[MBTI General] NF Ideals vs. SJ Values

[ByMySword]

I'd most definitely sacrifice commonly-held public opinion of events (aka traditions) for the beliefs I hold closest to my heart.

I feel the same way, Brother.

There are traditions that are close to my heart, though.

Others I've found to be very trivial, and I've dropped them for ones I've found work better for me.

 

[Bella]

I feel the same way, Brother.

There are traditions that are close to my heart, though.

Others I've found to be very trivial, and I've dropped them for ones I've found work better for me.

Which traditions, if I may ask. I'm trying to understand this love of tradition, which I don't feel I have. Maybe if I have examples...

 

[ByMySword]

Which traditions, if I may ask. I'm trying to understand this love of tradition, which I don't feel I have. Maybe if I have examples...

My family is very religious.

So many of the traditions that I've dropped are based in religious beliefs, which pretty much affect other beliefs as well, i.e. political, ethical, moral, philisophical, etc.

 

[Cimarron]

Which traditions, if I may ask. I'm trying to understand this love of tradition, which I don't feel I have. Maybe if I have examples...

Usually when we think of traditions, we mean continuing doing things because of their emotional value. To us ISTJs, that can be important *(I'll give an example in a minute), but not as important as usefulness. I think for us, "SJ traditions" are almost like habits that we pick up, then never stop using. Kind of like...once we find a system that works, we just stick to that one consistently, until it becomes counterproductive. Then if we can be bothered getting off our rears, we'll find a new system to get comfortable with. ....I don't see how that's strictly related to values, but if someone tells us our "system" is wrong/foolish/misguided, we could be emotionally affected by it (and not just because of the verbal insult). I'm stretching, here. But people have made that observation about ISTJs.

*Semi-emotional example for me is the way I fold my napkin at the dinner table. My mom had always folded it that way for us when we were still little, so I've always folded it like that since. There's no reason to change it, so I've kept it the same. If someone were to tell me "that's a stupid way to fold a napkin", it would feel like an indirect insult to my mom. I wouldn't take too kindly.

I hope that's a good example...I'm going out on a limb here, I could be making stuff up.

 

[Kyrielle]

Usually when we think of traditions, we mean continuing doing things because of their emotional value. To us ISTJs, that can be important *(I'll give an example in a minute), but not as important as usefulness. I think for us, "SJ traditions" are almost like habits that we pick up, then never stop using. Kind of like...once we find a system that works, we just stick to that one consistently, until it becomes counterproductive. Then if we can be bothered getting off our rears, we'll find a new system to get comfortable with. ....I don't see how that's strictly related to values, but if someone tells us our "system" is wrong/foolish/misguided, we could be emotionally affected by it (and not just because of the verbal insult). I'm stretching, here. But people have made that observation about ISTJs.

Oddly enough, I've viewed "tradition" as the same thing. I think the term "good habits" is probably an accurate synonym. I think sometimes we do have traditions that have "emotional" value, but I would argue that the value is more symbolic (which could easily make said tradition a ritual). Like in your example. Your napkin folding has become a symbol that references your mother. Or. Lowering a flag to half-mast when someone dies. There's no rational reason for it. It doesn't do anything practical, but it's a symbol of respect to the life of that person.

To answer your question: As was agreed a few posts ago, the difference is just in how (and possibly why) rather than what. It's very likely that many SJs and NFs will share the same values, but their arrival to those conclusions will be quite different.

 

[animenagai]

i think NF's are kinda like kids that never stopped asking 'why'. why is it bad to lie? because honesty is a virtue? why is honesty a virtue? because if everybody lied... etc. therefore, for us traditions are only the first part of the question. it is the answer that was given due to certain circumstances. therefore, if we feel like the situation's changed in a significant way, we have no reason to follow those traditions.

personally, i think there are some things that there are things that always matter, and those are my values. these things are quite basic though such as compassion, honesty without a good reason to lie, having an open mind etc.

the thought of following traditions for the sake of traditions worry me, because it is like brainwashing yourself for the sake of it.

 

[Cimarron]

Oddly enough, I've viewed "tradition" as the same thing. I think the term "good habits" is probably an accurate synonym. I think sometimes we do have traditions that have "emotional" value, but I would argue that the value is more symbolic (which could easily make said tradition a ritual).

Interesting. Who else thinks that tradition can be described this way, and differentiated from Ideals?

 

[Bella]

Cimarron and ByMySword I got your answers only now. (Teh thread was broken)

 

[Bella]

When I think of tradition, I think of outdated, useless ideas and ways of doing things, that old, stubborn, people cling to.
And I think of that Robin Williams movie, Dead Poets Society.

 

[Anja]

Jack said something about rules and I think they are much more applicable for my husband than for me. Many of them are written in stone and seldom verbalized which can keep me guessing. I think he may have rules about his rules. Heh. Generally I have no idea I've broken one until after the fact.

The rules might be more concerned with how his values are expressed in action.

He's pretty dogged about doing/seeing things the way his family did. And since I was about twenty-five and realized that my parents weren't God, I've been weighing and questioning what I was taught by example with what fits for me.

Yeah, I think these guys, if not the movers and shakers of institutional and social tradition, are certainly good candidates for the enforcers of "The way it's always been and the way we're going to continue doing it." (Or else.)

As far as what values either of us is willing to relenquish, I think we've both learned that it is a neccessity if one isn't going to become a recluse but when either of us has to do so it is with great reluctance and discomfort.

 

[ajblaise]

When I think of tradition, I think of outdated, useless ideas and ways of doing things, that old, stubborn, people cling to.
And I think of that Robin Williams movie, Dead Poets Society.

You grew up around all that traditional and pro-apartheid sentiment in South Africa right? I see how that could veer one against traditionalism.

 

[Bella]

You grew up around all that traditional and pro-apartheid sentiment in South Africa right? I see how that could veer one against traditionalism.

Actually, by the time I nearly finished primary school, apartheid was on it's way out, so I was a part of the new generation (sort of). I didn't experience enough of it for myself, for it to influence a lot of my thinking etc.

 

[Bella]

Also, I don't really see apartheid as tradionalism. That's way too kind a word. "Stupidity" is more like it.

 

[Giggly]

The word on the street is that SJ's are supposed to be traditional (as in old-fashioned) and NF's are supposed to be more progressive-thinking, but I have certainly seen enough SJ's who are far from traditional and NF's who are the epitome of old-fashioned.

 

[Bella]

^ For sure.

 

[kiddykat]

The comment on rules/ideals is true.

In my experiences ESTJs tended to be the 'rule- makers.' Me: I'm a rule-breaker! I absolutely hate rules (laws like not running red lights or driving 25 mph in neighborhoods, fine. -When it comes to other peoples' lives- I'm respectfully cautious. Values? I abide by the golden-rule). Uptight, stringent rules? Strictness.. are something I cannot stand, at all.

When I read this question, I immediately thought of say. . . putting 2 people in an interview with strong SJ/NF tendencies. In this classic example ESTJ/ENFP: Imagine sir O'Reily (from the o'reily factor show) with a stereotypical free-spirited hippie sitting down in a discussion with one another. That's the main difference between two people who speak from 'ideals' vs. 'traditions,' someone who's more enthusiastically fascinated about what could be (ENFP) vs. someone who's firmly dictatorial on what should be, already is (ESTJ) . That's what defines the duality for me. Sometimes, they can meet half-way- if both parties make the effort to understand one another, IF. When they do, it could be an eerily pretty picture!

Not all NFs share the same ideal's though. My example comes from a personal experience from dealing with a family member of the identical ESTJ personality (and looks). I think I'm gonna have a heart-attack now.. Bye.

 

[Cimarron]

The rules might be more concerned with how his values are expressed in action.

What do you mean here? I think you're saying "rules" are the application of "SJ Values".

He's pretty dogged about doing/seeing things the way his family did.

Judging from the responses of SJs here and on other threads, I think there is often more to it than that. Perhaps not even the SJ himself would be able to put his finger on it, but...

The word on the street is that SJ's are supposed to be traditional (as in old-fashioned) and NF's are supposed to be more progressive-thinking, but I have certainly seen enough SJ's who are far from traditional and NF's who are the epitome of old-fashioned.

Or, taking the train of thought from Viv's post above this, maybe the SJs with "progressive" attitudes only developed those beliefs because they spent time with other people who had already held those beliefs. Then those beliefs were passed on to the SJ. But can't similar belief-transfer happen with the NF? Maybe not as easily and readily, since NFs say they are more likely to "question conventional ways"? A huge stumbling-block gets in the way when we consider SJs who live in an environment which shuns "following conventional ways". It may look almost predictably contrarian, it seems. Doing the opposite of what is popular and widely-accepted.

(Short Version: Many say that those NFs are choosing to be old-fashioned, whereas those SJs have become accustomed to being progressive.)




I was looking for more of the "how NFs build their beliefs" vs. "how SJs build their beliefs". Remember that both hold "abstract" values...but is their approach different? Their meaning? Their understanding? Their attachment?

I think we've touched the answer, but left it pretty vague. Something still seems not to be clicking in our analysis.

**Sorry for the incessant questioning. This state of not getting anywhere is a little frustrating, I guess.

 

[Anja]

Trying here. Still not exactly sure what the question is.

I thought Viv's llama vs. hatchet man was quite apt! Hee.

Here's the only other thought that comes to mind at present -

Since we've been talking about aging elsewhere I've been thinking about my husband and the changes I've seen. As a younger man he was more apt to try different ideas and attitudes and as he gets older he gets more set in his ways.

Many of those ways are the ways of his parents. That's probably true of us all to some extent. We tend to resort to the familiar.

It would be very difficult to imagine him, as he exists now, as a (responsible) hippy-type.

It's as though, once having done some exploration, he has settled upon what works best for him and fairly much refuses to budge from his solutions. As thought there was only one and, once found, he isn't going to go to any more effort to stretch with possibilities. It may exhaust him to do so.

This is probably true for most people with time. Everyone seeks "safety" and comfort. I suspect it is more rigid with SJs.

 

[Anja]

Oh. Wait a minute! You aren't tip-toeing here with whose values are the more appropriate are you?

 

[placebo]

So we often hear Ideals associated with NFs, that they hold their beliefs above most other things in life (within reason). And we hear that SJs hold their values above most other things in life (within reason). Thean what's the difference, besides semantics?

Is it solely in how they arrive at their ideals/values? That SJs usually derive their beliefs from others' around them, especially since we hear these mentioned with "traditions", and hold & cherish those; whereas NFs usually find beliefs on their own, rather than from outside sources, and hold & cherish those? I don't even think these observations hold true for SJs and NFs as I've outlined them here... But I'm asking, what could it be?

Main question: What's the difference?

I've seen SJ values played out with NF ideals most clearly between my mom and I. There's that parental-child aspect, but I think SJ and NF differences are definitely there. SJs stick with what they know works. What they have learned from. They like to stick with what they've learnt because they know it works and because it's their comfort zone. Ideals and things like that exist, but those are irrelevant when it comes to reality. I think they often like to take a lot of responsibility upon themselves and like to use what they know to potentially help others, or do what they think will help others. I think because of their experiences and their tendencies to take responsibility that that leads them to believing that rules and traditions are very important in keeping things together. NFs on the other hand don't really seem to need the same kind of structure. We don't react to reality the same way that SJs seem to. As an NF I can see the importance of tradition and the importance of rules, but I can also see so much more beyond that and the possibilities. It seems maybe SJs are scared/uncomfortable going beyond what they already have learnt, while NFs see many more possibilities out of what we have already experienced.