Avoiding arrogance AND anxious doubt...any tips?

[ygolo]

My relationship with my pride is a funny one.

Pride is known as one of the deadly sins--I think for good reason.

Pride can blind one to other possibilies: better alternatives to the options one has accepted, better explanations for what is hapining in one's world, better understanding of the basic facts, better POV fo particular aspects of reality, etc.

But always thinking there is someone who is more knowledgable, more qualified, more cabable, more cometent, at whatever one's role is tiring, and can eventually hurt self-esteem.

Still, with nearly 7 billion people on the planet, it seems also likely to be true.

Not being certain (that is having doubt) that ones perspective is the one to keep, is the opposite of the pride to which I am refering.

Anyway, how does one deal with this reality?

Of not being closed minded due to pride, but not being anxious due to doubt?

Or to put it more positively, to have doubt, but be calm about it?

 

[LostInNerSpace]

I would agree. I'm very opinionated but never afraid to admit when I'm wrong, and never afraid to be wrong. I'm often wrong and I often admit I am wrong. It's no big deal. If someone shows me I am wrong, I update my thinking. It's an opportunity to learn. I find it's rare people will debate without their own pride getting in the way. I can't stand that kind of emotional exchange. This is why I enjoyed the debate on the existence of god.

 

[LostInNerSpace]

Of course, sometimes my way of presenting things is almost certain to put people on the defensive. On such occasions I have the subtlety of a bull in a China shop. That's more a question of style than arrogance.

This thread for example:

http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/politics-history-current-events/11859-future.html

I really had no interest in seriously debating this topic. Hence the Santa sarcasm. Almost gauranteed to put Reason on the defensive.

Is it arrogant if I don't particularly care if people might see this as arrogant behavior? I do make the effort, when I think it's appropriate to do so.

 

[matmos]

My relationship with my pride is a funny one.

Pride is known as one of the deadly sins--I think for good reason.

Pride can blind one to other possibilies: better alternatives to the options one has accepted, better explanations for what is hapining in one's world, better understanding of the basic facts, better POV fo particular aspects of reality, etc.

But always thinking there is someone who is more knowledgable, more qualified, more cabable, more cometent, at whatever one's role is tiring, and can eventually hurt self-esteem.

Still, with nearly 7 billion people on the planet, it seems also likely to be true.

Not being certain (that is having doubt) that ones perspective is the one to keep, is the opposite of the pride to which I am refering.

Anyway, how does one deal with this reality?

Of not being closed minded due to pride, but not being anxious due to doubt?

Or to put it more positively, to have doubt, but be calm about it?

Hey, Ygolo - how goes it? Well, hopes I!

It is interesting when people home in on one particular trait and isolate this as a cause of concern.

I've never believed it to be this simple. Negating "arrogance" seems strange; why not embrace humility?

Arrogance as a trait I find upsetting. Upsetting that some idiot thinks he's better! When obviously he's not. I am /lol. I jest, of course.

Equally I've known very arrogant (or egotistical?) characters that can talk the talk & walk the walk. But they have other, redeeming traits that make this less of an issue. And they are good company in the right doses.

Rather adopt an ethos that works. It is the combination of traits that is definitive (maybe), not one that sticks out shouting, "cure me and you got it made".

Does knowledge define worth; or lack of it? As an educated fellow I'm sure you'd concede there are a few things you don't know - even if your memory were actually capable of holding just the facts. Are you defined by this lack of knowledge or do you hang on to the bric-a-brac that gives you 1-up on the nesxt fellow?

Does it really matter when they stick you in a coffin, anyway?

All the best for 2009.

Incidently, I found this on a site the other day: Ethos & Beliefs : History & Ethos : Royal Marines Home

 

[LostInNerSpace]

Hey, Ygolo - how goes it? Well, hopes I!

It is interesting when people home in on one particular trait and isolate this as a cause of concern.

I've never believed it to be this simple. Negating "arrogance" seems strange; why not embrace humility?

Arrogance as a trait I find upsetting. Upsetting that some idiot thinks he's better! When obviously he's not. I am /lol. I jest, of course.

Equally I've known very arrogant (or egotistical?) characters that can talk the talk & walk the walk. But they have other, redeeming traits that make this less of an issue. And they are good company in the right doses.

Rather adopt an ethos that works. It is the combination of traits that is definitive (maybe), not one that sticks out shouting, "cure me and you got it made".

Does knowledge define worth; or lack of it? As an educated fellow I'm sure you'd concede there are a few things you don't know - even if your memory were actually capable of holding just the facts. Are you defined by this lack of knowledge or do you hang on to the bric-a-brac that gives you 1-up on the nesxt fellow?

Does it really matter when they stick you in a coffin, anyway?

All the best for 2009.

Incidently, I found this on a site the other day: Ethos & Beliefs : History & Ethos : Royal Marines Home

I think you're right. The reason I don't have a lot of friend is because I tend to alienate them, often intentionally. I will do outrageous things and tell myself I just wanted to see how they would react. In reality, I don't even think I know why I do it.

 

[garbage]

This is something that I struggle with myself.

Long and short of it, I've found that all I can do is maintain that my perspective is the correct one until I get information to the contrary. I learn and shape it naturally through experience, reading and studying, and conversing with others.

Even if there's someone who's better than you at something, you're still a worthwhile human being.

I'm sure I'll have more to say later on.

 

[INTJMom]

Isn't pride a religious idea, and therefore something your religion would be best at helping you with?

 

[ygolo]

I suppose I am reffereing to "closed minded certitude," which was a phrase coined on this forum regarding both INT types.

But I am mainly interested in maintaining the necessary doubt without being anxious about the doubt.

What are some techniques to achieve that?

To think, really think, not just calculate, without worrying.

An interesting thin about Ethos being about "what we do, and how we do it" is that it flies in the face of being a "human being not a human doing" and the idea of "unconditional infinite equal human worth."

 

[matmos]

But I am mainly interested in maintaining the necessary doubt without being anxious about the doubt.

Why are you anxious; will such anxiety alter the outcome?

Are you talking professionally? If you are involved in research, unexpected things are often good. Rarely bad.

If you are a banker, however...

Why worry about risk when there is none.

 

[reason]

Or to put it more positively, to have doubt, but be calm about it?

Many people seek knowledge to attain certainty, but rather than being the goal of rational inquiry, it seems to me that certainty is more often a barrier to it. People are regularly certain of one thing or another, including that others, equally certain of opposing views, are mistaken. When such is noted, it should be clear that certainty offers no insurance against mistakes, and one would rather be uncertain and right than certain and wrong.

It is an interesting quirk of much of modern philosophy that certainty, while being derided in a religious fanatic, is often the implicit goal of inquiry. Often it is said that one cannot be absolutely certain (usually because there is not enough evidence), and yet the goal of increasing certainty is retained. This, I think, is a mistake--a vestigial assumption carried over from old volumes on metaphysics and epistemology.

 

[Anja]

The key for me, Ygolo, was learning not to measure my worth by someone else's yardstick. As I get to know myself I have a better understanding of what I am capable of and where my limitations lie.

Then, instead of comparing myself to someone else, I measure my progress by my own goals and capabilities. This produces a more honest and realistic viewpoint of how I'm doing.

What shows on the outside to others? I hope a balanced human who knows, accepts and challenges himself.

When I was in my twenties and thirties I was confronted several times with wearing an arrogant presentation. That puzzled me because I wasn't aware of feeling arrogant.

In time I figured out that when I encountered a situation I was unsure of that appearance of arrogance would show to others. It was a defense, apparently. An attempt to appear competent when I was afraid that I wasn't. It was actually fear which was misinterpreted by those around me because I was trying to hide it.

What a social mess that would create! It held me apart from others in the need to protect my "secret" and caused others to feel wary in my presence.

As I've gotten to know myself better and learned coping skills for different types of social situations I have dropped that fear of managing in unfamiliar situations.

I've learned to say, "I don't know." or "Give me your thoughts on this." And with that I have learned to function interactionally, getting external feedback from others while I monitor myself and my perceptions.

 

[LostInNerSpace]

I suppose I am reffereing to "closed minded certitude," which was a phrase coined on this forum regarding both INT types.

What are some techniques to achieve that?

You answered your own question when you talked about your relationship with your pride. If you can't admit the other person is right, learn to walk away from the argument when you know they are making sense.

 

[Travo7]

My relationship with my pride is a funny one.

Pride is known as one of the deadly sins--I think for good reason.

Pride can blind one to other possibilies: better alternatives to the options one has accepted, better explanations for what is hapining in one's world, better understanding of the basic facts, better POV fo particular aspects of reality, etc.

But always thinking there is someone who is more knowledgable, more qualified, more cabable, more cometent, at whatever one's role is tiring, and can eventually hurt self-esteem.

Still, with nearly 7 billion people on the planet, it seems also likely to be true.

Not being certain (that is having doubt) that ones perspective is the one to keep, is the opposite of the pride to which I am refering.

Anyway, how does one deal with this reality?

Of not being closed minded due to pride, but not being anxious due to doubt?

Or to put it more positively, to have doubt, but be calm about it?

I see what you're saying. I think this way too.

IMO, well, at least for me, I try to "keep an open mind" to the possibility that one could know more than me, or not, in certain areas, related to my interests or they could know more in other areas that are not my interest.
this way I believe everyone knows and doesn't know more than I do.
people are often multi-faceted in this way, and often you can learn something valuable from the most apparently "incompetent" people. Life and it's many aspects are too vast to say that one knows more than the other, without getting into specific fields of knowledge.

A lot of confusion may arise from the fact that many people also staunchly believe that their views/opinions/ideals are the best ones, and unwillingly (unkowingly?) close themselves off from differing perspectives. That and also cultural definitions of the valuable content, and nature of knowledge can have great influence on one's self perception.

I guess knowing that others aren't as "competent" as they would have you believe is key here, as far as being able to be calm about it.

Again this works for me, I can't say if this will help you at all. Interesting topic.

 

[LostInNerSpace]

The key for me, Ygolo, was learning not to measure my worth by someone else's yardstick. As I get to know myself I have a better understanding of what I am capable of and where my limitations lie.

Then, instead of comparing myself to someone else, I measure my progress by my own goals and capabilities. This produces a more honest and realistic viewpoint of how I'm doing.

What shows on the outside to others? I hope a balanced human who knows, accepts and challenges himself.

When I was in my twenties and thirties I was confronted several times with wearing an arrogant presentation. That puzzled me because I wasn't aware of feeling arrogant.

In time I figured out that when I encountered a situation I was unsure of that appearance of arrogance would show to others. It was a defense, apparently. An attempt to appear competent when I was afraid that I wasn't. It was actually fear which was misinterpreted by those around me because I was trying to hide it.

What a social mess that would create! It held me apart from others in the need to protect my "secret" and caused others to feel wary in my presence.

As I've gotten to know myself better and learned coping skills for different types of social situations I have dropped that fear of managing in unfamiliar situations.

I've learned to say, "I don't know." or "Give me your thoughts on this." And with that I have learned to function interactionally, getting external feedback from others while I monitor myself and my perceptions.

This makes sense. I constantly question my own competence. But I freely admit it. It drives me towards achieving more and more. It makes me wonder what drives other people forward without that need to make more money and achieve more success. Some people will say there is something wrong with wanting to make more money and be more successful. I disagree. I think humans are inherently competitive, and I want to play this game. This is like sport for me.

I regularly say "I don't know." or "Give me your thoughts." . I make a point of it. I know some people see me as arrogant. Maybe sometimes I can be a little arrogant. I'm not going to issue a blanket apology. Everyone has weaknesses. I know my limits and my weaknesses and I think overall I do a pretty good job of keeping my ego in check. More so than a lot of people.

I don't think it's realistic to say we should not compare ourselves with other people. That's just how we are wired. Pretty much everything we perceive is interpreted on a relative basis.

 

[nightning]

Does it have so much to do with open-mindedness / uncertainty as it does for getting an accurate gauge on your skills and abilities?

How does arrogance hamper with progress? Only if you're arrogant without substance to back up your attitude. Nobody grudges an arrogant genius... It goes with the position.

Perhaps the two issues are being confused here. It's not so much arrogance as complacence that slows us down. After all, you can look down upon others and still see the need to better yourself...

 

[LostInNerSpace]

Does it have so much to do with open-mindedness / uncertainty as it does for getting an accurate gauge on your skills and abilities?

Who's skills and abilities? One's own skills and abilities, or the skills and abilities of arrogant people?

 

[nightning]

Who's skills and abilities? One's own skills and abilities, or the skills and abilities of arrogant people?

I'm assuming it your own skills and abilities rather than thinking about whether you're overly arrogant or doubtful of one self. That was ygolo's question.

 

[ygolo]

Does it have so much to do with open-mindedness / uncertainty as it does for getting an accurate gauge on your skills and abilities?

How does arrogance hamper with progress? Only if you're arrogant without substance to back up your attitude. Nobody grudges an arrogant genius... It goes with the position.

Perhaps the two issues are being confused here. It's not so much arrogance as complacence that slows us down. After all, you can look down upon others and still see the need to better yourself...

I'm not sure how skills play a role in this. I am mainly talking about perspective.

Also, geniuses are bregudged quite often, arrogant or not.

B. Fuller was moments away from drowning himself. Newton had a nervous break dewn before writing the Principia, a falure as a farmer, and a mediocre student; as an adult he spent more time on Alchemy than Physics, and was taken in by the Tulip Bulb scheme, and generally dislike by many of his peers. Einstein lectured to empty rooms, and was not regarded as much od a scientist till his theories proved true. Darwin was thought by his father to be a failure at life.

 

[LucrativeSid]

I just think of my perspective as my perspective. I don't judge it. Every human has their own brain so it just doesn't make sense to assume we're all meant to believe the same things or that there is one ultimate truth about any one certain thing. I wonder a lot more than I doubt. Why take a belief personally and be all sentimental about it? We believe things and come to our own conclusions so we can navigate through life. If I have to take action, I have to trust myself and my own rationalizations because that's all I've got to work with. I'm focusing more on what the conclusions allow me to experience rather than what they mean on their own, so there's really no room for pride and doubt. It's desire and wonder.

For example, when you get in your car to go somewhere, you don't get all paranoid and check every single part of your car to make sure it's in perfect working order. You just assume it's good enough to take you where you're going because you're smart enough to take care of your car as you go. If you find a problem, or it breaks down, then you fix it and keep going.

But your car is just a tool, like your rational and conscious mind. It won't be perfect, but you can still use it. What's important is that it takes you where you want to go. The awesome thing, though, is that unlike a car, you can upgrade your brain for free.

 

[ygolo]

I just think of my perspective as my perspective. I don't judge it. Every human has their own brain so it just doesn't make sense to assume we're all meant to believe the same things or that there is one ultimate truth about any one certain thing. I wonder a lot more than I doubt. Why take a belief personally and be all sentimental about it? We believe things and come to our own conclusions so we can navigate through life. If I have to take action, I have to trust myself and my own rationalizations because that's all I've got to work with. I'm focusing more on what the conclusions allow me to experience rather than what they mean on their own, so there's really no room for pride and doubt. It's desire and wonder.

For example, when you get in your car to go somewhere, you don't get all paranoid and check every single part of your car to make sure it's in perfect working order. You just assume it's good enough to take you where you're going because you're smart enough to take care of your car as you go. If you find a problem, or it breaks down, then you fix it and keep going.

But your car is just a tool, like your rational and conscious mind. It won't be perfect, but you can still use it. What's important is that it takes you where you want to go. The awesome thing, though, is that unlike a car, you can upgrade your brain for free.

I understand what you, and may others are getting at. It's good if you can live anxiety free that way.

But in the example of your car, there are the original desinger who did have to worry about all sorts of stuff. It was then built on an assembly line where they had to worry about defects. Then these cars were mass produced, so that people like us don't have to worry too much about these things. But when your perspective changes, it is hard not to worry.

I know an Air Force captain, who hates flying because he knows too much about planes.

I like the idea of not judging my own perspective. But, sometimes, I feel obliged to hold that perspective together, despite there being a constant onslaught against it. There is often a need to justify my perspective on things, because people usually only understand a small fraction of what I am trying to relate.