[ESTP] ESTP Intimidation

[sarah]

Sarah, I've loved your posts and... well... you sound a lot like me (but nicer ) and my complaints about the S/N issue... But, do you think your description is a fair assessment of the OP? In reading the OP now, I can see how that interpretation is possible, but I'd suggest that his post can be seen as sort of a blank canvas. It reflects what we feel more than what he meant. Even more to the point, he clarified what he was feeling after that, generalising the situation.

The most interesting thing about it is you can see the sensitivity effect - his first line refers to "xNTJs" being intimidating because those threads exist already. And that was way more personal, not even subject to interpretation.

The removal of discrimination is the acceptance that we are equal in treatment, and I feel that in this case there was no case of discrimination - this was more about type breakdown than poor stereotypes. And no one rejected his stereotype at all, just said he was wrong. But how can be wrong about how he felt?

The big question is if anyone has the occupational breakdown from CAPT (Atlas of Type Tables) to actually make the argument that garages do not tend to be ESTP, or at least STP, and thus to explain how he felt. This is especially poignant when he clarified that he meant the environment, not the individuals.

Yeah, okay... I see your point. I really wasn't trying to be "down" on the OP. I guess I'm baffled as to how anyone can claim confidently to know the type of everyone they meet. It's taken me years to figure out the best type fit for myself and people in my immediate family, despite the fact that I know myself and my relatives quite intimately. If I look at a stranger who seems to be the embodiment of a stereotypical Type XXXX (based on my knowledge of popular type descriptions), I might be right in assuming they fit the XXXX type pattern, or I might not be.

If we're just talking about rudeness and machismo and feeling intimidated by that, what does that have to do with the ESTP type pattern? People of any type can act rude and macho. So what?

Sarah

 

[sakuraba]

My two cents:

I do not think that it is a trait for many, if not most, Ps to ever try or care to be intimidating.

It is just not what we are about, that is, forcefully, or intentionally intimidating others.

Sure, people might *feel* or *be* intimidated by an ESTP, but that has no bearing on whether or not the ESTP is trying to be intimidating.

Speak for yourself. Who is this "we" you are talking about. Not all P's are the same.

Look at someone like a Tony Soprano, John Gotti, Al Capone. Though ESTP's are usually more charming than intimidating, there is certainly potential for it.
ISTP's are some of the most intimidating people out there. 50 Cent for example.

Enneagram has more to do with it. ESTP's usually fall under 3, 7, or 8. The latter two can be intimidating. ISTP falls under 6. If they're counterphobic 6's, damn right they will be intimidating.

 

[Unique]

The poor type research and stereotyping is what bothered me about the OP. Not the fact that he wants to talk about ESTPs. (In my opinion though he never wanted to have a peaceful discussion with us.)

Had he have come here asking "ESTPs... do you do this?" then fair enough but thats not the case he accused us of being something we are not (more likely ISTPs) rather than saying "Do any of you realize how scary you can be??"

Even if I was an ISTP (or any type for that matter) I would of been offended by the OP

As cafe put, I don't mind healthy conversation about a type and this thread has some good discussion in it now but the OPs post was offensive. If you don't know something about a type you should either ask here or research, not start pointing fingers going "you guys are scary".

That stuff aside I'm going to be blunt, if the OP doesn't know much about the ESTP type and wants to find out about us. He need only ask and me (and the 1-2 other ESTPs lol) and we will be happy to reply.

The fixt version. Enjoy!

"What scares me is going to get my car fixed.

I'm certainly no sissy myself, but when I go into the garage and find myself confronted with all these guys covered in grease and smelling and looking terribly manly, and I stand there waiting for someone to notice I'm there and they just carry on with their "throwing coins at each other across the reception room with no apparent regard for the customers standing between us" game, so that I'm forced to wait around awkwardly or try to catch someone's attention, and the guy asks me loads of questions involving arcane practical, mechanical, manly knowledge, rolling his eyes at my ignorance, while his workmate DELIBERATELY (I swear!) times his use of a noisy tool with my turns to speak - and he says "okay come back and get it tomorrow morning" with a friendly thump on my shoulder that almost has me knocked onto the floor... well. It's enough to make me feel positively metrosexual - or at least, hideously inadequate.

See, all the "me" that would usually be full of counter-bluster and witty replies seems to crumble and disappear under the frank and vaguely pitying gaze (how can you not know what a calliper is? are you some kind of retard? oh, you poor intellectual fool, you never learned the important facts of life did you?, he seems to say) of the benevolent yet awesome-in-a-scary-way and I find myself babbling or just remaining silent!

My question: Is there a type that would be more likely to act this way? Thanks!"

And you said it again, it's a mindset that has been created on stereotypes and poor descriptions. I will give you a prime example in how many ISTPs who had admitted that they are not mechanically inclined. On INTPc there are a number of INTPs who in past years have admitted to not being mathematically inclined. Not all ESFPs are wild party-goers. In fact the only ESFP I know is a bit of a prude. These are biases that were never articulated by Jung or Myers-Briggs. In fact Myers-Briggs describes both ESPs as being the ultimate realists. Okay off the soap box because as some have said, of all forums that I have visited over the years, Typologyc has less biases than other forums. I think that is because we do have a more diverse group posting here. Thanks for your input.

Exactly right I don't think all ISTPs are going to be mechanically inclined either. This thread should of been a healthy discussion about ISTPs originally anyway I think

 

[alcea rosea]

ESTP intimidation doesn't get a hold of me. Maybe because I'm a female, maybe because I'm used to interact with SP's and maybe because I'm not taking it seriously. I mean ESTP's are fun people and should be taken that way.

I don't know why but I feel very easy to handle SP's (or to interact with them), even the xSTP's. My F or anything doesn't somehow get bothered with them at all. Maybe it's because I do hae a lifelong experience with SP's meaning that I always had at least one SP in my closest family....

I do think most SP's have very strong precence (except maybe ISFP's because I don't know many). They make their presence felt unlike many types and I think that can bother a lot of people. ESTP's in their very involved way, ISTPs in their very detached way and the ESFP's in their intensity of life. I overall find SP's very refreshing because they generally have the intensity in real life that I very much lack.

 

[yenom]

Intimidation comes form a state of mind. No one can inject fear into your brain.
I see people who stand in front of tanks and never move a step of retreat, it all depends how you think and what you do about it.

 

[lorkan]

I don't see the negative implications of the OP. What sensors may ask in the future would be: are you sure they were ESTP's?

And instead of getting very pissed of that he did not do a good enough research (wich I think he did, it sounded very much like ESTP's), you should try to R E F L E C T on wether he REALLY has right or wrong and not just appear even more intimidating by mentioning that you get pissed of at what you (Se)e.

 

[Unique]

I don't see the negative implications of the OP. What sensors may ask in the future would be: are you sure they were ESTP's?

And instead of getting very pissed of that he did not do a good enough research (wich I think he did, it sounded very much like ESTP's), you should try to R E F L E C T on wether he REALLY has right or wrong and not just appear even more intimidating by mentioning that you get pissed of at what you (Se)e.

Ok let me reflect for a moment.

...
...
...

Ok done, the OP is wrong.

He is talking about ISTPs in fact (which we can only try to guess from the information he provided which isn't that much... and its just having a stab at ISTPs anyway, so I don't care much for it)

Also I have proof he isn't talking about ESTPs. You have nothing but your opinion. Would you like some respectable website references?

 

[ptgatsby]

He is talking about ISTPs in fact (which we can only try to guess from the information he provided which isn't that much... and its just having a stab at ISTPs)

So his "stereotype", based on direct experience and generalised beyond just the "mechanical" part is less accurate than your stereotype in which you weren't there, based on his perception, at a distance? Nothing he said describes ISTPs as I know them, or myself.

The point of the thread was that in environments with ESTPs, he feels intimidated. Not that mechanics are ESTPs, only that his example had ESTPs that were mechanics... not that all ESTPs are rude or something, but that their social atmosphere makes him feel out of place... and so on.

 

[Unique]

So his "stereotype", based on direct experience and generalised beyond just the "mechanical" part is less accurate than your stereotype in which you weren't there, based on his perception, at a distance? Nothing he said describes ISTPs as I know them, or myself.

The point of the thread was that in environments with ESTPs, he feels intimidated. Not that mechanics are ESTPs, only that his example had ESTPs that were mechanics... not that all ESTPs are rude or something, but that their social atmosphere makes him feel out of place... and so on.

Unlike the OP I actually said my theory was a guess. Did you miss that part?

The thread had no point otherwise he would still be posting in it AFTER the ESTPs came in, so that he could get an answer to any questions he might have.

oh wait... his question was " DO YOU GUYS REALISE HOW SCARY YOU ARE LOL?!" [/exaggeration]

 

[me_plus_one]

My two cents:

I do not think that it is a trait for many, if not most, Ps to ever try or care to be intimidating.

It is just not what we are about, that is, forcefully, or intentionally intimidating others.

Sure, people might *feel* or *be* intimidated by an ESTP, but that has no bearing on whether or not the ESTP is trying to be intimidating.

I haven't really read this thread, and will peruse it after I post this, but I think that, in general, people tend to feel intimidated for a multitude of reasons and by certain people, due to their own sense of insecurity.

I would conjecture that the more confident one is, the less likely one will be inclined to feel intimidated by others.

That was my point exactly!

I do not agree with the one that started this topic, in my opinion this example is badly chosen even if he wants to point out that he feels intimidated by ESTP.
The impression his post left was more like "Omg, ESTP is such a crappy type, they are like so dumb, but they feel so smart just because they know what's inside a car".
This is what I understood from it and not it any case that he just felt awkward in their social environment, but again, this is just my point of view, my personal understanding of his "issue".


This is what I want to stress out:

- firstly, there is now way he could be sure those were ESTPs.
- secondly, I firmly believe that this behaviour is not a trait of ESTPs as it is encountered in many other types and I would say that is not even type related.
- thirdly, he was indeed stereotyping, IMO, on the base of preconceptions

Yeah, jump at my throat for stating those things. But I'll say once again, this is simply my opinion, I am not talking from a "know-it-all" perspective, unlike many other type-connoisseurs that wander around here.

I don't see the negative implications of the OP. What sensors may ask in the future would be: are you sure they were ESTP's?

And instead of getting very pissed of that he did not do a good enough research (wich I think he did, it sounded very much like ESTP's), you should try to R E F L E C T on wether he REALLY has right or wrong and not just appear even more intimidating by mentioning that you get pissed of at what you (Se)e.

He was not appearing intimidating to me, I simply perceived his posts as expressions of his opinions. Which proves once again that intimidation comes from one's own mind.

 

[Anja]

I would like to hear what sub has to say about this.

 

[ptgatsby]

Unlike the OP I actually said my theory was a guess. Did you miss that part?

No, didn't miss your use of stereotypes of my type earlier.

In fact, let me quote your stereotyping:

Car fixing is the wrong place to find ESTPs

Next time go try a car yard and THEN you will find ESTPs

ISTPs fix cars, ESTPs sell them.

See my point? No one reacted to it until you did. At which point you did the exact same thing you claim he did, except you did it in directly and in bold, while his was personal and actually had direct contact with the people he typed. You were the one that interjected strong typist comments into this thread.

As far as rude/negative issues goes, he never said they were rude. He was illustrating that they have this laid back rough and tumble approach and he felt horribly out of place. He didn't know how to interject himself into their world. He was the one who was out of place, not them.

And even better, you actually support the stereotype. So long as it is someone else. Rather insulting to me, actually:

ISTPs have a "brotherhood" feel about them. If you are not part of it, you get the cold treatment. Poor customer service aka people skills? sounds like a bunch of introverts to me.

I'll have you know my customer service skills actually won be awards, TYVM.

The worst transgression the OP made was the language choice to express the environments he was in, but you managed to invalidate his experiences with types he interacted with as well as how it made him feel. You didn't explain what would cause him to feel this way, that maybe it isn't all ESTP, etc. No, you attacked him by using rather insulting stereotypes of your own, to tell him that it's not ESTPs that are rude and so forth, but ISTPs.

It almost sounds like you look down on the 'ISTP's that do the job you associate them with. Maybe that's why you took offense to the ESTP connection?

Really, I honestly couldn't be bothered learning a single thing about cars, I would rather someone to fix my car for me so I can do something more productive.

I could read a lot into your words too, if I wanted.

 

[Unique]

I fail to see how I was rude in regards to your type. To me there's nothing wrong with fixing cars its just something I wouldn't do.

I wasn't stereotyping I was stating that introverts are more likely to have less people skills... thats just fact, hell its even in the introvert description on virtually every MBTI related site are you going to call them stereotypers? No? Didn't think so.

Maybe you are an introvert that has developed excellent people skills. That doesn't change the traits associated with most introverts which was all I was saying. The OP sounds like he was describing unhealthy ISTP types. (once again though there isn't enough info to know for sure if they are ISTPs)

The OP on the other hand assumed a bunch of mechanics were ESTPs he said they intimidating rude yada yada. Which MBTI related site says that ESTPs are rude or intimidating? None.

Which MBTI sites say that ISTPs are often mechanics? Lots.

See the difference?

 

[ptgatsby]

See the difference?

I see that you are very good at perpetuating stereotypes. You listed a bunch in your post and then rationalized them, supported them and called them fact. And that is why I want this thread to die - it causes exactly what I don't want to see.

 

[Unique]

I see that you are very good at perpetuating stereotypes. You listed a bunch in your post and then rationalized them, supported them and called them fact. And that is why I want this thread to die - it causes exactly what I don't want to see.

Well we agree on the fact that this thread should die but I wasn't stereotyping.

Do you think if someone called me outgoing cause I'm an E that I would say they are stereotyping? Thats all I was doing, saying facts. I never called any type some negative stereotype.

Unless being a mechanic or being introverted is a bad thing. Which of course it isn't.

 

[sade]

I would like to hear what sub has to say about this.

He's probably lost interest or forgotten this thread existed...
Or maybe he's being smart and staying out of it.

 

[Anja]

Well, there's a lot of speculation about what sub's intentions were and it makes it difficult to have a conversation if the OP isn't here to clarify.

I don't think sub would be the type to run away from it.

 

[ptgatsby]

He's probably lost interest or forgotten this thread existed...
Or maybe he's being smart and staying out of it.

I've come down hard on others before and Sub and I haven't agreed on my interpretation before, so we've talked about it at length in the past. Based on that...

My guess is that he is tired of having things like this construed as more than they are. When it happens, you throw up your hands and walk away from the forums for a while. I imagine that is what happened.

 

[sade]

When it happens, you throw up your hands and walk away from the forums for a while. I imagine that is what happened.

Yea.. That translates to being smart and staying out, at least in my mind.

 

[substitute]

Well, I came back from a freakishly busy RL to see a rather angry rep comment on my profile, I don't have time to read through the thread and see how it's descended into areas I didn't intend, but suffice it to say that I did NOT intend any type hate, but in fact distinctly said in many places that I felt my personal feeling of intimidation came mainly from my own ENVY and desire to actually be like the ESTP's, which is about as far from hating them as it possibly gets. I abandoned the thread when it became clear that I was not being understood and, after several failed attempts to amend the situation, nothing seemed to improve so I put it down to my inability to communicate on the right level and figured hey, it's only a bloody forum, I've got stuff to do. I hoped maybe eventually someone might get my point and set things straight if they could put it better than me, if that hasn't happened then I regret it, as I think I regret starting the thread at all.

I just hope it can be seen and believed that I absolutely do NOT support type hate/prejudice and that I have nothing but admiration and respect for ESTP's, that I don't have any problem with mechanics or the way they behave generally in these parts, and any issues I have such as feeling intimidated I acknowledge to spring from my own personal jealousy and desire for a life that I'm just not cut out for. My point had nothing to do with mechanics or customer service or manners, but everything to do with the general coolness, manliness and toughness of the average ESTP and how being confronted with those qualities makes me feel intimidated and inadequate simply because it makes me realize how much I lack them.

Peace out.