)

I am so baffled. Different does not mean "less than" or "greater than" it simply means different.

But it made me think: how do you see INTJs? What do you think of their abstract ideas and depth of soul? What do you think about INTJs and feeling?

I don't know if you're still looking for input but I had an close friendship with an ISFJ for 3 years.
She ended up hating me because of my "conservative" stance on everything in life.

I ended up hating the way she always had to have everything the same all the time.
And she certainly had no intention of changing herself one iota.
And I didn't like her stubbornness when she was wrong.

What you said about your Mom appreciating your brother,
certainly it must be his "F" that makes her feel like she can relate to him better.
Not only that, but I have a son, and I can tell you,
sons have their moms wrapped around their little finger
the way that daughters stereotypically do with dads.

T and F is in the eye of the beholder.
An ISFJ is EXTREMELY SENSITIVE to feelings.
An INTJ is not that sensitive to feelings unless they have learned it.
Therefore, there is a greater expanse between your T and her F.
In other words, some other F types who are not as sensitive might not see you quite as extremely as your mom sees you.

My ISFJ friend was ALL ABOUT FEELINGS.
I learned how to be more careful about people's feelings,
but it really was emotionally exhausting for me to have to care about her feelings 24/7.

Frankly, if your mom is telling you she likes your brother better than you,
her F must not be as strong as my friend's.
The F tends to make people diplomatic in what they say to people.

As far as her seeing your depth of soul, she is unable to see it.
You have it, but she doesn't see it - in my opinion.

Well, MBTI is all about improving human relationships, so keep up the good work.

 

["?"]

I don't think that INTJs have exclusivity to being seen this way. My late mom always considered me hearless and uncaring, as does other females in my family. This is more of a T-thing and most likely is shared by those who have a "Chart the Course" interaction style. The directness and no non-sense means of communicating with others can be quite intimidating.

 

[INTJMom]

I have an ISTP son.
He is so opposite from me that I had to work hard at appreciating him for who he is
(not like my mom who tried to make me like her).
I think my son is charming and clever and good with his hands,
and he brings a lot of fun to our household.

(Sorry you don't have your mom any more.)

 

[Matt G]

I spy with my little I something beginning with I

I spy with my little I
Something beginning with...

Private, aloof, arrogant a touch
Spouting, ideas, connections and such
Where will it end, where will it stop?

Analytical, logical take me to bits
I don't need your solutions or easy fix
Process me, think through me, put it to bed
Left with the meanings trapped in your head
Next step, next thought, next conversation has led...

to the INTJ at the end of the thread

 

["?"]

I have an ISTP son.
He is so opposite from me that I had to work hard at appreciating him for who he is
(not like my mom who tried to make me like her).
I think my son is charming and clever and good with his hands,
and he brings a lot of fun to our household.

For whatever reason forums such as this have an arduous time getting past the steortypes of Keirsey and Myers-Briggs, when Myers-Briggs in her own words from "Gifts Differing" allude to their being two types of ISTPs, one who is technically and mechanically inclined (the one most focus on) and the other who is accomplished at organizing unorganized data. I have only witnessed the latter, who has more in common with INTJ than the average SP. In fact, I will attempt to locate the description that describes this type of ISTP as loathing the SP behavior usually alluded to.

 

[Veneti]

My ancient western political theory class just recently started discussing a similar topic that really got me thinking. It was basically over Socrates asking people, "Why do you do what you do?," rather than, "How do you do what you do?" It seems like an easy question on the outside but it really isn't.

Question is: "Why do you do what you do?"

Answer: "Because I cannot do nothing"

 

[INTJMom]

For whatever reason forums such as this have an arduous time getting past the stereotypes of Keirsey and Myers-Briggs, when Myers-Briggs in her own words from "Gifts Differing" allude to their being two types of ISTPs, one who is technically and mechanically inclined (the one most focus on) and the other who is accomplished at organizing unorganized data. I have only witnessed the latter, who has more in common with INTJ than the average SP. In fact, I will attempt to locate the description that describes this type of ISTP as loathing the SP behavior usually alluded to.

I have never heard of it before.
Are there two kinds of ALL the types?

 

[NightSymphony]

I find other people's views of me interesting, really. I am referred to as a 'Bitch', 'Smart-Ass', 'Arrogant' and 'Satanist'. These names probably have something to do with my hateful, unemotional and angsty behaviour towards others. A couple of the names come from my constant ranting.

 

[MetalWounds]

I get edgy, brave, and in the same sense, stupid.
Mostly because if there is a Sargent who is telling me to do something pointless/the wrong way, I will generally tell them "That's the dumbest idea I have ever heard and I'm not doing that". Or, if I'm getting my ass chewed for something and I know I was in the right, I'll start to bring up regulations and operating instructions that prove that I was in the right. (Instead of taking it like a sheep and then bitching about it later) This usually gets me in more trouble than it's worth, but I cant really help it, and I don't care. In the military doing what you are told is more important that doing the "right/most efficient/sensible" action. Most just think I'm an asshole, though.

 

[Gabe]

My INTJ daughter doesn't show much emotion and she isn't very open about what she thinks of feels. I just figure still waters run deep and she'll share when and if she feels like it. I don't think my INFP daughter is any deeper because, to me, her feelings seem more fleeting. Feelings that are not sustained seem shallow to me. So for whatever that's worth.

Edit: Oh. Sorry. I'm not an INTJ.

hmmm.
"still waters run deep" is the quote Jung used to describe introverted feeling.
INFP feelings are not fleeting (just have to say it). At best=Ghandi.

(wouldn't an INTJ be very willing to say what they think?)
A feeling preference doesn't neccessarily mean 'emotive'.

 

[Gabe]

I stand by my assertion that Roslin is an INTJ. It's a fallacy to attribute her mystic leanings to Fe; that's all Ni. Something I think that the rational types have difficulty understanding is that even for we introverted intuitives with thinking as our secondary function, our overall experience of life is extremely, well, mystical. (For lack of a better term.) Why do you think we're so driven?

Well, diagnosing someone else..? but introverted intuition types usually experience thier intuition as normal (this IS true, don't listen to Kiersey)

 

[Camelopardalis]

I've read all the "right" responses to this question... but I'm asking more of a one-on-one, "this is how someone said they see me" question.

My mom thinks I need too much privacy; that I can't let anyone see me fail and I like to be seen as tough.

She thinks my soul is superficial. She actually said that. I'm not offended but I do wonder how much of this is her ISFJ not-able-to-seeness.

(She said my INFP brother (and btw she hates myers-briggs so this was not related in that way, we just used words) has the deepest soul. I told her he is more feeling-ly; she said that my "conceptual and theoretical" soul is not deep b/c I don't share myself.)

I am so baffled. Different does not mean "less than" or "greater than" it simply means different.

But it made me think: how do you see INTJs? What do you think of their abstract ideas and depth of soul? What do you think about INTJs and feeling?

I understand, since I have an ISFJ mother as well. She thinks I'm extreme because when I debate with her, I usually don't let emotions dominate it, whereas she tend to focus more on interpersonal relations more than anything. She frowned upon my expressed desire not to comform to social norms should I think them wrong. She thinks she knows me better than I know myself.:steam: and that I have schizoid personality disorder (In fact, I'm closer to narcissistic/obssessive-compulsive than anything). She's very traditional. Too 's' for my taste, in fact, and whenever I question tradition, we would get into a fight. I think she hates my disdain for wasteful spiritual habits more than anything, and as much as she claims to be disciplined, she dislikes my attitude towards emotional indulgence, and states that 'we're only human'. She constantly put words into my mouth, too.

My friends view me as smart, out-going with a dry and perhaps cynical sense of humor. Those who truly knows me would know that behind the aloof facade, I'm actually passionate and assertive, and I don't back down from confrontations.