[NT] Feeling manipulated

[substitute]

Thanks kora

Yeah well it's not just socializing at all, but the particular friends she has there that she's attached to. It's become apparent to me that she just attaches to things in a way that's quite alien to me, and in the past when I've sorta wrenched her out of situations that, in the bigger picture sorta view, I've believed were not beneficial, she's resented me later for separating her from these people she was attached to, way more than I could've anticipated.

I wish there were another drama group for her to go to - sadly, this is Lincolnshire, a very large but very unpopulated area of England, where not a lot goes on for kids at all, let alone stuff that's affordable, really... but like I say even if I did find her something else to do, she'd still resent being taken away from those friends at the youth group.

It's easy for me to say 'but you'll make new friends' - the idea of THOSE friends meaning so much is a bit odd to me - not that my friends don't mean a lot to me as well but it's just that level of emotional attachment she has, y'know? I'm a bit petrified of uh, violating it? Is that the right word??

But... just to clarify, this isn't an isolated kid we're talking about, the youth group isn't like her only chance to socialize or anything like that, she has a lot of friends and other stuff she does elsewhere.

 

[Mort Belfry]

Sorry Mort, I guess the Simon Amstell thing misled me... lol

I live in New Zealand, where there's a deficit of good comedy. So I've had to steal from the UK all my life.

I think I'll just have a chat with her and let her know that whilst I'm more than happy to go to see her plays at school or drama club or whatever, she'll just have to accept that at church I probably won't for the time being...

That's probably all you can do. I'm out of advice and I think I'm out of my depth. You sound like you have more patience than I would.

 

[Kora]

I see your point there... I didn't thought about that because I'm also that detached.
Can't she see her friends out of the church?

 

[substitute]

I see your point there... I didn't thought about that because I'm also that detached.
Can't she see her friends out of the church?

She does see the one or two who live on the same estate as us, but only rarely - they all go to different schools, y'know, with homework and whatever else, and the distances involved, it's not really logistically feasible.

 

[Kora]

What a mess... I can't think of anything else.
On another issue, won't the church treat her differently if you're an 'outcast'? Watch that, she might not tell you anything.
I'm afraid that sooner or later you'll have to take her out of there.

 

[Owl]

I didn't mean to imply that you were pretending everything is OK. (I apologise for my poor sentence construction).

What we believe matters, and if you can't go without appearing to accept all that goes along with regular attendance, then you shouldn't go.

Teaching K that there are things of more value in life than mere socialising and that we should have integrity between what we say and what we do is more valuable than the warm fuzzies she'll get by seeing you in the audience.

 

[Mort Belfry]

On another issue, won't the church treat her differently if you're an 'outcast'? Watch that, she might not tell you anything.

I was thinking about that. In fact I was wondering if part of her wanting you to attend isn't indirectly at their insistence. If she is made to feel different from other children who's parents participate.

 

[Mort Belfry]

Teaching K that there are things of more value in life than mere socialising and that we should have integrity between what we say and what we do is more valuable than the warm fuzzies she'll get by seeing you in the audience.

That might be hard to teach to a twelve year old Fe-dom.

As a Ti-dom at that age could you have been taught that there are things of more value in life than mere integrity and that we should all be out socialising? I know I couldn't have been.

 

[Kora]

As a Ti-dom at that age could you have been taught that there are things of more value in life than mere integrity and that we should all be out socialising? I know I couldn't have been.

Neither me *sighs*.

 

[substitute]

What a mess... I can't think of anything else.
On another issue, won't the church treat her differently if you're an 'outcast'? Watch that, she might not tell you anything.
I'm afraid that sooner or later you'll have to take her out of there.

well, it could be that she'll get bored of it of her own accord... I dunno... hope springs eternal!

Nah I don't think the 'outcast' thing is anything to worry about, one of the reasons I chose high church anglican was because it's not cultish like that, one is free to come and go in most cases without being judged or questions asked*... I think this case is just a bit anomalous because my role as a parent (in the pure, secular sense) is being confused with my role as a parent in the spiritual sense...

Mort - most of the parents only participate when their kids are giving performances... edit - and then, not always!

*it's the closest I could find to RC in that respect, since RC won't have me and TBH, as it is today, I won't have it either!!

 

[Mort Belfry]

Mort - most of the parents only participate when their kids are giving performances...

Carpool?

 

[JivinJeffJones]

What is it with ENTPs and (over?)sensitivity towards manipulation?

I wrote a long paragraph addressing your situation, and then struck from it all assumptions. What's left: don't go to the church, but let your daughter go.

 

[Eileen]

I think I'll just have a chat with her and let her know that whilst I'm more than happy to go to see her plays at school or drama club or whatever, she'll just have to accept that at church I probably won't for the time being...

I think this is a good thing to do. I, for one, am very in favor of you giving your kid independence to choose whether she attends or not. And an attempt to explain your absence from those events as an issue with the church, NOT as a lack of support for her, may be helpful. Granted--she's twelve, so she may have trouble understanding... but eventually she'll get it.

I'm curious about your frustrations with the church at the moment, but that's not really relevant to the topic at hand. Suffice to say, as a fellow Anglican, I can relate to frustration with the church, though as an Episcopalian, I find much to be encouraged by.

 

[Owl]

That might be hard to teach to a twelve year old Fe-dom.

As a Ti-dom at that age could you have been taught that there are things of more value in life than mere integrity and that we should all be out socialising? I know I couldn't have been.

...




You've got a point.

Integrity is more important. Fe-dom's will just have to accept our authorita!

 

[substitute]

What is it with ENTPs and (over?)sensitivity towards manipulation?

Something about freewill being some sort of prerequisite for integrity, which is like, a value... or something

I wrote a long paragraph addressing your situation, and then struck from it all assumptions. What's left: don't go to the church, but let your daughter go.

Haha, yeah... glad to know I'm already doing the only realistic choice

Eileen - maybe it's just the C of E over here, or even just this diocese, I don't know, but it seems to me that the organization is inherently set up in a way that inevitably results in it all being little more than a "middle class, middle aged" club. I wrote something about it here, but this only scratches the surface...

 

[Colors]

Just to the OP: Suck it up. From a child's perspective, it can be incredibly hurtful to not have parental support at a special event or "performance", Fe-dom or no.

It wasn't as if she chose a church youth group out a phone book. She hasn't had the religuous choices/chances you've had. She chose to go this church or go to none. She chose to be with you instead of not.

You said yourself that the youth group isn't harmful to her- and if it is the hypocrisy of the clergy which gets your goat- neither of which I think is exemplified by these performance pieces (led by volunteers). Even if there *is* the intention to put your butt in the seat in the Anglican church- if your religious convictions are that integritous, it shouldn't matter whether or not you hear any such stuff. Their intentions may be to "reconvert" you, but you are there to support your daughter.

 

[Tallulah]

I relate to your situation, but I also think that you're placing a little too much importance on your integrity, as opposed to supporting your daughter. I was never a kid that required my parents to go to every single thing I was in, but I do know that for a lot of kids, it's very, very important--and that they feel kind of unanchored without it. And even as an NT, it would hurt if I found out that you had actually thought of it as "choosing your spiritual integrity over her." (I know you wouldn't tell her that, but still....) I understand the struggle, but at the same time, it seems to me that you could sit through a few performances for her sake. Just focus on your daughter the whole time, instead of thinking about hypocrisy and manipulation and what the church will assume by your presence there.

If I were you, I'd explain to your daughter as best you can that you're choosing not to go to church right now, but it's fine if she attends. And that you love her, but the two of you will have to reach a compromise. If these things are monthly, maybe tell her you'll come to 5 performances a year, and she can pick which five.

I don't think, overall, it's a terrible thing for parents not to attend every single performance their kid is in, though. I mean, there is no way I'd be able to force myself to spend all my Saturdays watching 10 year olds play soccer. But you just need to be careful that she doesn't feel as if you've chosen something (even your integrity) over her. Kids don't really understand something like that.

 

[substitute]

Well, actually I just had a long talk with her and things are fine. She actually said "Most of these things are only about 2 or 3 minutes long and I'm only there because they pressure me to take part, I don't really want to but I know if I don't take part then they won't have enough people so I don't want to hurt [the leader]'s feelings. It's not like I work really hard on it or anything, it doesn't really mean much to me anyway, so it doesn't bother me if you don't come."

She's actually aware, she told me, that she feels manipulated herself, into taking part at all. She says she feels emotionally pressured into supporting the performances but actually resents the way they tie her up and commit her to extra rehearsals and stuff when she'd rather be doing other stuff. She also said, in her own words "they only do the plays to make us have to keep going because of rehearsals, cos otherwise most of the kids don't go every week".

So, it seems in my anxiousness to not tread on her feelings or underestimate the importance of them, I'd actually overestimated those feelings anyway. She also said "you always come to all my other stuff so I know you support me".

So there, Tallulah-and-colors-I'm-used-to-you-both-always-telling-me-off-now

 

[Tallulah]

So there, Tallulah-and-colors-I'm-used-to-you-both-always-telling-me-off-now

Oh, yeah, well, I'm used to you always soliciting feedback for the choice you wanted to make in the first place. So there!

Glad things worked out for you.

 

[Colors]

I'm glad y'all came to an understanding too.