Is MBTI a Cult?

[Orangey]

It is of course deeply dangerous to partake of knowledge that may lead to greater self-understanding.

The story of Genesis is by no means a literal depiction of creation, but a metaphorical one. And we know how fond Victor is of metaphors. And we can presume by his style of posting that he has read the Holy Book more times than once.

And the story of Adam and Eve is the story of how Man's intellectual curiosity (let us not be politically correct here) led to his downfall.

For who ate of the forbidden fruit gained knowledge of good and evil, and became ashamed of themselves, seeing for the first time what potential was inside them.

And when Adam and Eve clothed their nekkidness, they were masking not only their physical bodies from the piercing sight of others, but their pure souls from the piercing gaze of the judgemental human intellect.

And the Fall was not only a fall from a primeval state of bliss, but a fall into the material world, and a state of bondage and thralldom.

And this thralldom is principally unto our own intellects, which create material demands that must be satisfied, and distance us from being free to simply experience what is.

Victor would like us to return to that state of primeval bliss, of simply being free to be, and is here to show us the way. Which is very naughty of him.

For the desire to know oneself is good, but the use of the false tools created by the perverted intellect of Man to achieve this, is Bad.

I, like Victor, am very naughty.

You are also not a nice girl.

 

[ragashree]

You are also not a nice girl.

*my apologies*

 

[Salomé]

It is of course deeply dangerous to partake of knowledge that may lead to greater self-understanding.

The story of Genesis is by no means a literal depiction of creation, but a metaphorical one. And we know how fond Victor is of metaphors. And we can presume by his style of posting that he has read the Holy Book more times than once.

And the story of Adam and Eve is the story of how Man's intellectual curiosity (let us not be politically correct here) led to his downfall.

For who ate of the forbidden fruit gained knowledge of good and evil, and became ashamed of themselves, seeing for the first time what potential was inside them.

And when Adam and Eve clothed their nekkidness, they were masking not only their physical bodies from the piercing sight of others, but their pure souls from the piercing gaze of the judgemental human intellect.

And the Fall was not only a fall from a primeval state of bliss, but a fall into the material world, and a state of bondage and thralldom.

And this thralldom is principally unto our own intellects, which create material demands that must be satisfied, and distance us from being free to simply experience what is.

Victor would like us to return to that state of primeval bliss, of simply being free to be, and is here to show us the way. Which is very naughty of him.

For the desire to know oneself is good, but the use of the false tools created by the perverted intellect of Man to achieve this, is Bad.

I, like Victor, am very naughty.

Quel superb!

 

[Skyward]

It is of course deeply dangerous to partake of knowledge that may lead to greater self-understanding.

The story of Genesis is by no means a literal depiction of creation, but a metaphorical one. And we know how fond Victor is of metaphors. And we can presume by his style of posting that he has read the Holy Book more times than once.

And the story of Adam and Eve is the story of how Man's intellectual curiosity (let us not be politically correct here) led to his downfall.

For who ate of the forbidden fruit gained knowledge of good and evil, and became ashamed of themselves, seeing for the first time what potential was inside them.

And when Adam and Eve clothed their nekkidness, they were masking not only their physical bodies from the piercing sight of others, but their pure souls from the piercing gaze of the judgemental human intellect.

And the Fall was not only a fall from a primeval state of bliss, but a fall into the material world, and a state of bondage and thralldom.

And this thralldom is principally unto our own intellects, which create material demands that must be satisfied, and distance us from being free to simply experience what is.

Victor would like us to return to that state of primeval bliss, of simply being free to be, and is here to show us the way. Which is very naughty of him.

For the desire to know oneself is good, but the use of the false tools created by the perverted intellect of Man to achieve this, is Bad.

I, like Victor, am very naughty.

I thought the Adam and Eve story was about how we evolved from monkeys

 

[Nillerz]

Victor's avatar is cross-eyed and that's silly.

I actually have a cult. It's k-rad. I use the MBTI test alot in it. So there ya go.

 

[Prototype]

"It is of course deeply dangerous to partake of knowledge that may lead to greater self-understanding."

That's absurd!

 

[Salomé]

^ See Irony.

 

[Xander]

Victor, has it not occurred that were you to consider that you may be wrong about the whole cult thing then others may be more likely to consider your words as not one of some radical conspiracy theorist but actually something thought out and constructed well.

Personally I disagree with the cult idea but I'm open to the idea that this may be because of how it was introduced to me and that perhaps I am lacking on my exposure to the more zealot elements. There again I would repeat my challenge to your own validation of so called qualified psychometricians. In terms of qualifications there does seem to be a fair few people trained in psychology who seem to think that the MBTI is worthwhile.

Of course the practical side of me would challenge that if the MBTI is somehow flawed by it's "cult" element then how does it produce the results it does or do you side with those who tend to think that people validate their behaviour by their type and hence become their own self fulfilling prophet?

 

[Mole]

Victor, has it not occurred that were you to consider that you may be wrong about the whole cult thing then others may be more likely to consider your words as not one of some radical conspiracy theorist but actually something thought out and constructed well.

Personally I disagree with the cult idea but I'm open to the idea that this may be because of how it was introduced to me and that perhaps I am lacking on my exposure to the more zealot elements. There again I would repeat my challenge to your own validation of so called qualified psychometricians. In terms of qualifications there does seem to be a fair few people trained in psychology who seem to think that the MBTI is worthwhile.

Of course the practical side of me would challenge that if the MBTI is somehow flawed by it's "cult" element then how does it produce the results it does or do you side with those who tend to think that people validate their behaviour by their type and hence become their own self fulfilling prophet?

You must know that to apply a personality test to oneself will not give valid results.

And for an untrained and unqualified person to give a personality test to another will give invalid results.

And to apply a personality test to someone you don't know is absurd.

So I must ask why is a personality test being applied in this way across the world?

Part of the answer lies in its history. And part of the answer lies in a social movement.

Of course personality tests do have their uses. But it is vital to know their limitations otherwise they become absurd or articles of belief in a world wide cult.

Also personality tests need to be designed by University trained psychometricians and administered in a professional setting.

MBTI meets none of these qualifications.

In fact MBTI is used in exactly the same way the Zodiac is used.

And both the Zodiac and MBTI are popular across the world.

Why is this?

Both are pseudo science - the Zodiac is pseudo astronomy and MBTI is pseudo psychology.

And both appeal to gullible narcissism.

 

[Mole]

But its worse than that.

Both the Zodiac and MBTI are defences against our unconscious.

And the electronic media are now making the unconscious, conscious. Just as in any tribe.

But for 200 years literacy has dissociated our conscious and our unconscious.

But right now our conscious and unconscious are imploding under the impact of the electronic media.

And so in our desperation we reach around for anything that will maintain our dissociation.

In the larger sphere we reach for totalitarian solutions like communism or nazism and now militant islam.

And in the personal sphere we reach for the zodiac or mbti.

With our inner world imploding around us, naturally we are subject to frights and alarms.

And so we are susceptible to any fake nostrum offered us.

So how can we keep our head when all the rest are losing theirs?

 

[Xander]

Victor, if you can show me something which is purely objective then perhaps the MBTI is flawed in the manner in which you state. If not then aren't all things based upon belief and subscription of some kind? How is it that this belief is so much worse than all the others?

 

[INTJMom]

I was invited to join MBTI Central by Geoff after he had read my posts on the site called, "Gifted and Talented Talk".

Geoff told us that MBTI Central was well run and tolerant. And it is.

But having joined MBTI Central, I then began to research MBTI and its history.

And of course I thought that the members of MBTI Central would be vitally interested in the history of MBTI itself. But I was wrong.

Almost all the members are vitally interested in maintaining the reputation of MBTI. And they see any discussion of the history of MBTI as an attack on the reputation of MBTI.

But even more important most members identify with MBTI in exactly the same way any member identifies with any cult. And so naturally they feel any critique of the cult is a personal attack on them and their integrity.

I must admit I find this intellectually disorienting - and I can't quite believe it is taking place in front of my eyes.

I suspect I am naive.

On the other hand, I enjoy posting here. And I think the group interactions are important.

The only price I pay for my enjoyment is cognitive dissonance.

And I know that cognitive dissonance is a sign I am learning something.

But so far, I don't know what it is.

If you were not kidding and actually think MBTI is a cult, then I have to conclude that you are just amusing yourself with a conspiracy theory-like discussion.

cult
n.

1. 1. A religion or religious sect generally considered to be extremist or false, with its followers often living in an unconventional manner under the guidance of an authoritarian, charismatic leader.
   2. The followers of such a religion or sect.
2. A system or community of religious worship and ritual.
3. The formal means of expressing religious reverence; religious ceremony and ritual.
4. A usually nonscientific method or regimen claimed by its originator to have exclusive or exceptional power in curing a particular disease.
5. 1. Obsessive, especially faddish, devotion to or veneration for a person, principle, or thing.
   2. The object of such devotion.
6. An exclusive group of persons sharing an esoteric, usually artistic or intellectual interest.

Definition #6 is the only way the word "cult" could possibly apply here.
And in that case, it's not worth calling it a cult at all.

MBTI is a tool for understanding people, reducing conflict and fostering understanding.

 

[rhinosaur]

INTJMom is a cult of personality.

 

[Salomé]

Both are pseudo science - the Zodiac is pseudo astronomy and MBTI is pseudo psychology.

Both the Zodiac and MBTI are defences against our unconscious.

First it's a cult, now it's pseudo-science? Stop being so emotive and try being rational.

It's a theory. Like all theories, it will live or die by its utility in the real world. It is a useful model for understanding some aspects of normal human behaviour, based upon observation, no more, no less. It doesn't offer prophecy, it doesn't prescribe a way of life. It doesn't give us the answers, just a framework to hang ideas upon. At worst it fosters segregation, elitism, prejudice - but only in those with a pre-existing propensity - such was not the intention of its founders.

What people are looking for is self-knowledge. How is MBTI a defence against the unconscious? And if MBTI has no merit, why only argue against self-testing - surely all such testing is invalid? Try to be more disciplined in your attack.

Your critique of Jung has no value. Whilst he might have inspired MBTI, his writing clearly states that he was not in favour of such an instrument. Besides which, typologies have existed since the time of the ancient Greeks, at least. Classification/categorization is the beginning of scientific knowledge, it is the beginning of all knowledge. It is how our minds work, how we make sense of the world. Are you saying the Aristotelian approach is unscientific?

You seem to imply that typologies such as MBTI are dangerous in some way. Can you expand on your reasons/give examples of how this might be the case?

FYI, there is a reasonable (though flawed) critique of MBTI here.

 

[Cameigons]

bluemonday said it all! Please Victor give us a proper reply there..


I'm not sure you can call MBTI pseudoscience since we are all(or should be all) conscious that it's not scientifically proved, and pseudoscience is something that try to pass itself as such.

Sorry but, it seems to me you have acquired your opinions from someone you consider wise/versed and are repeating them here... but you lack the fundaments to defend those opinions so you just keep repeating the outlines over and over.

I would suggest you ask a Sociologist with a doctorate. And I would expect they would tell you it is a popular world wide cult with a guru and followers.

I would suggest you to actually study psychology and sociology, noone owns the truth just because they've got a diploma.
Sociology and psychology are not monolithic blocks of knowledge where all its integrative theories agree with one another or complement each other and there exist only incontestable truths which everyone inside the field accept. Doesn't quite work that way.

Philosophically speaking, science is also a "creed" Victor. It is the best damn creed we have, superior to all others IMO, but still a creed.
I'm not bullshitting you, you can find expositions about that on Carl Sagan or Karl Popper books.
Another thing, you must know that the Scientific Method itself is constant subject of research and improvement.
Also just because something doesn't fit within the realms of science today doesn't mean it couldn't in the future(but let's not get crazy here ), and also doesn't mean it's not true(in a broad sense).

And I'm not saying all this as someone attacking science, I'm someone who loves it actually, with scientific education and hoping to get a decent job in research soon Science is my religion..

You must know that to apply a personality test to oneself will not give valid results.

And for an untrained and unqualified person to give a personality test to another will give invalid results.

And to apply a personality test to someone you don't know is absurd.

So I must ask why is a personality test being applied in this way across the world?

Why do you believe that to be an unquestionable truth applicable to all cases in the whole known universe?
What are valid results? Why the underlying theory of validation is acceptable?
Just rhetorical questions.

Part of the answer lies in its history. And part of the answer lies in a social movement.

Of course personality tests do have their uses. But it is vital to know their limitations otherwise they become absurd or articles of belief in a world wide cult.

Are you sure MBTI has no limitations? How can you be sure of that, since it's clear to us you're knowledge on MBTI is still superficial.

Also personality tests need to be designed by University trained psychometricians and administered in a professional setting.

Why?

I'm not questioning you because I necessarily disagree with you, I'm questioning you because you, the brave crusader against pseudosciences and new-age cults who can only be a follower of science, seem to defend stuff blindly just because it is labeled as scientific knowledge or because someone with a PhD told you so(without demonstration).


I'm very sorry if I'm completely wrong on my assumptions about you, everyone makes mistakes

 

[Mole]

In-i

Juliette Binoche and Akram Khan are engaged in a strangely flawed medium.

Just as we are engaged in this strangely flawed medium where we are using an electronic medium for text.

And Juliette and Akram are combining acting and dance together. Juliette is an actress learning to dance and Akram is a dancer learning to act - they are teaching each other. And before long we will be able to see them together - even in Oz.

Dance speaks in a different way and words often destroy the fragile world dance can build. Words engage a different part of our brain where we strive for meaning and understanding in a literal way. The way we experience dance is more related to music - it's emotive and creates a mood.

And words and dance can speak to each other. And their conversation is extraordinary for they are mutually inhibitory.

At the level of personality they inhibit each other - the life of one means the death of the other.

It's a matter of life or death.

So in order to survive - in order to thrive - they need to move beyond the level of personality.

And this is what Juliette Binoche and Akram Khan do in their performance of, "In-i".

And this is what we can do.

 

[Cameigons]

Ok, I loved that, you won me over.

 

[BlueScreen]

Yes, it is a world wide cult. It is even used at my Catholic University.

I have noticed it is very popular with rebellious nuns who can't quite bring themselves to abandon Catholicism, but smuggle MBTI and the New Age in the back door.

You may be surprised how many New Age workshops are conducted at my Catholic University.

And I can tell you there are no workshops on doubt and dissent. And skeptical inquiry is unknown.

My University has been dumbed down by the New Age and is really no more than a theological college.

It seems people hate learning for the same reason they hate exercise - so we become obese and dumb.

I can see a conflict of interest here. Is your argument against cults one of humanity or religion?

Also what sort of psychology do you learn at your Catholic University and is it one of the more recognised universities for psychology world wide?

 

[raz]

I didn't know this thread was created with my old post in mind. Wow.

 

[Ezion]

It sounds like Victor is against using the MBTI in much the same way that religion can be used (as a tool to put people into boxes).

However, one of the generally accepted premises of the MBTI theory is that it should not be used to put people into boxes. It can have great descriptive power, and the types can correspond with a general "canvas" your personality is painted upon, but ultimately the MBTI theory and its followers accept that it, like any theory, is flawed and will never be 100% accurate.

Also personality tests need to be designed by University trained psychometricians and administered in a professional setting.

This sounds absurd in every meaning I try to derive from it. Please elaborate on this.

Also, Victor seems to have a habit of avoiding arguments and spouting off almost relevant subjective expressions. It is important to note, that, should you be attempting to convince anyone of the legitimacy of your views, actual illustration and logical arguments are required. We cannot peek inside of your head to determine the data you have absorbed that leads you to your conclusions.

(I realize that there is a high probability Victor is a troll. But what use are trolls if you don't poke them ever so often?)